From The State Journal:
Agriculture Commissioner Walt Helmick believes he has the solution to West Virginia’s coyote problem.
Helmick is looking at establishing a bounty to encourage hunters to kill the critters.
He said coyotes are the state’s biggest predator problem. They are in all 55 counties and pose a threat to both farm animals and domestic pets.
“More of them are being born than we’re removing. They’re winning the battle,” Helmick told The Register-Herald of Beckley.
“We spend a significant amount of money on predator control. About half a million dollars. The feds helped us out a few years ago but aren’t doing anything at all now. We’ve lost the federal support.”
Under Helmick’s plan, coyotes would be trapped and their ears would be marked with an identifying number. They would then be released in a different area. Hunters who kill a coyote marked with a number would receive a bounty.
“Hunters will be out there all the time, looking for this type of opportunity, and will probably kill another 25 trying to get to that one, or maybe even kill 100 of them,” he said.
Details of the plan, such as the bounty amount, are still being worked out.
Helmick wants to expand the state’s sheep industry. But he said that will be difficult unless the coyote population is reduced.
“I know we have a problem with the sheep industry,” he said.
“And the coyote is not all the problem, but it’s a significant part. For the rebirth or growth of the sheep industry, it would be almost impossible with the amount of coyotes we now have on the loose.”
If this plan is implemented, West Virginia will learn the hard way what a waste of money a bounty system for coyotes actually is.
For some perspective, the coyotes that live in West Virginia are derived from ancestors that first encountered Europeans on the Great Plains.
Those settlers then spent a hundred years trapping and poisoning coyotes left and right all the way to the Pacific Ocean.
The results?
Coyotes are now found in every province in Canada and every state in the US except Hawaii. If they were better swimmers, they would do fine in Hawaii.
Their range now runs from Alaska to Panama.
And all those millions and millions of dollars spent on killing them has only resulted in them expanding them.
I have no problem with hunting coyotes, but we are kidding ourselves if we think we can significantly reduce their numbers through a trapping and hunting bounty lottery.
If we couldn’t reduce their numbers on the Great Plains, where it’s very open, you can forget about reducing their numbers in dense, brushy places like West Virginia.
Coyotes are here, and they are going to stay.
You can hunt them and trap them, but we’re always going to have them.
Furthermore, Helmick’s understanding of trapping is pretty weak.
If you trap a dog in a fox trap and then let it go, that dog will never be caught in the same kind of trap again. Dogs are not stupid animals, and many old trappers trained their dogs to stay out of their traps by setting some to catch the dogs.
Once caught, the dogs become trap-wise.
This plan, which involves catching a coyote and then turning it loose in the hopes that it will be caught again, is really quite stupid.
A coyote has far more sense than any dog, and the chances of a trapper ever being able to catch one of those marked coyotes are really quite low, and we would have to pay trappers to catch the coyotes in the first place.
There really isn’t that much of a sheep industry in West Virginia. You can drive all over the state and go 50 or 6o miles without seeing a single sheep. So this policy really isn’t helping a major industry in the state. It’s just giving a few select sheep producers so assurance that the state is doing something.
A much better use of taxpayer money would be to encourage sheep farmers to keep a donkey among their flocks.
Donkeys hate anything that looks like a dog, and they will also bond very strongly to whatever animals are in their pasture.
So a donkey is the ideal weapon against coyote predation upon flocks.
But politicians like to look like they’re doing something.
This coyote bounty lottery scheme will not reduce coyote numbers. It will cost the taxpayer money.
It will look like we’re doing something.
But we’re just wasting more government funds.
But I guess that only matters when Obama does it.
In the early 80s I was doing a weekly column on wildlife for the local paper, a small-town rag that eventually went out of business, and one of our state legislatures called me and told me there was a public hearing at the state house on a proposed bounty on coyotes, and invited me to show up.
I knew there was a lot of contention between the pro-coyote and anti-coyote groups in the state, with a lot of hunters blaming the coyotes on poor takes during the annual deer hunting season, and the pro-coyote people wanting them given something like a sacred status. Farmers were pretty much evenly divided, but with those losing stock to coyotes echoing the hunters in their belief that coyotes were the demons of forest and field.
The day of the meeting at the state house I entered the rotunda, where the hearing had been moved due to so many people attending, and the state representative who told me about the hearing saw me and came up and welcomed me, and then asked me to sign a clipboard he was carrying. I noticed about eight names on the board before me, but gave it little thought, thinking it might just be a list people he had told about the hearing.
Once the hearing got under way it became apparent that one of the main areas of complaint was that farmers were losing livestock to coyotes and nut not getting compensated for it. It seems that, at least at that point in time, if a farmer lost stock to a bobcat or bear, the state paid for it out of the Fish and Game Fund, and if the stock was killed by dogs, the farmer was compensated by the town dog tax fund, but if coyotes had done the killing, no one paid the farmer a thing; there was no Vermont law that compensated a farmer for stock lost to coyotes. And it apparently was town fathers who investigated killed livestock, and decided what had killed it. Listening to the assumed experts who were explaining how to tell if a coyote or dog had done the killing, it became apparent they knew little about canids, and were assuming any livestock killed relatively cleanly and attacked in the neck area were killed by coyotes, and if the livestock, primarily sheep, were killed in a messy way, such as being attacked in their hindquarters with a great deal of wool being pulled out, they would rule the killings done by dogs. So town officials were investigating livestock killings, proclaiming them the work of coyotes (perhaps so they didn’t have to compensate the farmer out of town funds), and many more killings were being attributed to coyotes than they were actually doing.
After about four people had spoken I realized they were calling all speakers off the clipboard I had signed upon entering the rotunda. It turned out the legislator who told me about the meeting, and had me sign the clipboard as I entered had listed me as one of his expert speakers; something I originally had no intention of doing.
Fortunately by the time my name was called to speak I had a pretty good idea of what the general argument for both sides was, and centered my talk on the fact that I believed the way a canid kills isn’t due to the species involved (coyote vs. dog in this case), but by the experience of each individual animal. A dog experienced at killing stock would kill more “cleanly” than an inexperienced coyote taking on sheep for the first time. I also voiced my opinion that it would be unwise to put a bounty on coyotes.
There was a great deal of heated discussion both for and against the bounty that day, and one pro-coyote/anti-bounty speaker said that he feared that if there was a bounty on coyotes, people’s dogs would be shot more often. A hunter or farmer in the audience spoke up out of turn, and said he “Doubted responsible hunters would be shooting dogs, mistaking them for coyotes.” The speaker responded that as long as responsible hunters were shooting thousand pound, black and white cows, mistaking them for deer, he thought there could possibly be a problem.
Fortunately, in the end the bill was shot down, and no bounty was placed on coyotes. But in 2005 hunters began organizing Coyote Derbies, where hunters would compete to see who could kill the most coyotes, largest coyote, etc., for prizes and rewards; resulting in little more than private bounties on coyotes. This produced so much public outrage that within a few years such events were outlawed in Vermont.
Coyotes are now thoroughly established throughout the state, at densities that are probably at their sustainable limit. While seeing a coyote is still rare enough to be exciting, the evidence in the snow, and the howling at night indicates coyotes are there, even if they are not often seen. One of my favorite ways of “coyote watching” is to go out early in the morning after a night of a soft snowing falling, and travel the roads that run along sections of frozen rivers such as the Otter Creek, which runs 90 miles north in the state, and through the town I live in. Coyotes seem to prefer to follow the “course of least resistance”, and follow frozen rivers. Once I see the tracks of coyotes traveling on a river, I drive in the direction they’re going, most of the time unable to see the river from the road, until I finally come to a spot where I can see the river, but can’t see tracks in the snow on the ice any more. I then park and wait. About 10 percent of the time I will eventually be rewarded by the appearance of the pack of coyotes traveling on the ice. And “pack” (used as a verb) they do. Here in Vermont the coyotes seem to be much more wolf-like than their western cousins; in phenotype as well as behavior. I once watched a pack of eight coyotes with each member of the pack a distinct color, ranging from one almost white to one almost pure black. The coyotes I saw in Arizona were pretty much as indistinguishable as grey squirrels back here in Vermont; if you see one you’ve seen them all. But our coyotes are even more diverse in their colors and size than any wolf packs I’ve seen (on TV or in videos).
Vermont was once the “sheep capital” of the country, but I’ve read the business eventually became unprofitable due to free-roaming dogs. Sheep are now making a comeback, but the majority are kept in smaller, more easily protected flocks easily kept under the watchful eye of a guard dog, so there is really little loss to coyotes. Fortunately there have been no more serious attempts to put a bounty on any predators here in Vermont. As you clearly stated, bounties don’t work, and are just a “feel good” approach to an unchangeable situation and a waste of taxpayers’ money. They make it look like the “powers that be” are actually doing something about an assumed problem, but they’ll have no effect on the overall coyote population in the end. The coyotes are here to stay, they’re evolving into a new form of wolf, and we’ll just have to learn to live with it.
DAC
I find it interesting that the coyotes in VT come in so many colors. From my reading, I gather that as coyotes moved east they interbred w/ both wolves and dogs, so I expect that some of the unusual coloring is due to dog DNA.
I used to go around to the fur buyers’ sheds during the fall and winter hunting/trapping seasons and inspect the coyotes hunters and trappers brought in to them. Since I’ve cross-bred wolves and dogs for so many years I had a pretty good eye for dog genes in wild canids, and about 1/3 of all the coyotes I inspected, though they looked like pure coyote/wolf canids, had a dew claw on their back legs, a sure sign of domestic dog genes. All the old time fur buyers I knew are now dead, so I don’t make the rounds inspecting coyote carcasses anymore, but I still stop and check out any coyotes I find dead beside the road, and over the last six or seven years about half have had rear dew claws, so besides wolf in the eastern coyote populations, I think there’s a strong dog influence too, but its quickly covered by the wild canid phenotype.
In 1975 I saw my first Vermont “coy-dog”, as everyone called them back then, when it crossed the road in front of me. When I got home I wrote in the back of my copy of L. David Mech’s ‘THE WOLF’ “April 28. 1975. I saw my first “coy-dog” today, which in my opinion really should be called “coy-wolf”. My first thought when I saw it was “fox”, but on approaching it closer (being in a car) I realized it was a coyote (?).”
I have since only seen two coyotes that definitely showed dog traits, and the others I’ve seen (probably more than two hundred) have run all the way from looking like pure western coyotes to looking like a northern wolf hair for hair. I have difficulty judging the size of a coyote past any great distance, and don’t believe many experienced hunters can either (I once had a seasoned hunter who claimed he’d seen a 100 lb. coyote, judge the size of a 90 lb. wolf I had. At less than 50 feet from the wolf’s kennel he estimated it weighed 150 lbs.), so I really don’t know the size of the animals I see, but the dead ones all seem to run about 30 to 50 lbs., with the exception of one that I judged (by lifting it) to weigh at least 80 lbs.
Some friends in eastern Vermont sent me a photo of a “coyote’ they’d photographed with a game camera. They thought it looked wolfish, and asked me what I thought. They sent two photos, one from the side, and one with the animal facing the camera. It looked very wolfy, with its tail hanging only to its hocks and not coming anywhere near the ground. It was long legged, and colored like a fawn wolf, with a black grizzled saddle on its back, a good size head and small ears. But when I examined the photos with a magnifying glass I could see it had dew claws on both hind legs. So this animal had dog DNA too.
I believe there is much more domestic dog DNA in our eastern coyotes than wildlife biologists like to admit. And all their reasons why dog-coyote hybrids wouldn’t thrive make little sense to me.
DAC
I’ve never seen a coyote on this side of the continent that didn’t look very doggy or somewhat wolfy.
My mother’s family tried to make it in the sheep business, and it was very unprofitable. (And yes, I know about Vermont merinos, which look like shar-pei sheep!)
What happened was it conflicted with another cultural norm, which is allowing large numbers of hounds to run the countryside. Most rural areas in West Virginia are essentially gigantic hunting parks for coonhounds and foxhounds, and those dogs regularly get separated from their owners while on long hunts and would have to spend a few days in the wild before they found them. While in the wild, they often availed themselves to easy prey, which was often sheep.
This exact same culture retarded the Newfoundland sheep industry: http://retrieverman.net/2011/04/06/the-sheep-killing-water-dogs-of-newfoundland/ and http://retrieverman.net/2011/08/31/half-wild-labrador-dogs/
In Mark Derr’s A Dog’s History of America, he mentions that all the Virginia founding fathers did everything they could to stop wolves and free roaming dogs in the state, including in the northwestern part (which is now West Virginia). West Virginia was one of the last redoubts of wolves in the region, and as late as early 1900′s, Pennsylvania farmers were complaining about West Virginia wolves. (Officially the last wolf in the state was killed about 1900, though there is some debate as to the exact date.)
David Ricardo was right. Some regions are just geographically better suited to the production of certain resources and goods. Most of North America just isn’t good sheep country. New Zealand, which only ever had dogs to worry about, and mainland Australia, which only ever had dingoes and dogs to worry about, are just better places for sheep. The same goes for the British Isles themselves, which have been essentially large predator free for centuries, and because they are islands, they aren’t getting new ones filtering in.
You know that Helmick mentioned coyotes because they have no political allies, but bobcats and black bears do kill sheep, as do golden eagles (though rarely) and black vultures (which are uncommon in the state). Bobcats and bears have hunting and trapping communities that want them to be protected, and the vulture and eagle are protected by federal law.
You’ll also never hear a political figure in West Virginia say that he wants to ban hunting with hounds. That’s political suicide.
A lot of sheep keeping in the United States is romantic nonsense, and as strange as it sounds, there is large proportion of people who keep sheep solely so they can keep sheep dogs like border collies.
The United States just isn’t a major producer of sheep.
The top sheep producers are: http://www.sheep101.info/farm.html
We’re way behind Ethiopia and Pakistan!
One of my favorite stories of family lore involved my great great grandpa who had lots of problems with a neighbor’s sheep that were always escaping and eating his corn.
This happened so many times in the early part of the growing season that it started to get old fast.
One day he caught the flock eating his newly planted corn, and he decided that second amendment remedies were necessary.
So he shot them all in his cornfield.
When he then went off to do other things, but met the neighbor coming down the road looking for his sheep.
The neighbor asked “Have you seen my sheep?”
“Why yes, they are in my cornfield.”
And he went on down the road.
“…but the dead ones all seem to run about 30 to 50 lbs.”
That’s still double the size range of AZ coyotes–a sure sign of either interbreeding or Bergmann’s Rule, or both. I would expect that as these animals spread north, the larger specimens would be favored–perhaps eventually rivaling N. American Grey wolves and Neoarctic wolves in size.
Now here is a situation where large LGDs really work, as do the donkeys you mentioned and mules and llamas. If you’re gonna raise sheep in the eastern US, you better be willing to invest in one or more of these animals.
A donkey is still a prey animal, & is easily pulled down by even a small pack of coyotes. LGDs are a better option. Two or more LGDs & coyote problems tend to vanish into thin air. 8-)
A donkey is a lot easier to keep than a livestock guardian dog. The most effective ones are dogs that the average person needs some knowledge to keep. I’ve never heard of a pack of coyotes killing a donkey. Wolves, on the other hand, will kill donkeys. A full-sized donkey is more than enough for a pair of coyotes.
Then again, if you’re going to be herding sheep with border collies, you’d need some knowledge to handle the dog even if you bought it ready trained. I suppose it depends on the size of your flock, the acreage you have, what predators are about and your neighbours over which animal is the best for the woolly little sitting ducks.
Seeing how many ranchers just buy one dog, and let them get slaughtered by a wolf, bear or a cougar without ever understanding what a livestock guardian dog is, I wouldn’t trust them.
At least a donkey is somewhat similar to a horse.
I’d have added level of common sense, but sadly there’s no law saying people have to be smarter than the animals they own/farm.
Dave,
In your province, a combination of Great Pyrenees, Kuvaszok and Italian Maremmas employed by Mr. Dennis Loxton for protection of sheep and silvicultural workers against bears has yielded spectacular results. He keeps 8 LGDs plus few kelpies (for herding) per 1500 sheep to achieve success.
I didn’t deny that LGD is not a practical solution.
There are videos like this too:
http://vimeo.com/60354527
It is the most beautiful video on LGDs (or LPDs as they are called in US’ northwestern states) that I have ever seen. Tuskish / Kurdish Kangals, Bulgarian Karakachans and Central Asia Ovcharkas are some dogs shepherds recommend for herding in wolf country. This video captured it all beautifully.
That film summarizes everything we’ve collectively said on this subject over the past year or so. Thanks for the link Dave.
But a donkey is less likely to get through a fence and maim a passer-by. There is a role for dogs as weapons, but it needs to be a limited role. LGDs are a high risk solution in many environments.
Depends on what breed of LGDs you are keeping.
In general Great Pyrs and many canine aggressive LGDs are friendly towards people.
Again in general, LGDs like Komondor and Kangals have been noted to attack people.
Donkeys and llamas are GREAT against canine predators! I don’t know how they would fare against big cats or bears, but they put dogs and coyotes to flight. I don’t have personal knowledge about their effectiveness with wolves but I imagine that unless the wolves were very determined, a pair of donkeys or llamas would coerce them toward easier prey too.
Added bonuses are that they graze with the sheep, don’t eat the sheep, and don’t have to be kept with the sheep during infancy to imprint them.
As someone from an island long devoid of large predators I really enjoyed reading these contributions.
Some of the problems perceived here are from much smaller immigrants such as, from America, mink, crayfish and squirrels. Even smaller are the various microscopic pathogens etc entering the country from all over courtesy of global warming and affecting many lifeforms from trees to frogs, not to mention all those insects and birds we have been killing off with our poisons and unfriendly farming. Despite minor attempted ameliorations I’m afraid it may all end in tears as we continue to kill and overpopulate the planet.
My neighbour nearly lost their dog to lungworm a couple of years ago. It’s now rife in a lot of the UK and I’ve gone from never having to give mine preventative treatment for parasites to Advocate monthly. The spread of pathogens is not helped by our shut the door once the horse has bolted attitude of our government. Like the ash tree dieback debacle. The government has known since 2009 how devastating this disease is, yet nothing was done to attempt to monitor or ban sapling imports.
I’ve been following the British wild life debate in the e-papers for some yrs now and know that you are quite rich what comes to the numbers of the smaller beasts in your Isles. Namely, there are 250 000 foxes and 250 000 (adults), but since the last Autumn’s culling, I’m not sure if the numbers are still adequate. The great numbers surely present the same “natural” phenomenon than the coyotes of W-V: when the greater predators are gone, there’ll be always new ones coming.
That is so clear and makes me wonder – can killing be the answer ??
The word “badgers” is missing there in my sentence where I present the numbers of those two species.
Incidentally, sorry if slightly off subject, but I was amazed by the recent comment played on British tv where some T party lady was saying America must retain its right to bear arms because during the coming “breakdown in American society” families will need to protect themselves from their neighbours. No other developed country perceives a need to have cupboards full of weapons justifying such dangerous stupidity with a constitution designed, in this respect, for a bygone age
There are lots of crazy survivalist-types in the mountains everywhere… even Norway.
The T obviously stands for twit… I’m being polite as that i should be an a. I want to snatch people like that’s copy of Atlas Shrugged off them and beat some sense into them with it.
Ahh yes, the Ayn Rand syndrome.
Bounty systems can be ugly. Flash back to the late 1960′s when I lived in New Hampshire. The town of Sugar Hill employed a cop who was a real looser. He was eventually busted for shooting people’s family dogs and taking them over the Vermont border to collect on the bounty for feral dogs.
You definitely wouldn’t want to give some wildlife-illiterate idiot who spies a loose husky/shep/jindo/etc incentive to shoot. I don’t know anything about WV, but I know that some not-too-savvy people can mistake red dogs for foxes.
Or Elkhounds for wolves.
Many years ago I was doing inventory in my bar one day when one of my regulars came in and said, “Did you hear one of the ****** boys trapped a wolf!?” When I said I hadn’t, he went on to tell me that this guy had trapped big wolf in one of his fox/coyote traps, and it had lunged at him showing its teeth when he approached it. So he had shot it. I asked him what the guy had done with it, and he said he’d sold it to a local fur buyer.
So I went down to the fur buyers, and he had this close to six foot long hide hanging in a big willow tree in front of his house with all the fresh skins he’d bought in the last two days (after his skinner had the hides off the animals and turned inside out on stretchers, he’d hang them in that big tree if the weather was good to dry for a few days before he hung them in his fur shed. Some days you’d drive past his house and see a hundred hides, mainly muskrats, hanging in that tree and swaying in the breeze like some weirdly decorated Christmas tree).
When Frank, the fur buyer saw me in his yard looking at the hide, he came walking up as fast as he could (he was an old man) and asked excitedly, “What do ya think? It’s a wolf, ain’t it?” I asked him to turn the hide fur side out, and as his skinner was doing that, I asked where the carcass was. He said, “Right over here.” and led me to his carcass pile. The body of the “wolf” he’d bought was thick-set and muscular, with short legs like some malamutes or an elkhound. The feet were still on the legs, and they were small (for the size of the body) and round like a dogs, but the head was gone. When I asked Frank where the head was, he said, “Bob **** came by to look at the wolf, and he wanted the skull.”
We went back over to where the skinner now had the hide turned fur side out, and I recognized the color and pattern. It was a grizzled grey and brown on a whitish background, and even had a black tip on its tail and distinctive dark rings under its eyes. But I knew what it was the second I saw it. The fur buyer looked at me anxiously and asked, “Well, what do ya think? It’s a wolf, ain’t it?” I said, “Frank, I think you bought Hal *****’s dog.
Frank wasn’t too happy, but he knew me and knew I knew dogs, so accepted my identification. When I got back to the bar I called Hal and asked him if he was missing Runt, as his dog was named. Hal said, “Yeah, I haven’t seen him in a couple of days.” I said, “Well, I’ve got some bad news for you.”
Hal was a free spirit who lived in a commune-like setting with a group of like-minded kids (back then I guess they would have been called ‘Hippies’ by most), and let his dog, Runt roam freely. The dog would be seen all over the place, and regularly showed up in Vergennes, about five miles from home. Runt looked like a shepherd-husky cross, and Hal claimed he had coyote in him, but he looked all dog to me, even though he was colored like a wolf or coyote. He only weighed about 75 lbs., but once you skin an animal it’s hide can be stretched out quite a bit, and ends up looking like it came off a much larger animal. That’s why they call the wooden or wire frames hides are pulled over to dry “stretchers”.
I later heard that when Hal went down to Frank’s to get his dog, Frank gave him the headless carcass, but wouldn’t let him have the hide unless he paid him the money he’d paid for it (I think it was $45.00). Hal didn’t have the money, so he took his dog’s body home to bury without head or hide, and I suppose some woman somewhere is wearing Runt’s hide around her neck on the collar of her parka.
DAC
Thanks for this – another story to add to my arsenal of “Why you shouldn’t let your dog roam around unsupervised”.
They have even mistake a human being for a capercaillie.
Lots of dogs would get shot. And cats. We also have two other species of wild dog, one of which– the gray fox– looks like a very small coyote if you don’t see it properly.
Back when we had wolf bounties, they’d shoot dogs and turn in the pelts, often to multiple counties to get the bounty reward. If they got a bona fide wolf, they’d do the same.
Bounties were always ripe for fraud.
The state of Ohio used to have a bounty on crows, and everyone from Ohio would come to West Virginia and shoot crows and come back across the river to collect their bounty money.
Helmick is trying to mitigate fraud here, but I don’t think it would be that practical.
Jen, I don’t recall there ever being a bounty on feral dogs here in Vermont. I know there was a bounty on bobcats, and maybe on porcupines, but I never heard of a bounty on feral dogs (how could anyone tell the difference between a dead feral dog and a dead family pet brought in for bounty?). Was it perhaps something offered by some Vermont county along the NH border? I may be wrong, but I don’t think there was ever such a state-wide bounty .
DAC
And rattlesnakes! I forgot that until the early 70s the state used to pay a bounty on rattlesnakes; now strictly protected.
DAC
Sheep are labor intensive compared to many other types of livestock. Moreover, they don’t convert food to meat as cost effectively as many other types of livestock. This is why, where the environment allows it, you see cattle being used instead of sheep. OTOH, sheep can be raised in areas where there isn’t “enough” for a reasonable sized herd of cattle or the environment won’t sustain cattle. Donkeys (I’ve also seen mules & mini mules used) are cheap and easy to use as flock guardians. Even if you have a herding dog, a LGD has to be fed and managed, so you can’t just turn it out with the flock like a donkey or mule. But I know a number of folk who use one or the other (and some use both) very effectively. Regarding the bounty, I would expect a lot of “oops, shot someone’s brown dog” cases to occur and yes, I think the solution is stupid and a government waste. It isn’t Obama. It’s your state Govt. (I can sympathize. CA never saw a spending bill it didn’t like).
“Moreover, they don’t convert food to meat as cost effectively as many other types of livestock.”
If we’re talkin’ FCR, its apples and oranges–depending on whats being fed and what you’re comparing them to. Also (and more importantly) I really, really like my lamb chops and sheep’s-milk chesses!
It has been mentioned in comments above that donkeys (or Burros as they are called in Northern Rockies) or large livestock guardian dogs need to be kept to protect livestock from coyotes. Actually, Cat Urbigkit, a shepherd in North Western Wyoming and author of many books including ‘Shepherds of Coyote Rocks’, keeps a combination of 3-4 large LGDs and 2 burros for protection of her sheep.
While burros and Llamas can be good for protection against coyotes, agricultural departments of various Canadian provinces do recommend keeping one llama or one burro only otherwise they will flock among their own kind leaving sheep to fend for themselves. Also, one needs canine aggressive LGDs against wolf predation. Even LGDs like Great Pyrenees, which are effective against bear, cougar and coyotes, don’t fare well against wolves.
IMHO, after talking to many farmers here in southern Ontario, keeping LGDs remains a better option against coyotes and other predators.
I’m sure you’re right buddy, but here in the East, at least so far, burros and llamas are very effective against both coyotes and dogs. My neighbor’s burro (a jenny) keeps all and sundry local canids (w/ one key exception as noted below) away from her owner’s goats–this despite the fact that several horses and ponies are corralled w/ her. Interestingly, this same burro was good buddies w/ my late dog Sam–I guess she could tell he meant no harm.
Which makes me believe, in line with some one (perhaps Scottie) mentioning earlier, that many farmers in the east may be keeping small flocks of sheep just to fulfil their desire to keep herding and LG dogs :-)
A lot of the folks who keep sheep here do so for wool production–although there are meat and milk breeds around too. Others are hobbyists. But in any event, the major predator on sheep here is the domestic dog, the which, usually belongs to a neighbor. I can remember rescuing a neighbor’s sheep from local dogs more than once.
We are talking about West Virginia here. No large wolves there.
Oh I think we moved from west Virginia to all other states of the USA and provinces of Canada long time ago ;-)
Scottie killed the motion for keeping LGDs in WV on account of no real need for sheep in that state.
In the same vein as this post, for those of you w/ access to Natural History magazine, the current issue (2/13) has an article entitled “Return of the Wolf God”, about the recently rediscovered African wolf (Canis Lupus lupaster) and its hybridization w/ the Egyptian subspecies of the golden jackal (Canis aureus lupaster).
Quote from the article [my insertions in brackets]:
“…biologists…noticed certain golden jackals looked different from others [no shit Sherlock!]. They were larger, more slender and sometimes had a whitish color…when the team attempted to correlate [DNA from scat] with other wolf samples…[they] found DNA that didn’t match anything in GenBank.”
There’s a photo of one of these wolves, along w/ one of a golden jackal–clearly two distinct phenotypes.
An interesting side-note is that these wolves appear to work as individuals rather than in packs. Whether this is a result of their relative rarity is hard to say.
Coyotes aren’t the primary predators in W. Virginia or anywhere else. Human beings are. Either donkeys or sheep dogs like Komodors or Great Pyrenees will protect sheep if they live with them. Also, so what if an occasional coyote gets an occasional sheep? Humans eat lamb chops. Why shouldn’t coyotes have an occasional treat. Is the world only for humans? If so, why did God create so many other predators?
“Coyotes aren’t the primary predators in W. Virginia or anywhere else. Human beings are.”
Funny you should say that, when my neighbor Sam (now in his mid-80′s) was still raising beef cattle, his number one predation problem was sneak thieves who would creep over the fences at night and butcher a cow or steer in situ. They’d leave what they didn’t want behind for poor old Sam to clean up. It was a big enough problem that he got out of the cattle business.
As for allowing for a certain level of predation: Ranching/farming, like everything else in today’s world, is geared toward making a profit. Many small farmers/ranchers simply live too close to the bone to allow for losses due to predation. Others–the big agribiz types–see only the bottom-line.
As for your last sentence–I think I’ll let that pass for fear of generating an unnecessary tangent.
Massugu, biting my keyboard tongue right now.
DAC
Well said, Elaine. The only thing I might disagree with is crediting any creation to some mythical god.
“God is the great mysterious motivator of what we call nature and it has been said often by philosophers, that nature is the will of God. And, I prefer to say that nature is the only body of God that we shall ever see.” – Frank Lloys Wright.
And coming from a slightly different perspective:
“God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance that’s getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on.” – Neil Degrasse Tyson
Actually, science is too fast-changing culture, and can’t give any final answers and thus satisfy people’s mind. Especially now when people are waking up to the fact science becoming more & more depended on various political intresses to control the masses – or being just a big entertainment like circus.
Science isn’t a culture which changes too fast. Before, mails would take a year, 6 months, a few weeks to deliver.What happened is the invention of the telegraph (and its son: the Internet.)
Yeah Elaine; and we must understand that the predators have been very excellent breeders – without them, should we have those musculous, sound ungulates and other hay – eaters (domestic or not) that we have today ?
We really owe them that breeding; by Canis, that’s been going on for more than 20 millions of yrs. Think about that !
Elaine wrote: Also, so what if an occasional coyote gets an occasional sheep? — no one would care if the coyote paid “market value” before doing that. Mostly folk tend to object to spending time, money and effort only to have some “freeloader” take it. So what if people steal your car? Or your money, valuables? It really is the same principal. People don’t like to have their property damaged or taken, nor their efforts wasted. Sheep ranchers don’t care if a rabbit comes by, because rabbits don’t generally cause a problem for sheep. OTOH, cabbage raisers may not care about the coyote and object to the rabbits. Moreover, when livestock are attacked, it often means that many animals are injured or stressed (terrorizing pregnant sheep is a good way to have them abort), not just one. It’s easy to be cavalier about it if it isn’t YOUR money, effort, etc. As for LGD, donkeys, etc — they do definitely help, but there are drawbacks to them and they certainly aren’t foolproof. Most of those who have livestock don’t see any reason why they should be “ok” about their animals being damaged or destroyed and city folk upset about coyotes snacking on pet cats / dogs that happen to be outside.
I agree; most people, especially “city” people don’t see predation as a serious problem until it becomes personal. I was once at a friend’s house and she was telling me that she disagreed with most policies on predator control of any type. It was a fine spring morning as we sat at her dining room table having coffee, and I looked out her wide picture window over a rolling pasture where a dozen Arabian mares were nursing and generally caring for their new foals. This friend could be classified as a “wolf lover” as could I, but I just had to say, “How would you feel if you woke one morning and found half your foals killed by wolves?”
She was speechless for a moment, and I could see the realization of how an event like that could change your opinion on something, even when you love it, spread over her face. I doubt she had ever thought of the predator-livestock problem on a personal basis before. She now raises sheep, but I don’t think she’s had any problems with coyotes. If she had she would have been in contact with me for help.
I love all wildlife, especially predators, which includes birds of prey, but I sure grit my teeth when goshawks take my racing homers or great horned owls take my chickens. I would definitely take steps against coyotes if they were making inroads on livestock I was raising to make a living; either to sell or to eat myself. I know the value of a LGD, because Grizzly, my Irish wolfhound, Alaskan malamute cross plays that role here, running off or killing any predators that invade his territory. Besides my free-ranging chickens, my most vulnerable birds are a large flock of chickens not needed in any of my current breeding programs, and are kept in a communal coop that has access to a yard of an acre or more that runs off into the woods behind one of the barns. Though I have a six foot fence around this yard, any climbing predators (and I recently found fisher tracks crossing our lower driveway) could easily get into the yard and have a chicken feast. But Grizzly routinely circles the perimeter of that yard, and puts the run to any predators that might make an appearance. At night, when the kenneled dogs make a ruckus, I simply open the door and let Grizzly and his father, Branigan out, and they handle any problem predator for me (though they did come back skunk sprayed once). It drives Grizzly crazy that he can’t catch a weasel (still an ermine, at this time of year here) that has been thinning my flock, but hides in a big brush pile where he can’t get at it. Grizzly routinely leaves dead opossum and coon on the lawn for me to find in the morning. The local fox and coyotes seldom come closer than a thousand feet from our buildings and bird enclosures. We no longer keep any livestock in farther pastures, which would require a different type dog (and human) behavior to protect them. Czara, my Caucasian Ovcharka serves only as a threat/warming system, walking around the area she considers her territory and barking almost constantly, but I believe even a pair of coyotes would have her baffled; one leading her off a ways while the other sneaks in and makes off with one of her charges, so I’m sure it would take several of these dogs to work as true guards. I bring her into the house at night since she’ll sit and bark with every breath at some imaginary threat all night long, and when I let the house dogs out to investigate a problem like I mentioned above, she’s so slow she’ll just be reaching the area of excitement as Bran and Grizzly are heading back to the house. But Grizzly has the speed of a sight hound coupled with the power of a big malamute, and can take the battle to any curious predator very quickly. And once a fox or coyote has had Grizzly hot on their tail they know they can’t play games with him like they could with Czara. Many of my hunting friends, even one who actually hunts coyotes with scent hounds, have seen Grizzly run and said they believe he could actually catch a coyote on open ground. They outmaneuver him in our woods, and as far as I know he’s never caught one, though he did come back after a chase one night with signs he’d been in a fight.
On another topic; I once had a very aggressive stud jackass that literally (tried to) attack any dog that came into the pasture, though he could never actually catch one. He would terrorize my brothers GSD when he visited, but my own dogs considered him a game, and would go out into the pasture and let him chase them just for fun. I would have never used him to protect small livestock like sheep, since I’m sure even one coyote could lure him away from whatever he was trying to protect, and then trot back up the pasture leaving the donkey well behind, and kill whatever it wanted while the donkey tried to get back up to where the action was taking place. Two or more coyotes would have no trouble running this donkey all over the place. I saw my own dogs outwit him so many times I saw little benefit in him as livestock protection: he was all heart, but no ability. I know nothing of llamas and their abilities, but we must remember, coyotes are very intelligent, and I don’t think they’d be deterred unless they really thought they were in danger. I have known coyotes that would come into fields behind a farm house and actually taunt the farm dogs into chasing them, and then run circles around them for fun, and not really be afraid of them at all, just enjoying a game. So I would think a LGD would have to be pretty fast on its feet to even worry coyotes; just barking isn’t going to scare them off.
DAC
“So I would think a LGD would have to be pretty fast on its feet to even worry coyotes; just barking isn’t going to scare them off.”
My CAS kill coyotes all the time. It never takes long & they’ve killed enough that the older, wiser coyotes in my area avoid this place now, even with all the tempting baby goat & chicks running around at the moment. I hear them in the woods behind my property but I almost never see them any more, although I always know when they show themselves in any of the fields around us because of the eruption of furious roaring from my dogs. No offense intended, but your CO sounds like a modern type rather than a working type. The modern type tend to be very heavy-bodied, slow & ponderous & not very quick-minded, much more prone to joint problems, & with the typical shortened lifespan of the modern giant breeds. If you want a working LGD, I would look at people with aboriginal Nagazi-type COs. They have a lot more leg & are fast & agile with a better working mind, less health issues, & a more normal life span. There is an Italian breeder I can recommend heartily with a really remarkable pack of short-coated Nagazi-type COs that are stunning dogs with excellent working instincts.
A good LGD does bark a lot, it’s the first line of defense to alert the predators in the area to the dog’s presence. 9 times out of 10, a predator will choose the place with no dogs to make a kill. But an LGD is smart & fast & aggressive when needed. Now they won’t run down a predator & kill it if it takes off since they aren’t going to leave their property or their livestock unprotected. Dogs with too much of this hunt drive don’t make good LGDs for this reason. My Borzoi killed coyotes handily, too, but he would also chase them into the next county to do it, & if I relied on him, I’d have long stretches of time where my animals would be unprotected. Coyotes are clever enough to know how to use decoys to draw off a dog that will run them down & lead him a merry chase while their compatriots go back & kill as they please. LGDs aren’t typically fooled by this tactic & by their way of thinking, if the predator runs off, their job is done, since the object isn’t specifically to kill the predator but to simply stop it from harming the livestock. Killing it is one tactic that is readily employed if the predator chooses not to leave. But if it chooses to leave, it is generally allowed to, although some dogs have a longer fuse than others. My CAS, for example, don’t give a predator as large of a window of opportunity to skedaddle as my Pyrs & ASDs. They also tend to kill more quickly when it comes to that, with CAS-killed carcasses almost untouched, the injuries sustained mostly around the neck & head where they grab & kill-shake or rip out the throat, while the Pyr or ASD-killed carcasses typically have small wounds all over & lots of missing fur where they harried it. I prefer the quick kill of the CAS since they don’t give the coyotes time to fight back so they end up less injured, if at all, from these frays.
A single LGD is not going to be able to do the job, of course. You need at least two, one to fight & one to stay behind. And dogs which bond closer to the stock as well as dogs that patrol closer to the perimeter are really an unbeatable team. Most importantly of course, buy a dog from a breeder who is breeding for working ability specifically & who offers a guarantee of this. Just being of an LGD breed does not an LGD make, just like any other working breed.
It must vary w/ the donkey. My impression is that they’re pretty smart critters, especially considering that they’re herbivores. With Darla, my neighbor’s jennie; the goats huddle behind her while she gradually backs them up against a fence of building–all the while facing the “threat” and making small mock charges. She’s never led off. By the way, she’s just as protective of her owner’s barn cats as she is of the goats.
I guess like any animals you can’t lump all donkeys into a common group with identical behaviors. Maybe mine was just a dumb ass.
DAC
ROFL! There is a big difference in personality between the jacks and the jennies. I wouldn’t have a jack for love nor money. Now a mule on the other hand–I really like mules.
That’s what livestock compensation programs are for.
When Finnish government started compensating reindeer-owners for Golden Eagle predations, the poaching rate dropped to almost nil. they are considering doing the same for wolves.
The problem with livestock compensation programs in United States and Canada is usually the payout is half the market value or less. Why is a rancher willing to accept half the market value when a 50 cent bullet is cheaper? Or a 5-dollars power-snare?
yes. and “it was a dog, not a wolf, so no compensation” is also something you get in the US, which again is a reason for many ranchers to take a dim view of predators. Obviously one doesn’t want the rancher to commit fraud (I can’t sell this old ewe so maybe I’ll have a “wolf” kill it and claim….” – you may recall some of the old Herriot tales included “struck by lightning” scams attempted by the owners. The problem really is that most of those who aren’t involved in raising livestock have a very skewed idea of the risks, effort, etc involved, so it’s easy to convince them of “feel good” views that have very little basis in reality.
LGD can “cruise” a pretty big territory– they weren’t developed to protect 5 acre “hobby farms” so in many areas you have an issue with AC or neighbors regarding your “loose dog”. But they are pretty effective if used properly, as are donkeys (and some of the others). The thing is that “pretty effective” isn’t the same as “foolproof” and again, many an urbanite seems to think it is, just as many think a fence should suffice. (I once had a neighbor try to assert that it was my fault her dog got in with my sheep by clearing 2 fences, both 5-6′ nonclimb/chain. She got the message when I pointed out that in our area, I had an absolute right to shoot a gun on my property in defense of my property. But she still thought it was my responsibility to fence her dog OUT rather than hers to fence it IN. )
Also, just in case anyone is interested, here is a series of photos a friend of mine took of her dogs attacking an intruding dog which was heading for her livestock. Pictures are her two Estrela Mountain Dogs (who are doing the actual attacking), her Central Asian Shepherd, & her Armenian Gampr. Yes, it’s a big graphic, no they didn’t kill the dog this time.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10200555264298142.1073741826.1054671031&type=3
I agree with you, and wish I knew more about the LGD breeds. I realize Czara is a walking wreck. She is such a physical atrocity that I find it hilarious the woman I bought her from (from a northwestern state) is even advertising them as LGDs. After making a deposit and waiting more than a year for just the right pup, I was sent one that even at 9 weeks old had obvious physical faults even according to the breed standard. It was only after the pup was born that I was informed by this woman that she let her entire pack of COs roam freely on her ranch, and did DNA tests to see who fathered which pups. That’s no way to raise dogs if you ask me; especially when you’re getting $1,500.00 each for the pups. So I assume Czara is not the best example of the breed, but we love her, so she’s got a comfortable home here for the rest of her life.
Recognizing that Czara is just a bad example from a poor breeding program, I know there have to be other COs and other LGD breeds that are more primitive and physically fit. If I really had a need for such a dog I would be investigating them more thoroughly, but for now my wolfhounds and wolfhound crosses do the job for me.
I realize Grizzly would never actually work as a LGD under the accepted definition; he would be too tempted to run off after a coyote and leave his charges behind, but he makes a hell of an all-around farm dog, and might even work in a situation where the true LGDs stayed behind to guard the flock while Grizzly chased the coyotes for a bit, giving them a good scare. Of course, such behavior would quickly get him killed wolf country.
And that brings up another question; though I know little about them, one of the things that made me question the effectiveness of breeds like the Great White Pyrenees and Maremma (and now even the CO) as LGD is that back in the late 70s and early 80s there were a lot of Pyrenees and Maremma and a few other breeds being brought into the state as LGDs, and I had Blanco, my 130 lb. ½ Alaskan malamute, 3/8 German shepherd, 1/8 Siberian husky who was with me 100% of the time. I got around a lot back then, visiting friends at different places all over New England and New York, and on a couple different occasions I’d be visiting a farm, and end up in a situation where one of these guard dogs would attack Blanco, and he’d literally thrash them. I mean it would hardly be a fight. I’d step in and pull Blanco off the downed dog, and to give them credit they usually came back to their feet and attacked Blanco as I held him (all I could do then was let him go and pull him off once he’d put them down again), but it made me wonder just how effective these dogs would be in a fight against a wolf (when Blanco and my 7/8 Tundra wolf, Arctic, who I got out of Alaska in 1976, would occasionally get into it on one of our hikes, they pretty much held their own against each other until I got them broken apart, and Arctic wasn’t even a hardened wild wolf). If these dogs were supposed to be the first line of defense when guarding a flock, shouldn’t they have been a little “tougher” than I was seeing?
I expect your dogs are a tougher lot, but I’ve yet to see a Pyrenees in Vermont, even from supposedly “working” lines that was tough enough to handle (and in livestock protection work I assume “handle” would be an euphemism for “fight”) a dog like Blanco, let alone a tough wolf. If a wolf or wolves is going to run off at just a dog barking, almost any dog could do the job, but I assume there always comes a time in wolf territory where it’s time for the dog to “put up or shut up” and this would take a very tough dog with a lot of fight in them.
I see videos of these “Gampr” dogs, and they seem like an especially tough breed, but from the photos I see the ones in America (no offense to those of you who have them, your dogs may be different) don’t seem much like the ones in Armenia, and hardly even seem to be the same breed. I know we’re all against dog fighting, but essentially (and please correct me if I’m wrong) isn’t that what a LGD is expected to do if they’re to actually stop a feral dog, coyote or wolf that won’t be scared away by barking from killing their charges? So just how do the LGD people gauge the toughness of their dogs?
I couldn’t access the photos, but I would enjoy learning more about LGDs, and especially the CAS from someone who actually works them if you’d like to email me at wolfrunkennel@gmail.com.
DAC
Sent you an e-mail. I think you would be very impressed by my Central Asians, & by the Gamprs I know of this country (one of my puppy buyers also has Gamprs).
As for gauging toughness, that is actually a big problem in the LGD community at this time. The more popular breeds have really become soft in the last few generations. My hypothesis is that we as a society are so terrified of canine aggression that we have bred all the edge out of our working dogs. Also, many people producing LGDs for working purposes are what we call “farm breeders”, farmers who are just breeding their working dogs, as opposed to breeders who breed Working Dogs. In other words, they don’t actually know what goes into producing a high percentage of quality working puppies & they just breed what they have on hand or what’s readily available rather than actually researching the background on their dogs & looking for the very best crosses possible, even if it means importing or driving long distances for breeding. Does that make sense? And of course you have breeders who take an LGD breed & keep it as a companion & show dog & breed with those goals in mind. Anyway, the overall quality of LGDs in this country is poor & there is a great deal of very bad information out there on selecting & training working LGDs. So yes, there are definitely an awful lot of weak LGDs who don’t have the bite to back up their bark, Pyrs probably being the worst in this area. We rescue Pyrs & ASDs & Maremmas & evaluate them for working ability as well as breed & rescue CAS, & in the few pack fights we’ve had, the CAS are FAR superior in battle to the Pyrs, Maremmas, & ASDs we’ve had. I doubt there would be such a marked difference if the rescue dogs we’ve had were as well-bred (i.e. well built, strong tempered, & athletic with a strong family history of equally high quality, proven working dogs) as our CAS.
My friend who’s album I just shared was actually KICKED OFF an Estrela Mountain Dog forum because people were horrified that she “makes her dogs attack other dogs”. These people claim to be Estrela Mountain Dog fanciers but the idea that someone actually keeps Estrelas as working LGDs (even though that is WHAT THEY ARE) & expect them to attack & even kill threats to her livestock apparently appalls them. What most people appear to want is the romantic history of the breed & the look of the breed but not the breed itself. I tell them they should have Newfoundlands & Leonbergers if they want a big hairy dog who loves everyone & everything & who will just lie quietly on the couch all day & not make a peep.
LGDs are SUPPOSED to be tough as nails & a good one is damned near indestructible in a fight with any other canine except another LGD. But you are definitely right, this is sadly all too often NOT the case.
Got the email, thanks. It’s good to know that there are actually people working with LGD that still want them to be what they were meant to be; not just look the part to the general public. It takes no amazingly powerful and/or tough dog to attack a man, but to face a wolf is another story. So many of the large and once tough breeds of dog are now just what I call “Baby Hueys” (anyone remember that comic book?). The breeders confuse big with tough and let their dogs (as a breed in whole) deteriorate into sway-backed, couch potato slobs.
If anyone interested in dog (and American) history reads of Lewis & Clark’s, Corps of Discovery Expedition west they’ll see that Meriwether Lewis brought a Newfoundland dog named Seaman with him on the trip. After reading of a few of Seaman’s exploits, it becomes obvious that he was no Newfoundland as we know the breed today. As a matter of fact, I doubt if any Newfoundland I’ve known could have even made that trip, much less have been a help to the explorers during it. But it’s obvious the Newfoundland must have always been a rather easygoing breed towards people, since Seaman was once stolen by “Indians”.
Here’s an observation I’ve made all my life, and I’d like to know if any of the LGD people out there have noticed the phenomenon, too. It seems that all my dogs that were aggressive towards other dogs (to such a degree they would be willing to run down and kill a strange one) have been very easy going towards people, while some of the most people-aggressive dogs I’ve known have been wimps when confronted with a dominant dog.
DAC
Depends on the breed. The flock guardian type LGDs like Pyrs, ASDs, & Maremmas tend to have very low human aggression. The perimeter guardian types like I have (this includes CAS, COs, Gamprs, & Tibetan Mastiffs) are highly defensive toward any intruder, animal or human. It very much depends on the intended purpose of the breed. Some were expected to protect the family as well as the livestock from thieves & assailants while others were not allowed to demonstrate any human aggression at all. None are what I would call “dog aggressive”, but are rather “dog selective”, meaning on their property they are highly territorially aggressive toward strange dogs, & off their property they are easily offended by behaviors most people consider friendly. They don’t tolerate strange dogs behaving in a forward manner or invading their space, but they don’t typically seek to engage dogs in battle on sight, either. And none should be so human aggressive that they cannot be taken in public or would maul someone who innocently but wrongly stumbles onto their property. My dogs will scare the ever-loving crap out of a harmless intruder, but they will only bite someone who legitimately deserves it.
Seaman was more like a retriever. Indeed, most of the Newfoundlands of that time were retriever-like:
http://retrieverman.net/2012/04/20/teasing-apart-the-history-of-the-newfoundland-dog-the-st-johns-water-dog-and-the-retrievers/
Retrievers are actually derived from that kind of Newfoundland, which you could find on Newfoundland as late as the 1970′s. And Farley Mowat had one.
I’ve only had one LGD if that counts, but my TM is a very well socialized suburb living dog so probably not what you had in mind. Not that it makes him soft or not a proper LGD because of this. He’s physically and mentally well balanced, knows his own strength and can handle himself with aplomb in any situation. In situations where he’s needed to, he’s used just enough appropriate force to make the bolshy dog back off or frighten the bejeezus out of the offending human. Normally, he’s pretty relaxed and will be fussed over with quiet dignity in the street, but if he doesn’t like someone, he’s always right about it. He’s equally pleasant with polite, friendly dogs and is a total sucker for cats, rabbits and small children. But he’ll not tolerate the local fox hanging round.
I remember when he was only 5 months old and one night he was mooching about in the grass when a man who didn’t see him stalked quickly towards me with some seriously threatening body language. He nearly shat himself when the TM exploded out of the grass like an angry tiger and my would be assailant kind of minced away trying not to break into a run. As he’s got older, he’s become more self possessed and an even better judge of situations when they have arisen. He’s a house dog and will welcome visitors I allow in, doesn’t bark when the window cleaner calls and generally knows how to behave in a civilized manner. We do live in a built up area where we are cheek by jowl with people and dogs every day, so he’s not in the traditional LGD setup. Not that any of this means he’s a mere big lollopy stuffed shirt and not a proper TM. He’s like a tai-chi master – just because he’s calm and equable on the surface doesn’t mean he’s not light on his feet and won’t kick your arse seven way from here to kingdom come before you know what hit you if you deserve it.
There are still some great dogs out there; probably in almost every breed. It’s just too bad that some people can’t see a dog for what it actually is, and not some fur covered Honey Boo Boo. But in a world where people do that to their children (as I’ve heard; fortunately I’ve never seen her TV show or whatever she’s on), what can you expect some to do to their dogs? I salute all of you who have good working dogs, even if they’re only kept as a companion. It’s apparent that all who comment here are interested in healthy dogs than can live full, useful lives, and not the poor deformed things whose main purpose in life is too trot a few times around a show ring.
DAC
Ack! Spoilt little emperors and princesses. I can’t stand seeing screechy brats being bribed by their parents to stop screaming in the supermarket almost as much as the abusive parents that get in the face and threaten their children. And these kind of people will invariably treat any dogs they have in the same manner, be they handbag or mastiff sized. I don’t have kids and my dogs are in no way child substitutes. But I am of the school of treating children and dogs in the same way. By that, I mean you treat them with consistency and fairness so they know where they stand. And don’t get me started on Honey Boo Boo – her redneck parents need stuffing in a sack and shaking up. I’ve only seen clips and that’s enough to know that’s a child that’s going to be in her own “Honey Boo Boo Goes To Therapy” reality show when she’s 18.
I have no problem with people who show their dogs to be honest as the vast majority in the UK owner handled and are valued family companions for the rest of the time. But I will never defend breeding for form over function or not health testing, especially of large working breeds – it only takes a couple of bad apples to ruin a breed eventually. But that shouldn’t demonize the good ones who try their best to breed physically, mentally and genetically sound dogs and show too. Someone on here not long ago said that nearly all the Anatolians shown in the USA were also working dogs. Several of my TM’s siblings are International Champions. But the rest of the time they are at home with a couple of acres of land to patrol with a few of their relatives and a tibbie they all dote on. His younger brother who qualifies for Crufts regularly despite only going to a couple of shows a year spends most of his time running about the Scottish moors with a gordon setter. I really don’t like what’s happening in the USA with the TMs in the showring – they’re not supposed to be tall fawn dogs with masses of coat and they don’t need prettying up! And the Chinese have created an abomination out of the breed by crossbreeding for height, bulk and massive heads. My TM looks very much like the dogs you see in Tibet still with the nomads and I really hope that’s not lost in the future. Yeah, I tend to be Mrs 50/50 on a lot of subjects.
Hey, just wanted to let you know I got your reply to my e-mail but for some reason every time I try to reply to you, I get a Mailer Demon message. So I’m going to try to find some free online place to put my pics of my dogs & share the link here.
I’ve had the same experience w/ Pyrs, and those sheepherders in the northwest who’ve tried to rely solely on them have consistently lost their dogs (and livestock) to wolves. But they do work alright against coyotes (and apparently against s. European wolves) and they work even better if the sheepherders employ several types of dogs–to include fast, aggressive breeds like the Sarplaninac to convince the wolves that there are easier pickin’s elsewhere. Of course, if you have only one of these more aggressive breeds, a pack of wolves will easily be able to kill it as well.
In Europe have jackals responded similarly to the widespread Eradication of wolves by expanding their ranges?and if not why not?
They have. They are now in Italy and Hungary. I’ve even heard rumors of them in Sweden. (How did they get there?)
Easyjet? I’m thinking that has got to be either an escaped animal or a case of mistaken identity. It’s a long walk from the Ukrane to Sweden, unless there are unknown populations of them further north. They would have had to either pass through Finland or hitch a lift over the Baltic from where we know they have populations in Europe. So the question is, why Sweden and not Finland, Poland, Estonia and the most populous area of Russia if they are so far north already. Give them time and no doubt they’ll get there eventually though.
What does Helmick trully mean when he claims “They’re winning the battle” ?
I just hate it – everythings political now-a-days. Also the wildlife. Yuk.
Yes everything seems to be couched in terms of warfare, War on Drugs, war on Poverty, class warfare, etc.
Are they sure the jackals aren’t domestic/feral dogs that happen to look like jackals? Seems to me that if the jackal type is a useful type to survive then it will evolve in separate species in certain circumstances.
Re lgd’s I think they can make ok pets in some situations. They are lower energy/prey drive than most types of working dog which suits lots of people. Properly socilised (or at least well trained enough so you can control it) the guarding instinct isn’t a huge issue (depending on breed). The trouble (as with most breeds) is that the showing world encourages extremes.
Adam.