Posts Tagged ‘spanish water dog’


Check out this breeder’s website. (Not the same breeder as the puppies above).

The history is pretty good, although it is more likely that the more plausible theory is that these dogs originated from Central Asian (Turkish, Turkic, or Magyar) ancestors.

These dogs are both water dogs and herders, which is why I think they are the missing link between the water dogs and puli. The puli-type is most likely the ancestor of all of these dogs.

It is possible that these dogs wound up in the hands of the North Africans. These dogs were probably introduced by through trade. Remember, most of North Africa was Christian and connected to European civilization. It makes sense that some of these dogs would have wound up in Iberia, as they spread out of Asia into the Mediterranean.

I do doubt these dogs have an origin in North Africa after that part of the world became part of the Islamic world. No active herding breed exists in Muslim countries, although one can find livestock guardians in those cultures. I doubt that these dogs were introduced to Iberia by the Moors. Herding dogs are simply not part of Islamic civilization.

I also doubt that this breed is the “most ancient” of water dogs. In reality, that dog is long extinct. In Europe, it has radiated out into so many different breeds, including the water spaniels and retrievers of Britain, the St. John’s water dog of Newfoundland, the truffle-hunting Lagottos Romagnolos  of Italy, and the ubiquitous poodle of Germany, France, and Russia.

The fact that Spanish water dogs are herders should tell you a lot about the origins of these dogs and their relations. The old name “Perro Turco” for this  breed suggests two origins. Either these dogs came from Central Asia through Turkey, or they are the descendants of the Magyar’s puli-type dogs.  The latter sounds possible because many Western Europeans referred to the Magyar people (who we call Hungarians) as Turks. (The name of the man who discovered grapes in Vinland was named Tyrkir. He is sometimes listed as a German slave, but he is also often suggested to be  Hungarian. After all, the Norse were probably also calling Magyars Turks.)

See also The History of Water Dogs post.

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Last St. John's water dogs

There are two often postulated theories about the origin of the St. John’s water dog, and I just don’t think it’s probable.

1. Richard Wolters believed they were derived from the black St. Hubert hound. He claims that the St. Hubert hounds were used to retrieve from a from Turberville that says the St. Hubert hounds were commonly “blacke” and used for finding “farre straggled” game. I’m surprised Wolters latched onto that theory, because he apparently didn’t know that St. Hubert’s hound is what was called a “lymer.” Lymers were used to track wounded game, which is actually one theory about how the bloodhound got its name. It actually trailed blood spoor.  Wolters thought that this was retrieving. It’s not.

2. Another theory goes that these dogs are derived from the French matin dog. A matin is an extinct dog that had features of the greyhound and mastiff– something like a Great Dane. It also was probably derived from the alaunt veantre. It is not and never has been a water dog. As far as I know it didn’t retrieve. Not a very good candidate. When I first read about this theory, I had just read a description of the French matin.  I don’t remember who came up with this theory, but the water dogs are no more likely to have been derived from this dog than they are from pekes or Afghan hounds.

The best and most logical theory is that these dogs are very closely related to the poodle type. Yes, even the big Newfoundland dogs most likely originally derived from something like a poodle. The most likely candidates are the Portuguese water dogs, Spanish water dogs, and the English rough water dog. These may have been interbred with the collie-types, setter and pointer types, water spaniels, and the Cao de Castro Laboreiro or something very similar to it. It is also possible that the large Arctic spitz from Labrador called the Labrador husky played a role. And it is very likely that some form of mastiff, probably the English mastiff, played a role in developing the larger strain of Newfoundland that was used mostly for hauling loads.

I am skeptical that the Great Pyrenees or its closer relatives played much of role, simply because the dogs lived deep in the mountains, far away from the coastal Basques who were visiting Newfoundland. And while a smaller guard dog, like a Cao de Castro Laboreiro, might be of some utility, a big one would be too costly in terms of the amount of food it would need to survive. Bringing a livestock guardian dog of that size across the Atlantic just to use as a watch dog simply wouldn’t have been economical, and these dogs were more valuable in the Pyrenees as flock guardians.

The best theory as to why these dogs lost their poodle type coat can be found here. And evidence of poodle-type water dogs in Newfoundland in the early days can be found here.

Farley Mowat traced his St. John’s water dog’s ancestry to the poodle-type dogs. In fact, he had reason to believe that they were related to the Portuguese water dog, which is often black with white markings– often exactly the same sort of white markings than were found on the St. John’s water dogs. It also occasionally has puppies that have coats a bit like a flat-coated retriever, which then would be very easily developed into a smooth-coated water dog. The Portuguese water dog’s temperament is very similar to that of a retriever. They are very friendly and eager to please. And many have very strong retrieving instincts.

Now, Mowat also traced the poodle-type dog’s origins all the way back to Russia. Now, here I disagree but only slightly. I think Central Asia is where they actually came from. The puli is a relative of this type and is a good example of what these dogs originally were. They are were herding dogs.  I can forgive Mowat, though, for at this time, most of Central Asia was under the control of Soviet Union.

I don’t know where people get these theories. I think it may be disconcerting for poodle-haters to accept that these all of their hunting dogs related to dogs of this type. They have be derived from hounds or mastiffs. In the case of these St. John’s water dogs and the Newfoundland, it is very common for people to hold onto the tired old story that Leif Ericsson brought them over. How these dogs managed to survive on their own for the nearly 500 years before the modern period of European colonization is a good question. They would have had to have survived on their own, because the Beothuks didn’t keep dogs.

Whatever, the reason, the fact that Portuguese water dogs are marked so similarly to the St. John’s water dog and posses the playfulness, retrieving instincts, and strong swimming ability associated with these ancestors of the retrievers means that we should look at them more closely. The Portuguese used the Grand Banks extensively until the end of the sixteenth century. The Portuguese, Spanish and French basques, and the English used Newfoundland as a base for fishing, and it is very likely that the water dogs from Portugal became common on the island, even after their original owners gave up on the fishery. Thus, the Portuguese water dog really should be carefully considered as a forebear of the St. John’s water dog, the Newfoundland, and the retrievers.

That Portuguese water dogs don’t often appear in duck blinds is immaterial.

Their conformation, temperament, and working instincts very strongly suggest that they are most likely the main ancestor of the St. John’s water dog, although I won’t rule out the Spanish water dog (which is actually used more often as a herding dog), the English rough water dog, or the barbet.

But it is clear to me that the St. John’s water dogs, the big Newfoundland, and the retrievers belong in this family. That they lack the non-shedding coats and the beards is immaterial. There aren’t that many genes that control the type of coat that a dog has, and it wouldn’t take very long for a poodle-type water dog to develop a smooth coat through selective breeding, natural selection, or both.

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This is why I say that the old type water dogs, poodles, barbet, and the Iberian water dogs are related to herding breeds. That’s why in Germany, there were water poodles and sheep-poodles. I think these dogs are related to the curly-haired and corded herding breeds of Central and Eastern Europe, the most famous of which is the Puli.

Pulik have been taught to retrieve shot game from the water, so it makes some sense that the water dogs can also herd.

I have herd of one distant descendant of the ancient European water dogs, a golden retriever, learning to herd sheep, although not very well!

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Compare some of the Spanish Water dogs with the picture of Stubbs’s “A Water Spaniel” in the earlier entry.

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