The Epagneul Pont-Audemer is something like a water spaniel crossed with a Brittany.
It is widely used as a water dog– a kind of French working retriever. However, like all French spaniels, it can work very nicely as an index dog.
The dogs were developed in Normandy near Pont-Audemer and are believed to have derived from crossing barbet and poodle-type water dogs with the ancestors of the Brittany, the Picardy, and French spaniel breeds. The are essentially the French equivalent of the British water spaniels, which evolved from crossing the non-pointing spaniels of British Isles with the poodle-type water dog.
This similarity was recognized with the Pont-Audemer breed nearly became extinct after the Second World War. Irish water spaniels were crossed with the Pont-Audemers to increase genetic diversity.
The breed still remains quite rare. It as much as indigenous and peculiar to Normandy as the American water spaniel is indigenous and peculiar to Wisconsin.
The two dogs depicted in this post are liver roans. However, the breed also comes in solid liver or liver and white with ticking that is little less than roan.
I am going to count this breed as one of the surviving water spaniel breeds, which brings us to a grand total of four surviving water spaniels: the American, the Irish, the Boykin, and the Pont-Audemer. The two breeds of curly-coated retriever are clearly close relatives to these dogs, but I am counting them as retrievers.
There are also other French spaniels that seem to be IWS cousins.
AWS & Curlies are supposed to have IWS as ancestors that were used to create those breeds.
If you look at images of the old, now extinct, English Water Spaniel, it bears a strong resemblance to the English Springer Spaniel. What I’m trying to say is that none of this is cut & dried. There have been many crosses over time of which we’re ignorant.
Let’s also not forget all the different water dogs. Their descendants include Poodles, Porties, & don’t forget to check the full FCI list of dogs as well.
None of the distinctions of retriever vs spaniel vs water dog are clear, so it’s extremely difficult to differentiate, especially as many dogs were used for multiple purposes.
There’s also the Barbet, the Spanish Water Dog, Lagatto Romagnolo, Portuguese Water Dog, etc.
A retriever has a lot of St. John’s water dog in it.
That’s how I define it.
But the lineage of ALL the dogs mentioned is somewhat lost, hence difficult to “fix.” I also don’t see any purpose in separating retrievers from spaniels — it’s more of a modern conceit.
It’s less lost than–say– scent hounds.
Retrievers basically absorbed all the water spaniels in the British Isles, except for one. And the only reason why that one didn’t get absorbed is because it was Irish and there are no indigenous retrievers in Ireland.
The Twee water spaniel probably shouldn’t be regarded as a water spaniel. It’s really a regional variant that could have easily been classified as a type of curly-coated retriever. It, like the curly, was a mix of an indigenous water spaniel and a St. John’s water dog.
Water spaniel is poodle-type water dog crossed with either a spaniel of some sort or a setter of some sort. The indigenous water dog of Britain was called rough water dog or water rugge. It was a big poodle type dog. It is the ancestor of both the water spaniels and the retrievers– and probably had some role in founding the Newfoundland and St. John’s water dogs as well.
I have an 18th century print that in the relevant section lists: Aquaticus minor or Small Water Dog, Aquaticus major or Large Water Spaniel, Aquaticus Hirsutus or Rough Water Dog. It also lists: Hispaniolus subsidens or Setter & Hispaniolus Saltator or Cocker. The other breeds mentioned aren’t relevant to this discussion. The print is in English & Latin. There are also various sight & scent hounds mentioned.
Having looked at your other article — in spite of the citations, it’s all conjecture without breeding records.
FYI, Water Spaniels are mentioned as far back as Roman records in reference to tribute by the locals.
The print was framed YEARS ago & I’m not going to open it up merely for this discussion.
No they are not.
Water spaniels appear in the late Middle Ages.
I beg to differ.
You are wrong.
I am a bit off. I think it was something like the 1400’s that the water spaniels first appeared.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
There is a clipped dog that looks like a poodle on a Roman coin.
Is that a poodle?
I have no clue.
According to IWS accounts, water spaniels, not IWS, DO appear among listings of tribute. We can agree to disagree.
https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/the-history-of-water-dogs/
Sadly, this article contains quite inaccurate information. The origin of the “Ponto” is very well-known and is a cross between the Irish Water Spaniel and the (working) English Setter that, almost certainly, came from Italy. I have been peripherally involved with the introduction of new IWS blood into the Ponto and I know the leading breeder(s) very well.
Sincerely
Martyn Ford
Need sources.
The Picardy and Blue Picardy both have English setter ancestry.
These dogs look too much like Picardy to deny their influence on the breed. (Liver roan color for example).
I don’t deny that English setter is in them. I doubt that the French would found a breed on an Irish water spaniel and English setter cross. I have a French gun dog book that makes fun of Irish water spaniels and can’t figure out why they even exist.
Every source I have, says Picardy spaniel, not English setter.
Maybe when after WWII, they used some English setter or Blue Picardys, which do have English setter in them.
http://www.sarahsdogs.com/breeds/pont-audemer_spaniel/
IMNSHO, it all and always goes back to the Poodle. But, then, you know this already, Scottie.;-)
I’ll remind you of the fabulous Poodle History Project (a page of which can be found here – http://www.poodlehistory.org/PDUCKGU.HTM)
And for a fun look at the Poodle’s place in 15th century falconry, zoom in on the right side of this image and gaze on the light-colored “moustachioed” poodle here – http://www.flickr.com/photos/medievalandrenaissance/3324634235/sizes/l/in/photostream/.
As for which came first – the Barbet or the Poodle or the many different Water Dogges, I still love reading this – http://www.poodlehistory.org/RCRIB.HTM#RCRIB
And looking at this – http://www.poodlehistory.org/PZZGPV1.HTM
It seems to me that the biggest difference between water spaniels and the poodle and poodle-type breeds (Including the Rough Water Dog), is the coat pattern. Those generally called water spaniels have short hair on the face, and often on the fronts of the legs. They very often had/have quite curly coats. Poodle-types (for lack of a better term) have long coat on those areas.
I’ve seen many depictions of water spaniels, from early woodcuts to Reinagle’s engravings to late 19th century photographs. They are not poodle-types. All have smooth faces. And I agree with Florence, retrievers are very likely more closely allied to spaniels than to setter, (although setters owe much to spaniels as well).
Then again, both coat patterns apparently exist in the modern Portuguese Water Dog. So perhaps there is heritage from more than one source of coat-type in this breed.
I have seen some F2 goldendoodles that have topknots and a smooth face.
Here’s one as a youngster: http://searchwarp.com/UserImages/946_doodle_brodycottingham20063.jpg
You are more likely to get these by breeding back to goldens, but they usually breed back to poodles.
Yes, in the F2. I think likely that all the first generation (F1) Golden x poodle are not smooth-faced. Fairly clear that these are two distinct coat patterns, inherited separately.
If one were inclined, and had some years to do a planned breeding program, it would be quite possible to re-create the English Water Spaniel or the Tweed Water Spaniel. Whether it would be worth the effort is another question.
And that is an adorable puppy! (but so many are…)
I actually did a post on that photo, making the joke that it was a Tweed.
https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/05/07/tweed-water-spaniel-puppy/
Many F1 goldendoodles and Labradoodles remind me of the rough water dogs described in Markham’s Hunger’s Prevention.
Another: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/goldendoodlephotos7.htm
Scroll down to Jackson.
Funny! The first thought was “are you sure there wasn’t an Afghan hound lurking about?” But the same topknot and cheek tufts, fuzzy lips, sometimes occur in cockers and springers. Not in purebred Goldens. In fact, some modern Cockers (especially blacks) can have entirely long-coated faces. Untrimmed, they are quite poodle-y looking. The result of breeding for more and more hair…
Ponto owner, admirer here.
Good discussion! Lots of good info but a few misconceptions as well.
First of all, the Ponto is not a water dog per se. While it does have a water dog heritage (Irish and old English water spaniels), it is a pointing breed. It is in the FCI group 7 for pointing breeds and runs in pointing breed field trials, tests and is used, for the most part, as a pointing dog in the hunting field.
Secondly it is not a very old breed, but like all the epagneul breeds, traces its roots chiens couchants or chiens d’oysels mentioned by Gaston Febus in the 14th century. It was developed in the Normandy and Picardy regions of France in the 19th century in much the same was as the other epagneul breeds: local versions of setting dogs (French spaniels) were crossed with English dogs brought over by visiting English sportsmen. But while the other epagneul breeds mainly crossed to pointers and setters, Ponto breeders crossed to water spaniels….hence the curls, top knot and (in theory) excellent water work.
Here are some photos of our Ponto Uma and some additional information on the breed.
http://chiendog.blogspot.com/2009/08/happy-birthday-uma.html
Sorry, forgot to add that the dog in the second photo of the initial post is my dog Uma’s mom. Her name is Rage de Vaincre des Coteaux de Yannijean and she is the only spring and fall field trial champion in Ponto breed history.
I have a Ponto in L.A the breeder told us he was the only one here!!! He’s very crazy and loves to play !!! By any chance is your dog wild ????? here is a link of him when he was a puppy ( in this photo he is in France)
http://studiocity.patch.com/announcements/pont-audemer-spaniel-3
My dog”s name is Flocon ( snowflake)
Does your dog hunt by any chance ??
I also have a ponto his name is Flocon.
http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2011/05/pont-audemer-spaniel.html
You’re going to love my next post!