Natural History

Posted in Absolute Piffle | 32 Comments

32 Responses

1. on December 30, 2012 at 9:36 pm massugu

   Gee, I didn’t know that folks in WV were using semi-automatics to hunt deer–silly me. Guess if you were lucky you could take out a whole herd at once huh? (along with bushes, trees, and anything else w/in the pattern.)

   
   
   • on December 30, 2012 at 9:42 pm retrieverman

     The weapons used in deer hunting are semi-automatic:

     http://hunting.about.com/od/toppicks/tp/tp_auto_rifles.htm

     
     
     • on December 31, 2012 at 2:19 pm massugu

       We use shotguns here in MD–lot of kick but you have time to get your aim back so you know what you’re shooting at.

       
       
       • on December 31, 2012 at 10:05 pm massugu

         I’m reminded of a story, published many years ago, about a bunch of rich Arabs going out into the desert in jeeps mounted w/ machine guns–ostensibly to hunt Gazelles. Hunting is supposed to be a sport that calls for patience, practice and accuracy, not ballistic mayhem. I used a rifle in WI to shoot groundhogs and such and never once had a need for rapid-fire. What’s next, M24’s & M40’s so that we can shoot deer over in the next county w/o ever leaving the front porch?

         
         
         • on January 1, 2013 at 12:01 am retrieverman

           People have always used semi-automatics to hunt deer. They aren’t assault weapons. Most deer rifles that you buy are semi-automatic. that’s what everyone uses in West Virginia, and because they are so accurate, they are much more humane than shotguns.

           There is a difference between this: http://www.woodburyoutfitters.com/product_p/2127.htm

           And this: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_60/products_id/62628/Bushmaster+ORC+Semi-Automatic+308+Winchester+20%2B1+Capacity+1

           Just about everyone in West Virginia hunts with a semi-automatic rifle. It’s almost a requirement, so when you say you want to ban the latter gun or at least make it harder to get, do not say you want to ban semi-automatic rifles.

           You instantly start the NRA conspiracy theorists down their paths of absolute zaniness.

           Also keep in mind, that in West Virginia people are mostly not hunting for sport. Venison is the red meat for so many families.

           If you say that they can’t have their deer rifles, you’ve got a big problem on your hands.

           Very common deer rifle: http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/autoloading-model-750.aspx

           We’re not talking something that can cut a deer in half, but this is a pretty standard deer rifle. The reason why people have that kind of gun is that not all shots are perfect the first time, and if you wound the deer on your first shot, you still want to be able to drop it to avoid needless suffering.

           The gun laws I support are regulations on the size of the clip, closing the gun show loophole that stops background checks, and making it hard to get an assault type rifle. I know people who have these kinds of guns. They aren’t crazy, but I think we can come up with a system that ensure those kinds of guns wind up in the hands of competent people.

           There is common ground to be hand on guns, but we have to be careful what we say. Both sides have to recognize this. Otherwise, all we’re going to get is people talking past each other and breeding more hatred and distrust.

           
           
           • on January 1, 2013 at 5:34 am megrim43

             I can`t see how you can have any effective gun regulation without an accurate knowledge of what is already out there, and a rigorous system of background and health checks.

             I know that Americans think our NHS was created by Joe Stalin, but it works, and as far as gun licences are concerned, it provides a standardised nationwide database for quick and easy health checking.

             My friend has a son who hunts….well, not this year. When he applied for licence renewal, the automatic health check threw up a bar. No, he isn`t mentally impaired. But his doctor had said that his diabetes was not being adequately regulated. The police said, “Try again next year”, and refused him a renewal.

             As an observer, I would guess that there will be no change in US gun laws. I will be interested to see what happens.

             Elizabeth

             
             
           • on January 1, 2013 at 11:09 am massugu

             I think we’re in violent agreement here, but there are actually two issues being discussed:
             1) Semi-automatics for hunting: I prefer pump and lever-action weapons, I feel more in control of the weapon & believe them more sporting. I’ve used gas-operated automatics (M14s) and semis–didn’t like either. But to each his own. This issue of using shotguns vice rifles has to do w/ length of trajectory–rifled rounds flying much further than shot gun shells thus providing more chance of collateral damage. As a corollary to that, multiple rounds have that much more chance of causing collateral damage.

             2) Federal measures in re gun control: I don’t want to “ban” guns–it didn’t work w/ alcohol or drugs and it won’t work w/ guns. What I do want to see is a meaningful dialogue among all concerned on ways to reduce access to military grade weaponry(*) by those w/ a record of being socially, mentally or emotionally unstable; as well as by children. I also agree w/ Mr. LaPierre that guns themselves are not the sole issue. Its not a binary situation. We need to attack this problem on all levels: education, culture, mental health, access, & size of magazines.

             (*I would however, like to see severe restrictions on military hardware like body armor, grenades, mortars, bazookas, RPGs–2 of which were turned in recently in an LA, CA, gun buy-back–& armor piercing rounds; most if not all of which are not remotely applicable to hunting or home defence.)

             
             
         • on January 1, 2013 at 7:16 am Dave

           Banning semi-automatics will prohibit people from purchasing cheap rifles they rely on for meat such as SKS. Without these rifles, the poor can no longer rely on cheaply-produced Soviet rifles which are popular among those on a budget.

           In Canada, handguns are limited to 10 rounds; shotguns are limited to 3 rounds; and centre-fire semi-automatics are limited to 5 rounds. There are no limitations for rim-fire or manually-operated firearms. Semi-automatic firearms which can be converted to full-automatic with a kit are also blacklisted.

           And so far, gun-owners in Canada are happy with those restrictions. What they are not happy with is the registry.

           
           
           • on January 1, 2013 at 7:32 am Dave

             Mind you, we have three classes of licenses: non-restricted (discussed above), restricted and prohibited. I have an uncle who has the prohibited license, for fun, and he is not crazy. Hunters only need the non-restricted.

             
             
           • on January 1, 2013 at 7:51 am chervilmeadow

             Actually, Elizabeth, when a diabetic starts getting a hypo (through too low blood sugar) he or she then becomes in effect mentally unstable until taking sugar to correct it. Therefore it is probably a good idea to stop anyone with insufficiently controlled diabetes form using a gun or driving a car. Anyone in the UK who admits to having had just two hypos is banned from driving.

             
             
             • on January 2, 2013 at 4:47 am megrim43

               Well, he wasn`t having hypos. Just not testing regularly. And a bit at odds with his doctor over that. He said he could sense his sugar levels and competence without such frequent testing. He is still driving.

               Elizabeth

               
               
         • on January 2, 2013 at 3:40 pm Jessica

           This debate always reminds me of the Wind and the Lion “The Europeans have guns that fire many times promiscuously and rend the Earth. There is no honor in this – nothing is decided from this.”

           
           
       • on January 1, 2013 at 3:07 pm cyborgsuzy

         Shotguns for deer hunting sounds very strange to me. The thing I like about my dad’s .270 semi-auto is the combo of accuracy, distance and power. He consistently drops deer (and even elk sometimes) with a single shot. Having the option for a very quick second shot means much less likely you wound and animal and end up tracking it for hours.

         
         
         • on January 4, 2013 at 12:13 pm massugu

           MD is heavily populated. The chance for collateral damage from rifled rounds are far higher here than in very rural or wilderness areas.

           
           
2. on December 31, 2012 at 9:17 pm cyborgsuzy

   My dad’s hunting rifle is semi-auto, but it’s not a f**king assault rifle, and the clip only holds 4 or 5 rounds. I use a bolt action myself.

   There has been so much stupidity about guns these last few weeks (on all “sides”, if there is such thing as “sides” in this “debate”) I’ve reached the point of skipping any news/blog/paper that even hints that it might talk on the subject.

   
   
   • on December 31, 2012 at 11:48 pm retrieverman

     It gets tiresome. The anti-gun people don’t understand that “semi-automatic” also refers to the most common weapons used in deer hunting, and the NRA is the NRA, which spreads conspiracy theories as one of its main MO’s.

     So when I hear people say “ban semiautomatics,” that means they have just decided to play into the conspiracy theorists’ hands and now we’re back to crazy talk on both sides.

     But it’s not just guns that we’re like this.

     Our institutions are now about like Russia’s and getting worse.

     
     
     • on January 1, 2013 at 3:11 pm cyborgsuzy

       Which to me is yet another symptom of the same disease that leads to people not understanding where their food comes from. Same with hollow-point bullets. People hear that and only think of what they’ve seen in the movies; in a handgun, it’s a cop-killer, but a .22 hollow point is the perfect tool for killing farm animals like sheep and pigs for humane slaughter.

       
       
     • on January 2, 2013 at 7:10 pm Bridget

       The “Russianess” of your country and ideology is quite well captured on this documentary serie

       
       
3. on January 1, 2013 at 8:00 am chervilmeadow

   Could someone just remind me, how many people in America a get shot on a daily basis.Nevertheless, I did find the deer next to a mighty mousetrap photo quite funny, sorry retrieverman.

   
   
   • on January 1, 2013 at 8:20 am Dave

     According to studies, the biggest correlation between causality and crime rate and gun culture is the perception. A country, like UK, where gun culture is seen as a negative, crime rate is high. In a country like Norway, where gun culture is seen as a leisure in target-shooting and hunting, firearms-related crimes is low. Whereas in countries, like Netherlands, where government is liessez faire toward gun-ownership, most people don’t feel the need to own a firearm since it’s not part of their lifestyle nor they have any negative view of it. Even in countries with strict regulations on gun-ownership, like Germany, gun-ownership is high and crime-rate is low due to positive view of firearms. On the other hand, where gun-ownership is correlated with power-worship, problems identical to Africa and Middle East arise. So, Peter Dawson, don’t make clear-cut arguments.

     Unfortunately, America is too big of a country to establish such correlation trends since each individual states are the same size of a European country.

     
     
     • on January 2, 2013 at 5:00 am megrim43

       A link to gun crime stats in Scotland. Some how an average of 5 gun homicides a year just doesn`t strike me as a hig crime rate….but that`s just me.

       http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/scotland

       Elizabeth

       
       
       • on January 2, 2013 at 7:21 pm Giraffe

         Elizabeth, not to my ears either.
         In Finland, most killings / murders are done with our own cultural instruments a knife. Every body has a knife, and it’s easy to bring with. So, there’s a true correlation to the availability.

         We have lots of guns, of course, all meant for hunting or hobby shooting in the shooting halls – but the blade seems stay number one.

         
         
   • on January 2, 2013 at 12:14 am EmilyS

     on average in the US, each year 11000 people are killed by people using a gun, and 19000 people kill themselves using a gun. Personally I dont believe there’s much relevance in comparing one country to another in this matter. Our culture in regard to guns is fundamentally different from every other. I sure would like us to find some way to reduce the number of these deaths.

     
     
     • on January 2, 2013 at 11:55 am megrim43

       You are right, and comparisons to other countries are not relevant. Usually they are done with the conclusion “see, they have big problems, so we are not so bad!” (There`s a name for this fallacy, but I can`t remember it right now).

       Any problems with gun culture in the US are unique to that country, and it is for Americans to resolve them. They will not do this by comparing cultures.

       I am not American, and so will not be offering any suggestions on this matter.

       Elizabeth

       
       
4. on January 1, 2013 at 8:23 am chervilmeadow

   On the matter of gazelles being shot by arabs in jeeps, I recall that some decades ago the arabian oryx was virtually wiped out by such ‘sportsmen’ and this species was fortunately then rescued from complete extinction by being bred in America. You may recall also that the pere davids deer was rescued by being bred in England when it was wiped out in its native China by hungry soldiers during a civil war. I believe some pere davids have recently been returned to China. This swamp deer had even before that been reduced to a relict population in the emperor’s hunting park near Peking, as it was known then.

   
   
5. on January 1, 2013 at 8:34 am chervilmeadow

   Well, Dave, not many people get shot in Britain I assure you and we have about sixty million plus population in a relatively small area. So remind me how many people get shot each day in the USA. I believe bit is quite a lot and I’m not surprised.

   
   
   • on January 1, 2013 at 8:36 am retrieverman

     How many people get stabbed in the UK?

     
     
     • on January 2, 2013 at 7:15 am bearcoatpei

       200 homicides by stabbing in 2011/2012 with 58 firearm deaths in 2011. Compared to 9203 firearm homicides and 1836 stabbing homicides in the USA (2009 figures). One outnumbers the other by approximately 4:1, but the opposite way round in each country.

       But when you consider that knives are legal and readily available in every kitchen in the land, there’s no point comparing it to gun homicides. It would be like asking how many people are strangled to death.

       
       
   • on January 1, 2013 at 8:40 am Dave

     That’s why when we compare firearms ownership, we have to compare to other nations of the world and analyze their culture and their perception.

     The only real common denominator between all these countries is that where crime rate and murder rate are high, the quality of mental healthcare is very poor. It is common knowledge that UK and United States consistently rank low in quality of healthcare in western world; and both have very high crime rate and firearms fatality when compared to other westernized countries.

     
     
     • on January 2, 2013 at 6:28 am megrim43

       I never buy “common knowledge”, often the last refuge of the uninformed. Stats, please.

       Elizabeth

       
       
6. on January 1, 2013 at 12:40 pm chervilmeadow

   550 people get killed each year in Britain from every type of murder it seems. That surprised me.

   
   
   • on January 1, 2013 at 1:29 pm bearcoatpei

     I’m surprised too and I live in England! I’m presuming that 550 is just England and Wales (Scotland and Northern Ireland are counted seperately). Apparently, by per 100,000 head of population, the England and Wales gun homicide rate is 0.07 to the USA’s 2.97. However, the gun ownership per 100 people stats are 6.2 compared to 88.8. What I’d be very interested in is what percentage of crimes are committed by illegal firearms as opposed to legally held ones. I’d suspect that the majority of England/Wales gun homicides are by illegal firearms. Not sure how that would stack up to the USA, or how much use the statistics are as people who own one gun tend to own more than one as I doubt that almost 90% of Americans own a gun. I’m very much with Dave over the subject. It’s not just a simple bald fact with a single cause.

     Got the info from this link btw – http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list#data

     
     

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