Is he being clicker training for a formal retrieve or is he first being taught basic retrieving behavior through the clicker? Some dogs without the natural drive to retrieve do very well with clicker training, though I’ve always noticed a marked difference between those that have been taught to perform the behavior and those that do it out of pure joy of fulfilling genetic drives.
So I guess you’re only using the clicker to refine a formal retrieve then?
I think it’s funny how American trialers tend to believe that force fetching is the only way to teach and proof a reliable retrieve. They also push their young dogs too hard and too quickly in training. In the UK, if you want a better retriever, then breed for it. I have two English Cockers who are natural retrievers and harsh methods are uncalled for in this breed as well. We did not use the clicker for any retrieving training, but we used it for recall, hup, and quartering.
I’ve been told it’s the same with prong collars also, hardly ever see them here, I know they are used, but I’ve actually yet to come across a dog wearing one in the everyday environment, same with shock collars btw.
My personal opinion and it is only that, is that shock collars should be reserved for the occasions where the dog maybe at risk of serious injury or death and the lesson needs to be learned quickly.
I just feel that to often they are used by people who don’t have the understanding and timing necessary to make it effective whilst attempting to reduce the potential negatives.
It is a tool I don’t think should be in the hands of most of the general public, nor do I feel most dogs in most situations need to be trained using one.
Sometimes I feel people just need to accept their dogs limitations rather than forcing it.
I remember reading threw the case studies used when the welsh were debating, some of them were quite miserable.
I don’t believe shock collars to be a harsh tool for training. I use them to proof training. Recall in particular. The absolute lowest settings are good enough for my Cockers. It seems as if a lot of American bred field type retrievers require a far heavier level of correction than would be typical of the breed. At least, that’s what I’ve noticed since coming to live in the states versus how it is overseas.
Going back to an earlier post by R-man about using Saints as retrievers, my last Saint, Sammie, loved to retrieve. He did it all on his own. At first, he was a little unclear on the concept of letting go when he brought it back to me, but a little gentle training (I turned my back on him till he dropped it) took care of that. As I recall, only one of my Saints didn’t retrieve naturally. The big problem w/ them is the mouth–they like to bite down. You can’t imagine the look of total bliss that would play across Sam’s face when he bit down on a soccer ball or basketball–they usually lasted less than a minute–and yes he took the entire ball in his mouth. He wasn’t nearly as pleased w/ the Unbreakoball I bought for him.
I guess it’s the difference between seeing retrieving as “play” and seeing it as “work.” I’ve only had Shelties and Italian Greyhounds, but IME dogs will generally learn what you expect them to learn with whatever time and patience you want to give it. All my dogs retrieve because it’s fun for them (and because we do Flyball). I understand “gun dog” culture is different, but even if I had a “gun dog” I certainly wouldn’t want to use force-fetch methods.
I’m a trainer in the UK and I use e collars and prong collars. I mostly use e collars for recall and aggression and prongs for leash reactivity. I mostly work with pet dogs, but with the occasional working gundog with an iffy recall thrown in.
Imo e collars and prongs are far more popualr in the UK than people realise but because of the attitude to them people hide their use. A modern e collar has a small reciever unit that can be concealed in thick fur or under another collar easily. A small guage prong can be covered with a bandana or similar.
I would much sooner someone used an e collar/prong collar and trained the dog to an acceptable level and the dog had a good life than stuck with ”nicer” methods and the dog had a poorer quality of life or no life at all!
Re retrieving, for play type retrieve I find making the toy more prey like and then when the dog grabs it swapping it for another toy works great. Clickers and marker training in general are good for polishing formal behaviours. A common mistake people make with fetching is to throw the toy at the start. The dog goes and grabs it but then ahs to come back and hand it over. Its better to break it down and practise the grab and hand over near you for a really good reward then ad distance ect later.
if laika cannot be trained without harsh punishment then it should be drowned
pavel is a very good dog. too many our laiki are not like this anymore. they used to be very good under tree and retrieving most now are idiots for boars. i do not understand why moscow wants boar idiots. any dog can hunt boars why laika?