• Home
  • About
  • Contact
  • Patreon
  • Premium Membership
  • Services

Natural History

by Scottie Westfall

Feeds:
Posts
Comments
« Reference search
Miley’s Christmas Bone »

The origin and evolution of the wavy-coated retriever

December 25, 2010 by SWestfall3

I have been trying to find a way to answer an unresolved “Identify the Breed” query for over a week now, but I have found the only to do it justice is to answer it is through historical analysis.

So this post will identify the breed in question and then explain how this fits into retrievers.

Ch. Kerry Palmerston was prominent Irish setter in the very early part of the twentieth century.

He is different from a modern Irish setter of the AKC show type, but reminds me very much of this Russian Irish setter:

Source for image. (History of Irish setters in Russia).

It is not accidental that some Irish setters do look like retrievers.

This Irish setter in W.E. Mason’s Dogs of All Nations (1915) has the same head and ears that Miley has:

Irish setters were used to refine modern flat-coated retriever in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. It is Irish setters of this type that were crossed in, not the very feathered Irish setters we see in the show ring.

However, the setter influence on retrievers began long before these Irish setters were crossbred with flat-coats.

The original wavy-coated retriever began as a synthesis between the St. John’s water dog and some kind of retrieving setter.

Writing in the 1870’s, Stonehenge described the origin of the wavy-coated retriever:

The Large Black Retriever is known by his resemblance to the small Newfoundland, and the Irish water spaniel, or setter, between which two he is bred, and the forms of which he partakes of in nearly equal proportions, according to the cross. Hence the modern retriever is distinguished as either the curly-coated or wavy-coated, separate classes being made for them at most of our shows, and sometimes a third depending on color alone.

The Wavy-coated Retriever has a head like that of a heavy setter, but with shorter ears, less clothed with hair. The body is altogether larger and heavier, the limbs stronger, the feet less compact than those of the setter, while the gait more or less resembles in its peculiarities that of the Newfoundland. The color is almost always black, with very little white; indeed, most people would reject a retriever of this kind, if accidentally of any other color. The coat is slightly wavy, but not very long or curly; and the legs are but little feathered. The night is usually about 23 or 24 inches, sometimes slightly more or less. This dog can readily be made to set and back; and he will also hunt as well as a setter, but slowly, and lasting for a short time only.

–Stonehenge (John Henry Walsh), The Dogs of Great Britain.

The wavy-coats that evolved from breeding setters to “small Newfoundlands” (St. John’s water dogs) varied in appearance from very setterish to very looking something like a long-haired English Labrador:

Paris and Melody were early wavy-coated retrievers, and they show the variance that existed between a strain that had both St. John's water dog and retrieving setter at its base.

In the early days of the wavy-coated retriever as a show dog, the “St. John’s” type was preferred. They were often called “Labradors” in the early literature, although it is likely that at least some of these dogs were long-haired, unlike the modern Labrador retriever or the last surviving St. John’s water dog that were still living in Newfoundland in the 1980’s. Zelstone very strongly resembles a dog of this type:

Ch. Zelstone, b. 1880.

Nous, the foundational sire of the Guisachan line on which the golden retrievers were based, was also of this St. John’s water dog type, although of a gold coloration:

However, as time progressed, it was decided that the heavier built type was less efficient than the more lightly built dog.

Rawdon Lee wrote in his A History and Description of the Dogs of Great Britain and Ireland (Sporting Division)(1894) that in the early days of the wavy-coatedflat-coated breed that everyone wanted the “little Newfoundland type,” just in case someone shot a big hare:

Some of the early specimens were pure and simple little Newfoundlands, and it has taken a few years’ careful work to bring the wavy retriever to what it is at the present time. Not too big but just big enough. Our grandfathers said, “Oh! we want a big retriever, a strong ‘un; one that can jump a gate with an 8lb. hare in its mouth, and gallop with one at full speed.” This is not so now. A comparatively small dog is well able to carry a hare, and shooting is so precise that puss does not run as far as she did, when properly hit. Dogs are not made to assist bad shooters to fill a bag; and a man who cannot, in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, stop a hare before she has run seventy yards, ought not to fire at another. And you do not require to have a special dog for that one chance in a hundred.

Lee also claimed that Paris, who is depicted above, was almost a “pure Labrador,” meaning that he had definite St. John’s water dog ancestry. However, by the end of the nineteenth century, the tendency was to select for a more setter-like build (and some more setter blood was likely crossed in as an extension of this desire. Lee thinks this tendency is just as bad as breeding for the heavy and coarse dogs:

At the present time there is a tendency to produce the wavy-coated retrievers with an inclination to the type and shape of head possessed by the setters. This is, no doubt, due to the fallacy carried out in breeding for straight coats, which are all very well in their way, attractive enough in the show ring, but thoroughly bad from a workman’s point of view. During my somewhat lengthened connection with dog shows I have noticed that, as a rule, the straightest and flattest coated dogs have the greatest tendency to the longer setter-like heads. If breeding for this coat in preference to that of type of head and character is continued, mischief will be done which may not be so easy to remedy as the variety was to be produced in the first instance. I would especially recommend the judges, in dealing with this retriever, to give more credit for the correct type of head than than for an actually and perfectly flat coat, not forgetting that the dog was originally “wavy-coated” quite as much as his jacket was straight.

But even then, the more lightly built type was seen as more functional in the field. George Teasdale-Buckell wrote in The Complete English Shot (1907) about Zelstone:

He was a flat-coated retriever Champion, and may have been himself a good worker; but he ruined the working qualities of the descendants of Jenny above mentioned, and brought the author’s strain of them to an end. Consequently, it is suggested that the Newfoundland is the type to breed out of the flat coats.

Teasdale-Buckell believed the functional conformation for flat-coats should always be away from the heavier-boned type. The flat-coat would always have a future when “he is bred more wiry and less lumbering.”

Don of Gerwn was a liver flat-coat, whose sire was a dog of Tweedmouth's strain (which is the basis of the golden retriever). He was of the type that George Teasdale-Buckell liked.

And that is how the flat-coated retriever evolved from the wavy-coat, which had both setter and St. John’s water dog types in it.

The golden retriever, although definitely influenced by the same forces that changed the flat-coat, held onto the heavier wavy-coated type a bit longer. I find the tendency in the golden retriever is to look at some of the early Guisachan dogs, which definitely had this type, and say that this is the only type. In reality, they were nothing more than reflection of the fact that they were early wavy-coated types.

This fact was not missed by the Reverend E.N. Needham-Davies, who wrote in Gundogs–Their Training, Working, and Management, that the golden strongly resembled the original small Newfoundland (St. John’s water dog) that was at the base of the retriever family. He believed that goldens had been one strain of flat-coat that generally been free of crosses with setters. I think one can make the case that the main Guisachan strain had little of Irish setter influence. The red setter that was crossed in was much more likely a variant of red Gordon setter, which Richard Ansdell portrayed in “The Gamekeeper”:

However, I highly suspect that many goldens that were registered in the foundational pedigrees were by-product of breeding Irish setters to flat-coats. Although the preferred color was always black in flat-coats, e/e reds could always be hidden as recessives. When these were born, they were faulty, but if one could register them as goldens and breed them into goldens, they would have been a definite source for both the dark color and setter ancestry. These darker colored more flat-coatish or setterish dogs were quite common in the 1920’s and 30’s and still make up the bulk of the working-line goldens in North America. I’ve noted that the early dogs in this country really resemble what we would call field-line dogs today.  The working-type golden is really based upon the  flat-coat that existed in the the very early part of the twentieth century.

The modern flat-coat has evolved along even more setter-like lines. Additions of Irish setter blood gave the flat-coat an even more gracile frame. It also reduced the density of its undercoat, which is very different from that of a typical golden, which is still bred to be quite dense.  A significant minority of flat-coats also point, a trait that is uncommon in goldens (but still pops up every once in a while).

The show-type golden retriever as it exists now is  actually an attempt to breed for the old-type wavy-coat.   It may be one feature that has driven for a split between show and working types in the breed. This Newfoundland-type is less agile than the more lithe and wiry type we typically seen in the working bred dogs.

One must remember that in British retriever trials, the dogs must retrieve where ever the bird falls. If the dog must jump a fence to get the bird, he must jump the fence. A big lumbering dog is going to have  hard time jumping the fence, so trial breeders were not going to select for his conformation.

Trialling mean that the flat-coated retriever would move away from the heavier-bodied type. Trialling changes the size and shape of dogs almost as easily as actual conformation showing does. The St. John’s water dog type would simply be bred out of the flat-coat over time.

However, as the golden retriever became a separate breed, the tendency was to breed for a conformation that truly distinguished it from the flat-coat. Because the original dogs at Guisachan were of the heavier old wavy-coat type, the decision was breed goldens with a bit heavier bone and better sprung ribs than the typical flat-coat. Winifred Charlesworth strongly encourages breeding for more bone in the golden in her contribution to Joselyn Lucas’s Pedigree Dog Breeding–For Profit or Pleasure. Of course, she was operating under the assumption that these dogs were derived from some kind of Russian dog, and their unique conformation did not come from the fact that the early Guisachan dogs were very typical of many of the wavy-coats that existed at that time. It was the Reverend Needham-Davies who figured out that many goldens were actually exhibiting the old Newfoundland-type wavy-coated retriever conformation.

So out of a founding strain that was primarily a cross between a setter and St. John’s water dog (“Labrador” or “Newfoundland” type of dog), the dogs evolved. Trials led to the selection away from the heavier-boned type, and it was only out of the foundation of the golden retriever as a distinct breed that anyone would try to breed for that type. It has helped distinguish the show-type golden from its flat-coat cousin very clearly. One can easily tell when one is looking at modern yellow flat-coat instead of a golden retriever.

However, if the two dogs had remained within the same gene pool, and the flat-coat had remained the dominant trial and show retriever in Britain, it is unlikely that the two would have diverged at all in conformation. Any goldens that retained the heavier conformation would have disappeared, just as any black flat-coats would have done the same.

But as different breeds, they had to have different conformation.

I am sure that similar stories exist with other breeds that have split apart in this fashion. I can show you many photos of goldens in the UK and North America that today would make nice moderate flat-coats, and I can show you others fo wavy and flat-coated retrievers– like Zelstone in this post– who had conformation very similar to the modern show-type golden.

The original wavy-coated retriever existed within the Paris and Melody continuum. Breeding for trials meant that the Paris-types in the greater wavy-coat type were to become rarer.  When the golden retriever became a distinct breed, one of its distinct traits became the desire to breed for a more Paris-like dog.

Out of a diverse type came selection for trials and then selection for distinctiveness in both flat-coated and golden retrievers. This diversity still exists to a degree in golden retrievers, which have coalesced into working types (Melody/setterish/flat-coat-types) and show dogs (Paris/Zelstone/St. John’s water dog/Labrador/ Newfoundland types).

 

 

Share this:

  • Twitter
  • Facebook
  • Reddit
  • Print
  • Tumblr
  • Pinterest
  • LinkedIn
  • Email

Like this:

Like Loading...

Posted in Flat-coated retriever, golden retriever, golden retriever history, Labrador retriever, Retriever history, Uncategorized, working dogs, working retrievers | Tagged Flat-coated retriever, golden retriever, Irish setter, St. John's Water Dog | 11 Comments

11 Responses

  1. on December 26, 2010 at 6:38 pm retrieverman

    Another source for the heavier bone in goldens is said to come from the Tweed Water dog/Tweed water spaniel.

    The flat-coat historian Stanley O’Neill came across a pair of reddish colored Tweed water dogs on the coast of Northumberland coast around the beginning of the twentieth centuries. The dogs were being used to net salmon, and he thought they were curly-coated retrievers. When he was informed of their breed, he was surprised to learn that they existed.

    He remarked that the dogs looked like heavily boned retrievers. However, I question how much influence actually came from this regional dog. It seems the main bulk of golden ancestors were within the wavy-coated retriever family.

    Tweed water dogs (note that I am hesitant to call them spaniels) were more like curly-coated retrievers than water spaniels. That’s because if we read Richard Lawrence’s account of them in The Complete Farrier and British Sportsman, he points out that the breed had a lot of “Newfoundland” crossed in.


  2. on December 26, 2010 at 9:57 pm HTTrainer

    I think we discussed this earlier, aasn’t the Tweed Water Dog
    a variety of the Irish Water Spaniel?


    • on December 26, 2010 at 10:03 pm retrieverman

      Hugh Dalziel’s book put them with the Irish water spaniels.

      I don’t think that’s accurate.

      Britain had tons of regional water spaniels.

      I think this dog was a cross between the water spaniel of Northumberland and the Scottish Borders and some form of Newfoundland.


  3. on December 27, 2010 at 11:31 am M.R.S.

    There are extant photographs of Nous (yellow wavy-coated retriever) and also photos / paintings of his offspring Crocus, Ada, and Cowslip, all from the breeding of Nous to Belle (Tweed Water Spaniel, as noted in the Guisachan record book). While Nous was a stocky dog with a heavy, quite wavy coat, his offspring were somewhat more slender in build and less wavy in coat. All were definitely golden in color (not cream, not red). Photos of other Guisachan dogs show a range of shades from light golden to dark.

    I do not believe there was ever any concious effort to breed heavier dogs in order to regain “old type”; it is far more likely simply that more heavily-boned dogs were deemed more attractive and likely to win in the show ring (this happens in very many breeds!).

    The red setter Sampson used in the Guisachan strain may or may not have been “Gordon” in origin; certainly there were many other native strains including solid color black, liver, cream, yellow. In fact, there are references in old writings that black Irish setters were fairly common. Before the Kennel Club registry, setters (like retrievers) were of numerous strains/varieties rather than separated breeds.

    The dark shades that were popular during the 1920s-1930s may or may not have come from a setter influence. it is just as likely, in my mind, that they came from unregistered dogs of unrecorded background, that entered the gene pool in substantial numbers before WWII; this includes Normanby Beauty, founder of the Normanby/Noranby line and who herself was of unrecorded parentage. I would not be surprised if there was a fair amount of spaniel (as in field/springer type) heritage also included. If you can find a copy of Ash’s “History and Development of the Dog” there is a photo of Mrs Charlesworth’s “golden springer” Noranby Nell…illustrating that land spaniels also came in solid red/gold.


  4. on December 27, 2010 at 12:25 pm M.R.S.

    When mention is made of “Irish water spaniels” it should be kept in mind that that includes not only the Southern type (M’Carthy’s type, the sort we think of today with topknot. long curly coat, and rat tail) but also a Northern type. The latter resembled a rather plain general retriever-type with unfeathered coat. One or two writers also include the “Irish Tweed water spaniel” which makes little sense, as the Tweed River is in south-eastern Scotland– unless perhaps there was a strain of the TWS kept by someone in Ireland…


  5. on October 18, 2011 at 8:27 pm New genome-wide study sheds light on dog breed relationships « Retrieverman's Weblog

    […] flat-coated retrievers fit within the golden retriever breed. As I’ve noted, golden retrievers reflect much of the diversity in phenotype that existed within the old wavy and f….  Goldens and flat-coats share many foundational sires and dams, and one would expect that […]


  6. on August 3, 2012 at 10:56 pm Tip, a St. John’s water dog « The Retriever, Dog, & Wildlife Blog

    […] The origin and evolution of the wavy-coated retriever […]


  7. on October 2, 2012 at 2:08 pm The British white retriever? « The Retriever, Dog, & Wildlife Blog

    […] of this breed. It’s always been very diverse in terms of its conformation. It shows traits of the old Newfoundlandish wavy-coated retrievers and more gracile modern flat-coated retrievers. Everyone has his or her own aesthetics and preferences for a golden retriever. I prefer a […]


  8. on October 13, 2012 at 8:38 pm Breed islands « The Retriever, Dog, & Wildlife Blog

    […] didn’t exist as breeds. There were only two divisions:  a curly-coated retriever and a way-coated retriever/St. John’s water dog type, which included feathered and smooth coats. The dogs that became the Chesapeake Bay retriever in the […]


  9. on June 1, 2013 at 10:12 am A Philadelphia Newfoundland from sometime around the turn of the last century | The Retriever, Dog, & Wildlife Blog

    […] The origin and evolution of the wavy-coated retriever […]


  10. on June 6, 2013 at 7:34 am Golden retrievers don’t have bloodhound in them | The Retriever, Dog, & Wildlife Blog

    […] The origin and evolution of the wavy-coated retriever […]



Comments are closed.

  • Like on Facebook

    The Retriever, Dog, and Wildlife Blog

    Promote Your Page Too
  • Blog Stats

    • 9,592,919 hits
  • Retrieverman’s Twitter

    • @cyborgsuzy I hated all my time in the DC area. Same reason. Toxic culture. Makes you feel like you're in some kin… twitter.com/i/web/status/1… 9 hours ago
    • @TetZoo That was the proto QAnon conspiracy theory. Wow. America is sending out lots of toxic slime conspiracy theo… twitter.com/i/web/status/1… 4 days ago
    • @cyborgsuzy Sounds like it would work. In theory.... 1 week ago
    • 2 people followed me // automatically checked by fllwrs.com 1 week ago
    • one person unfollowed me // automatically checked by fllwrs.com 1 week ago
  • Google rank

    Check Google Page Rank
  • Archives

    • October 2020
    • September 2020
    • August 2020
    • July 2020
    • June 2020
    • May 2020
    • April 2020
    • February 2020
    • January 2020
    • December 2019
    • November 2019
    • October 2019
    • September 2019
    • August 2019
    • July 2019
    • June 2019
    • May 2019
    • April 2019
    • March 2019
    • February 2019
    • January 2019
    • December 2018
    • November 2018
    • October 2018
    • September 2018
    • August 2018
    • July 2018
    • June 2018
    • May 2018
    • April 2018
    • March 2018
    • February 2018
    • January 2018
    • December 2017
    • November 2017
    • October 2017
    • September 2017
    • August 2017
    • July 2017
    • June 2017
    • May 2017
    • April 2017
    • March 2017
    • February 2017
    • January 2017
    • December 2016
    • November 2016
    • October 2016
    • September 2016
    • August 2016
    • July 2016
    • June 2016
    • May 2016
    • April 2016
    • March 2016
    • February 2016
    • January 2016
    • December 2015
    • November 2015
    • October 2015
    • September 2015
    • August 2015
    • July 2015
    • June 2015
    • May 2015
    • April 2015
    • March 2015
    • February 2015
    • January 2015
    • December 2014
    • November 2014
    • October 2014
    • September 2014
    • August 2014
    • July 2014
    • June 2014
    • May 2014
    • April 2014
    • March 2014
    • February 2014
    • January 2014
    • December 2013
    • November 2013
    • October 2013
    • September 2013
    • August 2013
    • July 2013
    • June 2013
    • May 2013
    • April 2013
    • March 2013
    • February 2013
    • January 2013
    • December 2012
    • November 2012
    • October 2012
    • September 2012
    • August 2012
    • July 2012
    • June 2012
    • May 2012
    • April 2012
    • March 2012
    • February 2012
    • January 2012
    • December 2011
    • November 2011
    • October 2011
    • September 2011
    • August 2011
    • July 2011
    • June 2011
    • May 2011
    • April 2011
    • March 2011
    • February 2011
    • January 2011
    • December 2010
    • November 2010
    • October 2010
    • September 2010
    • August 2010
    • July 2010
    • June 2010
    • May 2010
    • April 2010
    • March 2010
    • February 2010
    • January 2010
    • December 2009
    • November 2009
    • October 2009
    • September 2009
    • August 2009
    • July 2009
    • June 2009
    • May 2009
    • April 2009
    • March 2009
    • February 2009
    • January 2009
    • December 2008
    • November 2008
    • October 2008
    • September 2008
    • August 2008
    • July 2008
  • Recent Comments

    markgelbart on Retiring this Space
    oneforestfragment on Retiring this Space
    The Evolving Natural… on So does the maned wolf break t…
    SWestfall3 on So does the maned wolf break t…
    Ole Possum on So does the maned wolf break t…
  • Meta

    • Register
    • Log in
    • Entries feed
    • Comments feed
    • WordPress.com
  • Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email.

    Join 1,703 other followers

  • Pages

    • About
    • Contact
    • Patreon
    • Premium Membership
    • Services
  • Subscribe to Retrieverman's Weblog by Email
  • Revolver map

    Map

  • Top Posts

    • The Alaskan Noble Companion Dog
  • SiteCounter

    wordpress analytics
    View My Stats
  • Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email.

    Join 1,703 other followers

  • Donate to this blog

  • Top 50 Northwest Dog Blogs

    top 50 dog blogs

Blog at WordPress.com.

WPThemes.


Cancel

 
Loading Comments...
Comment
    ×
    loading Cancel
    Post was not sent - check your email addresses!
    Email check failed, please try again
    Sorry, your blog cannot share posts by email.
    %d bloggers like this: