The St. John's water dog in this photo looks an awful lot like a Labrador/collie-type cross. Any dogs that look like St. John's water dogs are Labrador crosses or Labs that are throwbacks to that breed.
Now, I haven’t received any comments or messages yet from people claiming to have a St. John’s water dog, but before I do, I’ll just say it again. The St. John’s water dog died out in the 1980’s. The last two dogs were found. They were both dogs, and they were both ancient. When they died, the strain was no more.
Now, does that mean we won’t see Labs with St. John’s water dog features? Of course not, and that is precisely the problem. Within the Labrador, the blood of this breed runs strongest. The Lab is the last retriever breed to receive an infusion of this native Newfoundland blood. St. John’s water dogs were imported as late as the 1940’s to add genetic diversity to the Buccleuch strain, which is the strain from whence the Labrador retriever came.
Now, some Labrador crosses really do look like the old breed:
And it’s not just Labrador crosses that could be mistaken for the St. John’s water dog. Because the genes this breed also run strongly in the other retriever breeds, it is possible to get mixed breeds from other retrievers that bear a strong resemblance to the St. John’s water dog.
I know these dogs exist because I had one. Remember my “golden boxer”?
I also need to mention that it is pretty clear that the original imports of the St. John’s water dog to Britain often included long-haired dogs. That’s because the long-haired dogs were deemed too cumbersome in the water. Ice tended to form in their feathering, and the dogs just couldn’t swim that fast. However, they were often good retrievers and quite biddable, so they were exported to Britain, where they played a role in developing the wavy-coated landrace and the curly-coats. The short-haired dogs were too important to the fishermen of Newfoundland.
I have found two specimens of the St. John’s water dog that had long hair.
One of them is this dog, listed as a”St. John’s Labrador”:
Another is t “Zelstone,” who appears in the extended pedigree of the golden retriever and was an important sire in the old wavy-coated breed. That means he’s an ancestor of the golden retriever and many flat-coat. He is said to be a “Labrador,” a “half-bred Newfoundland,” a “Newfoundland,” and a “wavy-coated retriever.” His original owners were known to import dogs from Newfoundland, so it is very possible that he was derived from the St. John’s water dog or was partially of that breeding.
Zelstone
Now, all of these dogs look like modern dogs. The modern dogs are almost invariably crosses with the descendants of the St. John’s water dog or throwbacks to that old strain.
The St. John’s water dog as it once existed is gone forever. Within the bloodlines of the retrievers and the modern Newfoundland, the blood still flows. Those breeds are our only connection to that extinct breed.
Recently read about a long-haired recessive gene in Labs, and I believe I’ve seen one. It was at a hunt test, and I remember double-checking the catalog to see if it was an ILP’d dog–nope–had a big-name field trial sire, but can’t remember which one now.
http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-long-hair-test.html
I knew this gene existed, because I’ve seen golden/Lab crosses that have the golden retriever coat rather than the Labrador coat.
And for that reason flat-coated retriever people will forever be aggrieved, especially those who do rescue. I wonder how many black, long-haired goldadors are in flat-coat rescue? Proabably as many of those are as there are golden/border collie crosses, which also really look like flat-coats.
Gina put me onto your blog. I love it. I’ve owned and hunted with labs and flat coats. If only there were a time machine so we could go back and try to save some genetic material from all these extinct breeds.
Two breeds I wish we’d saved: The St. John’s water dog and the Tweed water spaniel/Tweed water dog. We have their descendants, but I don’t think we can pull a Lutz and Heinz Heck and try to recreate them.
I’m glad you like the blog.
If we were going to recreate the St. John’s water dog, I think it could be done by crossing the Labrador with the Portuguese water dog and then backcrossing until we got a smooth-coated black dog with some white markings.
It would no more be a St. John’s water dog than the Nazi frauds that were the Heck Cattle and Heck Horse.
http://wildlifemysteries.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/the-heck-brothers/
Well if every breed is basically a heinz 57 of one degree or another it would help to know the mixes that were done to create both the St. John’s water dog and the Tweed water Spaniel and ….. well. Recreate them all over again. I wouldn’t say they are gone forever like a tasmanian tiger. But perhaps more like watered down. Finding the right ingredients will yield the same results in the end. You just have to really want it and pursue it. Provided you know all the original ingredients and the correct portions for the final mix.
Extinct breeds are extinct–as in, gone forever.
The breeds that created those breeds are gone. The specific dogs that may have been particularly talented and therefore used in breeding programs are gone, as are the less talented dogs that nonetheless seemed to “nick” with talented dogs to produce the desired progeny. The dogs that were particularly prepotent for different desirable traits are gone. Gone also are the dogs that had undesirable traits that breeders tried to avoid, thus changing the path of the breed. And the pressures that made desirable and undesirable traits obvious are gone. Gone are the ruthless culling practices of hundreds of years ago (thank goodness, but they were very important in making breeds what they were), and gone (IMO) is the unsentimental pragmatism (and perhaps the cajones) that went with that type of culling.
A breed is not a cupcake. There is no recipe, and if there were, the ingredients wouldn’t exist anyway.
For better or worse, when a breed is gone, it’s gone.
The Irish wolfhound is a recreation, as is the Cavalier King Charles spaniel.
You are very correct, but if you recreate a breed and then don’t use it for its original purpose, it’s just a cartoon version of it. Unless a St. John’s water dog is hauling nets and lines on ships on the Grand Banks, it’s just going to be a Lab cross.
Absolutely agreed! Something tells me the St. John’s water dog would have been a slightly ornery cuss for modern tastes unless he was either tired or old or left alone, and if he weren’t extinct he would not be terribly popular (good for him!) or he would be vastly different now…
probably, he would be… a Lab!
Apparently, the St. John’s water dog didn’t have enough of a fan base and purpose for it to be sustained in its most-hallowed form. In romantic retrospect, that may be a shame (I certainly think so), but for all practical purposes, it just–is.
The earlier versions were closer to the Chesapeake in temperament, but the later ones were rather Labradorish.
At one time, though, this breed was in demand. Everyone who wanted a retriever in Britain was importing them from Newfoundland, which was another thing they could export besides cod and other seafood.
I hope someone picks up that torch and does make the attempt to recreate the St. John’s and the Tweeds. Growing a set of “BALLS” would mean researching the purpose the temperament and the overall look of the breed. Then just doing it. Regardless of all the kicking and screaming dog fancy protesting it. In today’s day and age we still cull, but we call it spay/neuter. So the tools are still with us. And the ingredients for this cake mix are still with us. If the now extinct dogs were truly purposeful and desirable back in their days then perhaps there is purpose for them in modern times. There is certainly a longing from many to see them among us again. And if mixing and matching produces a stronger dog genetically then we all benefit from it long term. And the use of the revived breed would serve a positive for many breeds today that are unfortunately a part of closed registries and therefore well on their own way towards extinction like the St. Johns or a long and painful existence in denial like with FCR.
That post ended up in a strange place??? Sorry.
To recreate the Tweed water dog, you’d need an Irish water spaniel, a golden retriever, maybe a rare “true red” bloodhound, and probably a Labrador or a St. John’s water dog (if you could get one). Then you’d have to move to the River Tweed get gun permit from the British government and then go duck shooting over your dogs. Because if you just breed a dog that looks like one, it’s not the same thing.
The Irish wolfhound is a wonderful family dog. It is not the same breed that the Irish kings used to kill wolves. That breed actually disappeared in the eighteenth century. George Washington sent for some to be send from Ireland, but only an old bitch could be found. The modern dog is a recreation using Scottish deerhounds, borzoi, and Great Danes [sic] by Captain Graham of the British Army.
The Irish wolfhound is not the national dog of Ireland, BTW. The original Irish government tried to make the blue terrier the national dog, but the main patron of the breed, Michael Collins (a great Irish nationalist), was assassinated before it could be adopted. The wolfhound was rejected because it was associated with the landlords and British colonial rule.
Well, with the exception of some pariah breeds, which were mixes that occurred in nature primarily, dogs were products created with human intervention. They are all related yet different and in some way… perhaps Mowat didn’t have to save the St. John’s because their genes were in a way already preserved. Just passed onto a different form factor. If part conditioning and part instinct is in question well its obvious that the progeny of those dogs have it. Labradors still pull nets, retrieve and hunt. So can Newfs. Breed back to the form factor and well…. if it looks like one and acts like one….. it is one.
Taking the Irish Wolfhound as the example…. well it obviously looks like it. So if it were trained to run down large wolves in groups of three then is it essentially a wolfhound? A title given to suggest its purpose.
I asked my breeder once. If I took a bit of Labrador, a touch of Newfoundland, threw in a bit of German pointer and some Irish setter and perhaps some Collie, would you call it a mongrel or a Flattie. She said if it could retrieve from water on a hunt and play with my grandchildren when at home then I’d call it a Flattie.
She even pointed out that even the FCR was considered just a mutt before it was ever called a breed. I pretty much believe this applies to all dogs. Even the ones that due to our own vanity are born to live with deformities.
Dogs are more than just looks. They also have to be selected for behavior. A lot of golden retrievers don’t retrieve at all, simply because they have been selected to be cute rather than functional. If a St. John’s water dog is recreated and not used on the Grand Banks fishery, it’s not going to be the same dog. It’s going to be as much a St. John’s water dog as a Heck cow is an aurochs.
I bet an Irish wolfhound could catch a deer, but I seriousy doubt that anyone could use them to course wolves. That’s because the breed is recreation, and because wolves were extinct in Ireland and Great Britain when they were recreated, they were never selected for their wolf hunting abilities. An Irish wolfhound might look like the dogs used to kill wolves in old Ireland, but it’s not the same thing.
Using the dog to retrieve nets on the grand banks fishery is not such a far cry from becoming a reality. Someone just has to want to do it. Who’s to say that the dog can’t be recreated in Australia and then shipped to Canada to do its job. If I do recall the St John’s didn’t originate from where it was named. It just got tagged with that name due to the place it landed.
In Northern Canada and Parts of Alaska. It wouldn’t be so far fetched to see someone using Irish Wolfhounds to course a wolf. After all they are culled from the air. And humans do far worse things for sport. I can see a wealthy eccentric wanting to grasp at some of that and actually arranging for it to happen. Recreation is something the wealthy have plenty of. And recreating the past is something many enjoy
There’s going to be a lot of dogs that just don’t do what they were intended for. Sort of like owning horses to watch them pasture. You just love them and want to see them alive and breathing and knowing they’re yours. Regardless of whether it isn’t a wild mustang or not.
If someone trained that Heck Cow to go into the water and pull back nets…. sure we’d look at him funny, but his cow is doing the work of a St. Johns. Still doesn’t make it a St. Johns water cow. I know I know. Where am I going with this….
If you want to recreate the breed for the glory of seeing what it was then it requires the whole package to earn it the label of the targeted breed. otherwise at least in the eyes of those who glorified the results of the past, you’ve fallen short of the mark. And I guess I agree just up until the point when one of those dogs that looks the part actually is trained to do the job. Then what becomes the next excuse to say it ain’t the same dog?
If the mixing of dogs to recreate what was lost winds up successful then it benefits all the progeny from the original. Diversity is also recreated and strengthened in that process. And that is ultimately beneficial for all the dogs used to create it and all dogs created afterwards. Even ones that look like Goldens.
I see that American Water Spaniels look similar to Tweed Water Spaniels. Some substitution is acceptable.
“In today’s day and age we still cull, but we call it spay/neuter.”
Yes. That is how breeders with a vision attempt to cull for the benefit of their breeding program. On this we agree.
On everything else, we are are apparently speaking different languages again–I’ve clearly failed (miserably) to make my point, and I have no idea what you just said.
Just thinking about trying again has exhausted me.
Going to put this one (and myself) to bed…
I’m enjoying your recently discovered blog.
Twelve years ago we bred our AKC registered, black female Labrador Retreiver from Georgia, to an AKC registered yellow lab male from Texas. Both met AKC standards and had, no white. We had 4 yellow puppies and 5 black. I was shocked to see that all of the black puppies had white on them. Two just on the feet, but three had white on their chests as well, and one of these puppies, at about 8 weeks began to sport a very different type of coat. As she grew, her coat got longer, thicker and wavy, with a super undercoat. Her webbed feet were wider than the other puppies also.
Research led me to the unique and beautiful St. John’s water dog. I am not a professional breeder and this was my one and only litter, as all I wanted was a puppy from my sweet lab. But I soon learned to appreciate how unique and special these beautiful little guys were, even though they would never win an AKC show. At 12 weeks six of my puppies went to their new homes. I kept three of the pups. One was the beautiful female with white feet and “funny” coat.
My sweet Boo is almost 12 years old now. She doesn’t haul fishing nets, but I think she has inherited the most wonderful trait of the St. John’s water dog, adaptability. She retreives, babysits small children, has nurtured abandoned kittens, assists my elderly parents and is the perfect family companion.
I recently learned the gene for ‘long wavy hair’ had been identified and breeders would begin testing for it and ultimately eliminate this trait. I understand breeders want to improve the breed and have puppies that will grow to be as close to the standards as possible. However, I think it would be sad if, in our attempt to create the perfect AKC standard and eliminate any ‘throw backs”, we completely erase any trace of their ancestor, the St. John’s Water Dog.
I ha ve a dog that I would like you to see.he is remarkable.he is the only one out of twelve puppies that looks like a st johns and mom and dad where black labs.please get back to me I will email a pic
Email me at retrieverman1(at)yahoo(dot)com.
I can’t believe an important breed like the St. John’s water dog was allowed to become extinct. Especially during the 80’s when animal extinction awareness was high. Is the AKC sure these Dogs are extinct? Have all possibilities been explored?
There are black dogs that roam around some parts of Newfoundland. These dogs likely to have some of the old St. John’s blood, but they have been heavily polluted with modern Labrador retriever blood from North America and the UK.
Aren’t there blood test that can be done to prove if someone says they have a St. John’s water dog? But I have a dog not saying he’s a St. John’s water dog but looks like one but we found him wild in the woods. I’ve had him about 8 years and doctors say he’s about 20 years old now.
There are no blood tests, but there are dogs in Newfoundland that likely have this blood. They call them eider dogs or Cape Shore water dogs. They are heavily crossed with modern Labrador retrievers though.