This song is about Scotland, but it’s pretty much true for any country. When I see someone around here celebrating General Lee, do they not realize that the slave states were really pretty close to fascist police states?
They cleared us off once and they’d do it all again
For they still prefer sheep to thinking men
Ah, but men who think like sheep are even better
Always been a big fan of this song and of Dick Gaughan in general.
Reminds me of Ewan MacColl, and takes me back to the far off days of the folksong revival in which I was just a little involved.
Elizabeth
For real? :)
Yes, I`m really that old! I knew MacColl a little, and found him a bit scary – very forceful hard line Marxist.
Elizabeth
Those over the border will soon be voting on whether to regain independence but, whatever the result of the vote, all of us on this island will basically remain as one one people, we can be sure of that.
A lot of Scots and even some Welsh would argue with you on “one people” !
Elizabeth
Oh, are you going to crush them with your military might?
Don`t get this, Dave…what war are you expecting?
Elizabeth
I think he’s expecting Braveheart II.
I think we ran out of woad some years ago…
Elizabeth
Or Kosovo.
For heaven’s sake Dave, get a grip! My grandfather is Scottish and there are so many Scots that live in England and shock horror, Scots that fraternize with the enemy and marry sassernachs. And vice versa. At one time not so long ago, most of the English parliament was of Scottish origin. There’s going to be no war between our countries, particularly not like what happened in the Balkans.
OMG, you were serious! There is no likelihood of ethnic cleansing here. The official definition of a Scot is “someone resident in Scotland”. If you became domiciled here, you would be a Scot. We don`t want to fight the English….we just want to run our own country.
If Quebec had won their referendum, did they plan to declare war on Canada?
Elizabeth
Not war. :D Terrorism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_de_lib%C3%A9ration_du_Qu%C3%A9bec
To my knowledge we have no nationalist terrorists. We have enough to do with the Islamic ones.
Elizabeth
Until Scottie approves the other comment (since it has two links on Quebec’s history), I was joking. :)
We often in classes refer to Britain as a country of violent oppressors considering their attitude toward their former colonies overseas in the East India, the Suez Canal crisis et cetera. So, we often joked that if Scotland separates, they won’t take no for an answer and send in the military as per historical precedents.
Yeah, because half of Europe stayed at home and didn’t sail out to scrap with us over what they could squeeze out of most of the known world over the last 500 years. What do you think of the French, Spanish, Dutch, Portugese – need I go on?
But ignoring that and concentrating on the days of the British empire, most of the population of England were too busy to be violent oppressors as we were usually being violently oppressed ourselves. We were working down mines and in cotton mills 12 hours a day often 7 days a week from about the age of 5 for a pittance that just about afforded one room in a back to back slum and half empty belly. It was the upper classes then and now who indulge in wars and empire building to line their already jingling pockets. The vast majority of us literally slaved away to support that minority. The only difference is we were born into it rather than shipped halfway round the world either in or out of Great Britain. The only chance you had of seeing foreign lands if you were working class was getting trenchfoot and being shot at in in a hole in the ground somewhere in mainland Europe. So yes, tally ho and unleash the hounds Jeeves! I’m just going to chase a fox on horseback for breakfast and in the afternoon decide to reinstate the days of the Raj.
If it makes you feel any better, the population of at least 3 cities, including London, the (relatively) ethnic Brits are in the minority. Waves of new settlers has always been the way here since before the last ice age. We’re a nation of mongrels when it comes down to it.
Well, the Dutch did invade. The Glorious Revolution started with a Dutch invasion from Devon.
“It was the upper classes then and now who indulge in wars and empire building to line their already jingling pockets. ”
And the good ol’ US of A has proudly carried on that tradition.
Getting tasered and a slap on the wrist for public disorder rather than hung, drawn and quartered is going to make for a crap movie.
I was just thinking about the latest debate in Canada when the New Democratic Party of Canada proposed replacing the vague Clarity Act, which didn’t state how many votes Quebec need for a referendum, with another act of their own which propose a 50+1 simple majority was proposed.
Then I started thinking about how the United Nations historically supported the 50+1 simple majority, and every attempt to ignore it by the ruling country usually end in bloodshed.
Grammar is shoddy. Ew.
“…do they not realize that the slave states were really pretty close to fascist police states?”
They don’t care to hear it. Their’s is an idealized GWTWesque fantasy of white gentility w/ happy “blackies” singing and dancing their way through life w/o a care in the world.
Its not all that different a paradigm from the aspirations and dreams of the group of old white men who lost in this last election. Their mantra was a need to go back to the halcyon days of the mid 20th Century, w/ Jim Crow, segregation, deregulation, workhouses and robber barons.
These folks have yet to realize that neither of those genies is likely to go back into the bottle. The era of white, protestant control of US politics is at an end. We need a new national paradigm.
Of course the corps are trying to install their own version of a police state but I get the feeling that the up and coming generation is wise to them.
Hi Elizabeth,
Speaking as a geordie with a scots grandfather and married to a Welsh speaker but now with lovely south English grandchildren, I’m comforted in my confusion by the feeling that nationalism in this small space of ours is seeming a bit last century. With anglo saxons now a minority in what used to be ‘their’capital city, keep nationalism just as fun for the sports field don’t you think.
Let`s just wait and see how the referendum goes – and I`m not predicting anything on that one.
Elizabeth
PS: Elizabeth. We’ve just experienced the best Olympics ever and we were definitely one nation on that great occasion this summer, you’ll agree, I’m sure? You are very clever, Retrieverman, slyly orchestrating these provocative subjects for us.
No. I have no dog in this fight. Jut don’t wind up like Yugoslavia, where the Croatians and Serbs are closely related but hate each other.
Well, we had “The Troubles” in Ireland, which has been not totally wiped out but diffused to a great extent, so it’s not unknown for the countries making up our islands to be at war up to quite recently. However, much of the professed hate is a very small but empty vessel like vocal minority or a bit of harmless fun to rib one another about. Like much territorial unrest between neighbours, most of us just want to get along and have a quiet life rather than get caught up in things started by power crazed wannabe tinpot dictators with an ulterior motive other than nationalism.
There’s a damn sight more antipathy and unrest brewing between communities within England than between what are our kith and kin in the countries that make up the British Isles. Some of the wooden spoon brigade holding on to their idealised version of the past and future would do to remember that your enemies enemy isn’t necessarily your friend.
Very true.
Elizabeth
I think that I can class myself as an ethnic occitanian ,you know Occiiania that great country that run from Val d’Aran in norther Spain throuth south France and spreads with many enclaves untill Calabria in south Italy (wikipedia is not correct ).
My old Dad is from the italian side of Occitania my old Mum is from the french one I grew up speaking both italian and french but not occitanian
Despite the fact that my parents used untill their divorce argue in occitanian they did not speak with me and my sister in occitanian because untill about 25 years ago occitanian was classed as a dialect spoken by ignorant people.
Now a day it is fashionable go to class to try to learn occitanian and all the others european minority languages…the world changes sometime for the better sometime fot the worst.
To me this new interest for the small nation w/o a country is a very good think.
I want an Europe of the people and not an Europe of bankers and globalized zombies!
About the referendum in Canada : as the general De Gaulle screamed :
VIVE LE QUEBEC LIBRE !!!
Sorry for the grammar and spelling!
Regards
Scottish people’s aspiration for freedom is for real. Watch this video ;-)
Absolutely brilliant! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve ended up yelling at a computerized “help” menu. (And my pronunciation is pretty damn close to median American.) Freedom!
Latest indications are that the Scots will vote “NO” to complete independence. They already have their own laws on many things, but the idea of passports being shown at Gretna Green is absolutely stupid.
The passport idea is a nonsense, of course. Lots of these stupid scare notions are being put around by those who do not know any better.
And neither you not I know what the result of the referendum will be – it is not till 2014 .
Elizabeth
I was watching a tv programme last night which reminded us in England how in many cases we won so many battles, especially around the 18th century, often with less troops deployed than on ther other side. The reason, according to this programme was the fearsome courage of clansmen recruited into the British army during the period of colonial expansion. Earlier on in the 18th century, the clansmen defeated the British army with their “highland charges” where the clan warriors would charge into the “thin red line” push aside rifles and bayonets and thrust their swords through the gap thus created. But by the time of the fateful and decisive battle of Culloden in 1746 the English had devised a way of dealing with these tactics: basically each front rank English soldier ignored the clansman coming at him from the front but thrust his rifle and bayonet at the clansman to the right of the one coming directly at him. The other game changer was that the English army recruited large numbers of clansmen into their own ranks. So this change in tactics plus disunity among Scottish clans caused bonny prince Charlie’s army to lose. The aftermath was then tragic with the atrocities commited against the clansmen and their families, not only by the English but by their fellow Scots on the other side.That was the end of the clan system. Years later the highland clearances did the rest. This is partly why north americans and antipodeans include many with Scottish ancestors. So yes, if there are enough Scots familiar and emotionally involved with their history of this time then who knows how it may affect the vote on independence.
My own family surname is from the defunct Davidson clan. It seems this clan lost in battle with a neighbouring one and as a result the remnants of clan Davidson dispersed, some to over the border. This may explain, I like to think, why the are so many Davidsons and Dawsons in the northern phone books of today – well maybe.