Golden retrievers like the snow and cold, but they have a design flaw that will forever prevent them from being true arctic dog.
The fur that grows on the webbing between their toes collects snow. If a dog has been running for several miles, the snow actually builds up into very compact little ice balls.
And then the dog dog has to stop and chew them out of their fur.
Or you can come along and pluck them out.
Miley only did the former for about ten seconds– just enough for a photo– and then I plucked them out.
Ditto for rough coat Saints. I suspect that this is another reason those folks up in N.E. Canada preferred smooth-coated dogs.
Yes. Labs never have this problem.
For some reason my rough coated Central Asian Shepherd never has this problem, despite fuzzy toes. My Borzoi got terribly icicles on his furnishings, though, especially the fur hanging from his belly. It looked like wind chimes after a long walk in our sloppy wet southern snow.
I think the fur of most LGDs is a totally different texture to even a breed like a longcoat Saint. My Tibetan Mastiff has plenty of fur all over, but even when we occasionally have heavy snow for several weeks that he constantly flops down and rolls over in, he never gets snow clinging to his coat or between his toes.
It would definitely make sense. It’s a very hard coat, after all, even the longer ones.
Ten to one the TMs were bred for it. The Saints on the other hand started out as smooth coats so the rough coats are an aberration from the point of view of that particular ong term breeding program.
I have a Kuvasz, which is an LGD breed too. He has double coat that hardly gets wet, he also rolls over in the snow continually, enjoys sitting out in -17 degree C, but has ice balls accumulating under his toes that I have to clear every 45 to 60 minutes of my long hikes with him.
Other than the ice ball thing, he is a perfect sled dog, or hike-joring dog, who likes to pull me out of deep snow all the time. He just senses that his old man is finding it difficult and then he takes on the role of a hike-joring dog.
Golden retrievers are oily dogs. Oily, oily. I wonder if that makes a difference. Golden retrievers are so oily they always have a least some smell to them.
Coats on different Goldens can vary widely. The dead-straight, soft “open” coats are not at all weather-resistant, can sop up huge amounts of water, and are certainly not what is correct for this breed. (although apparently popular with some show peoplel). Proper coats are double, with a firm outercoat that lies over the dense, softer but still water-resistant undercoat. Very like a duck’s feathers overlay the insulating down. These dogs can come out of the water, shake, and be nearly dry, with water never penetrating to the skin. The same coat is equally protective in snow. It is actually very different from any of the other Sporting dogs. A good Labrador coat is very similar but without the feathering, and a bit shorter over-all.
In Goldens, I think proper texture is more contributory to this weather-proof quality than is oiliness. Good Goldens smell just like good healthy dogs, certainly not the smellthat seems to be characteristic of so many hounds.
They don’t stink like hounds, but they do have an odor.
I agree with M.R.S. There are remarkable variations in the quality. Bob the Lab has so good coat, that when he goes to swim when it’s below zero (freezing), he only rubs himself in the dry snow and is perfectly dry when we arrive home. On the contrary, my younger Lab has to be toweled afterwards – he has a bit longer coat than Bob’s, and it’s not that dense either.
That oiliness is one of the things that makes me thing our Maggie is part Golden. (Tough I suspect that other water dogs would also have this property.) On the other hand, Sammie wasn’t oily at all and he got iceballs between his toes. I think its the feathering between the toes above all else that cause the problem. I don’t know whether rough-coated breeds w/ webbing between their toes get the iceballs or not. I would think not, but maybe someone w/ some experience w/ them can enlighten me.
My Kuvasz boy is oily too. The breeder had asked us never to bath him, because the oil excretion automatically keeps the dirt out. We observed that no dirt / muck remains on his coat for long duration of time. When we wanted to bath him in summer, he consumed entire shampoo bottle with me and my son trying to penetrate his inner coat and his skin with the lather. We are not going to try it again.
During walks in snow, he also collects ice balls under his pad, that I have to pull / pluck out. I took him out late last night and early this morning in knee deep snow left by yesterday’s Alberta Clipper, and had to remove those ice balls every now and then.
However, I must say his tolerance for pain is high. He never limps and tries to lick them out. It’s just an uneasiness from this human that makes it do for him.
That’s interesting about the oily coat and I wonder if that’s why my TM doesn’t get balled up with ice even though he has plenty hair between his toes. Tibetan Mastiffs have very little oil in their coats and he has no doggy odour at all even when wet. Funnily enough he’s also very dirt resistant and even if I let mud dry on his coat it falls out and leaves his coat sparkling clean. Usually I just give him a quick wipe with a wrung out microfiblre cloth or a towel and he’s clean again. I call him the teflon dog as nothing sticks. The only time he’s been shampooed is when he rolls in something truly disgusting and sticky like a dead animal that’sso far gone it’s slimy. Even then it’s a quick spot clean as neither the shampoo or the putrid cack he rolled in penetrated his undercoat. I’d hate to give him a full shampoo as I get the feeling I’d be in the same position as you with your Kuvasz.
If one examines hairs microscopically, differences can be found between types of hair. The “self-cleaning” type of hair I’d guess has a smooth cuticle (outer surface) due either to structure, or to a waxy or oily secretion, or both. Diameter and cross-section shape of the hairshaft can also be factors, and no doubt there are others, both inherent and acquired.
That’s almost nothing, but take a look at this Aussie’s snowballs :
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uWTzebJ2pKA/UPMXRlDJqGI/AAAAAAAAC1s/fMFtt6aw5rc/s640/IMG_3736b.jpg
Our black cocker had the “modern” cocker coat– very soft and profuse. Once, we took him on a walk in the snow with the Golden. Had to carry poor Ebony home when the snowballs in his hair froze his four legs together and he couldn’t walk! Took quite some time to defrost him in a warm bath. After that, he was kept in a short “puppy cut” for the rest of his 15 years.
Miley’s coat looks soft, almost silky. That kinda coat has no resistant against wetting. Originally best water dogs had a resistant coat, but the breeding has resulted a number of unqualified coats in the population. Quite few have the perfect coat.
Her coat is actually very hard and dense. It’s not at all like those of show dogs.
Super like this comment in FB terminology.
The breed’s father Tweedmouth designed the dog as much to be an up-land hunter. And later when it was bred with the Flat Coats, the “stylish impact” was toned. I have seen small red hunting Goldens with their silky coats. Let me see where the dog dips into sea and comes back with the water running off the back like oil. I haven’t seen any instant dry / oily enough Golden, they are all wet thru’. There are really few waterfowlers, if no-one, using a Golden.
“There are really few waterfowlers, if no-one, using a Golden.”
….in Finland.
In North America, it’s the second most common duck dog.
Surely it’s that popular breed, but where do you find the data people use it in waterfowling ? I’ve seen a statistic somewhere where the Springer is used more.
Just look up AKC statistics on retriever trials, which breeds win the most titles.
Springers can’t be used for the entire duck season because our duck seasons are in the winter, and their coats are quite inferior to golden retrievers (not enough undercoat).
Springers aren’t really meant to be waterfowl dogs. There aren’t even that many springer spaniels in the United States, especially working ones.
The problem is you live in Finland were 99 percent of the golden retrievers are crap. You’ve likely never seen the working dogs, because the English sold you all the half-retarded polar bears they had.
I see a lot more field-bred Golden Retrievers and Labs used for duck-hunting than any other breed. Springier Spaniels are competing with Brittney, English Pointer and German Pointer for popularity as flushing and pointing dogs.
However, the six months spent in Finland in nine months, I have yet to see a field-bred Golden Retriever. Most of them are the type which started winning in Swedish show-rings.
Goldens were used extensively in the Upper Midwest of the USA (and still are) and the Northern Flyway for wild fowling. Bart Armstrong, who imported Goldens back in the 1920s, wrote a letter telling how he much preferred his first Golden to any of the other breeds he had, including Springers and Labradors, for retrieving geese from the wild rivers in Manitoba.
Even though the Tweedmouth dogs may not have been used so much as wild fowling dogs as for upland, remember that the damp cold of Scotland, and the heavy wet cover, still required that insulating, protective coat.
It is true that the classic weather-resistant coat is far less commonly found today than in years past, especially in show-bred lines. Such is “progress”, unfortunately.
Hmmm…is it because the hair is soft and not stiff, like a husky’s? Speaking of design flaws, I got into a “discussion” with a guy who has Newfs who was ranting against Newf breeders who are selecting for dry mouths. I asked him why anyone would WANT a dog that slobbers, and he insisted his didn’t, and yet it was “correct” according to the standard. When I pointed out that if it was correct, and correct muzzles didn’t drool, then why would people be specifically breeding for dry mouth? he said he didn’t want a dog that looked like a fat retriever and that the Newf mouth is designed to enable them to breathe while they carry things as they are swimming. (Sounds just like the argument for pushed in faces among the bulldog people) I said retrievers don’t seem to have too much trouble with that, and he got huffy and said how would I like it if people started breeding Bostons with longer muzzles? I told him I like it fine, and that is, in fact, what I did with mine.
Scottie, FOR SHAME that you don’t have any Musher’s Secret!
Musher's Secret Pet Paw Protector Wax, 7-Ounce
It’ll also make Miley’s pads soft as pillows. ^.^
I like my dogs with rough pads.
I could understand using that stuff if there’s injuries under the paw, or if it’s a racing Husky.Normally working, healthy skinned dogs don’t need that.
Normal, healthy skinned dogs generally use it to prevent snowballing, not for paw injuries. Even our working cocker with much less feathering needs it as he still gets a bit of snow balling between the toes when he’s been out for running for a while. We don’t apply on the paw pads as pads should be rough and calloused to prevent injury while walking. The wax is applied only on the hair between the toes and slicked onto the feathering on the legs. Works wonders.
Oh really ?? Many of those wise dog owners just trim the hair short . It makes more sense than waxing the paws, and then only getting more grid carried to the house.
Even trimming the hair short does not completely prevent snowballing between the toes. You obviously wouldn’t understand unless you’ve had to deal with this situation with your own dogs. My worker cocker has significantly less hair than the show type, but after a couple of hours running in the snow, you’re going to see snowballing regardless of whether you trim the hair to the pad or not. I haven’t had any issue with wax carrying dirt into the house either.
Your dog gets snowballs stuck in its SKIN? Is it made of velcro?
Not the skin, the fur between the toes.
But if Jakisjackass trims the hair to the pad there’s no fur for snowballs to get stuck in.
Apparently you don’t take the time to read what people write before replying as I specifically stated that “you’re going to see snowballing regardless of whether you trim the hair to the pad or not.” Obviously this is something we already do to help prevent snowballing and it only works to a certain degree. If you’re a typical dog walker that sticks to pavement or the road with a leashed dog then this might work well enough. When you have a working cocker that is running off the leash through snow blanketed forests and fields for over 2 hours a day then just trimming the paws isn’t going to enough. Breeds that have webbed paws and are medium to heavy coated are going to have a good amount of hair growing between the toes below the pad level. That is where the snowballs work their way in and this is why we invest in paw wax to prevent any of that from happening.
woah alright, a) my dog runs off leash for hours in chest deep snow, b) has a heay coat, c) webbed paws, and d) long tufts of fur between her toes if i don’t trim. i use a clipper between pads and webbing – no snowballing. if wax works for you that’s cool, but trimming works too
I suppose you won’t get snowballing if you clip below the pad level and between the webbing. I never clipper my dog, because that ruins the coat in a cocker, and I was always told never to trim any of the hair below the pad level as that hair protects the dog from possible injury while running about. Out of everything we’ve tried paw wax works best for us and our dogs so we’ll stick with it.
I like using http://tinyurl.com/d4ghyx8 . Bag Balm is made for cow utters but it helps with your dog’s pads. One of my Goldens is relentless about running in the snow long stretches. She would stay out there all day if I let her. Her feet will sometimes bleed from the snow and ice. I tried several different types of boots on her but they invariably end up lost on our hikes. The Bag Balm was recommended by a breeder and seems to help with the pads and snow balls. I wonder how it compares to the Musher’s Secret, it looks like a similar product. It also lasts for a long time… you don’t need a lot of it.
i use baby oil mist spray on my cockers and sheltie to stop ice balls works a treat and a lot cheaper than the mushers secret.
Tracey,
Do you use them on inside of the pads also? My boy accumulates them over and under (inside pads) his paws.
I have the same problem with my saluki. I use thin dog booties made of cordura.
https://www.dogbooties.com/shop/330-denier-cordura-booties-bundle-of-250/
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