Really good blog post here.
Most important part:
One of my favorite things about Turid’s presentation was that she provided me with the opportunity to see dog training as it is viewed in another culture, that of Turid’s native Scandinavia. In the course of her presentation, Turid said something to the effect of, “you Americans are control freaks with your dogs! You want to control when they look at something in the environment, for how long, when they look at you, when and if they are allowed to sniff something interesting in the environment, how quickly or slowly they walk, etc.”
I see what Turid is saying. As a culture, we Americans tend to be pushy, demanding, type A, control freaks. We want what we want, when we want it, and how we want it. The concept of, “we must be leaders to our dogs at all times,” really does fit nicely in with our fast-paced, control freak culture.
I am hesitant to post this, imagining what will probably be a passionate backlash from those who may disagree with me, but I will say that now I’ve had many months to reflect on Turid’s presentation, I have come to decide that perhaps, just maybe, we should try to let our dogs take the lead more often.
I’ll be the first to admit that I have what might be called hippie ideas about how humans relate to dogs.
Unlike the author of that blog post, I am not so hesitant to post anything like this, simply because I know that we Americans like micromanaging our dogs.
We take it as an affront to our egos if the dog doesn’t do what we say every time.
When someone is in that mindset, it is hard to have any kind of rational discourse. Trust me. You’ve read my blog posts that counter Cesar Millan’s poppycock. You know what even considering this does to certain people.
I actually think a lot of this comes from a certain level of personal insecurity. I can’t control everything in my life, but I can make my dog “mind me.”
And I think some of it comes from the bizarre romance about what working dogs are. If the founders of a certain type of dog training did it this way, then we must do it now, even if there are other ways of doing it.
“We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them,” Einstein once said.
And I think so much of that applies to dogs.
Dogs are not living up to their potential as a species. I could only imagine what the relationship between our two species would be like if we’d just let go a little.
We’re the species with the control problems.
It’s not them.
It’s us.
Yes, train them. Teach them rules and social mores.
But we have to let go at some point. Otherwise, the dog becomes an extension of egos and ceases being its own entity.
And you don’t have a relationship.
You have master and slave.
Dogs as slaves. I hear this from all kind of radical animal rights groups. This is an idea from people, mostly vegans, who think all domestic animals are slaves. Dogs have been an part of human society at least 50,000 years, as shown in cave paintings. There is evidence this relationship goes back even further. An interesting theory that is circulating because it is apparent Humans and Dogs developed together it is thought dogs influenced man kind as much as we influenced dogs. I challenge anyone to think my trio of Irish Terriers are slaves. I do not anthropomorphize my dogs I enjoy their company for what they are, they are my friends and family, we are a pack.
I certainly don’t mean it from an animal rights perspective.
I’m just saying we need to adjust things if we want to have a real relationship with the animals.
My family wonders why I dont train my dog in certain behaviors. The best example is “sit.” I have no need for that one. Unfortunatly “sit” seems to be an indicator to some people of a well trained dog, my sister always comes over and tells him to sit, and I say why the hell does he need to do that? She says if he cant sit he’s unruly.
The most important commands for my dog to know are “no” which means stop; I find this command to be fairly all encompassing. For instance, if he is about to run up to a leashed dog that looks unfriendly, if he has jumped on someone, or if I want him off the furniture. “Stay” is another important one, I dont care if he sits or lays (just please dont move untill I’ve dried off your feet). The last is “come, ” I would say this one has saved him from all sorts of injury and mischiff (porcupines) beyond that I find many commands are baisically redundant, “heel” is another good one, but as long as your dog knows not to pull on the leash you dont really need it; unless you never leash your dog then your dog should know it. “In and out” are two others that he knows just from picking up on vocabulary; they turned out to be pretty handy; bed, and walk are other examples of things most dogs just pick up. I wonder how much else he knows? They are just brilliant in picking up on everything, I saw a cocker spaniel once trained in sign language, and verbal cues (and claps), the owners son was deaf.
Some people over train their dogs; like retrieverman mentioned, a simple “heel” can be taken a long way. Is it really neccessary for the dog to stand at attention while on a walk? I guess in some situations it might be, but I really dont care if your dog barks or snaps at mine while they are socializing, and I really dont care if things break out in a scuffle. Let them be dogs.
My dogs do not do tricks. They retrieve because they like to do it. They also dig lots of holes in my yard, sometimes in not the most convenient places as far as the trees and shrubs are concerned. You have to let them be dogs, they are not hairy children and if they were then most of the things people do to them and expect of them would land the “parents” in jail.
I knew it! You *are* are a dirty hippy.
My dogs live out in holes in the yard. Where dogs belong.
More of a hippie wannabe.
Example with heeling: Does it matter that my dogs can heel in a pivot forwards and backwards (the old one on the left, the young one on both sides)? Does it matter that they can adjust their heel position precisely based on how I position a knee, or tap the inside of my thigh? That they can heel backwards? That they auto-stop from heel?
The answer is “yes.” I have my reasons, which I can elaborate on if anyone’s curious.
Does that mean my dogs are somehow slaves? Overtrained? Robotic? Deprived of freedoms? Not allowed to be dogs?
Nonsense.
Does that mean that I don’t follow my working dog’s lead when his senses are more acute or relevant than mine?
Absolutely not.
Does that mean someone else wants or needs or cares for this in a dog?
Of course not.
Different dogs, different people, different purposes, living and working together as teams. I think it’s interesting to think about the different philosophies–but other than being interesting, I’m not sure they’re relevant in the same way from one owner and dog to another.
I will admit, I like letting my dogs do their own thing when possible. I like seeing their personalities and thought processes without me micromanaging them.
The only commands I really care about are ‘Come’, ‘No’ and ‘Stay’. Everything else is just trained for fun.
I have no problem with the idea that some people are too compulsive about controlling dogs and that if you’re not doing competition obedience, it doesn’t matter a fig where your dog heels.
I DO think that a generic “no” is not necessarily a fair command, because it may encompass many different behaviors the dog may be doing at any one time. How is the dog to know WHICH behavior it’s supposed to “stop” doing?
After a few repetitions of the command in various situations the dog learns for himself which behavior is wrong. For us “no” means stop. He gets up on the bed multiple times and is told no each time he learns that I wont tolerate it, same with jumping or whatever, I dont need to spell it out for him. We’ve never run into a situation were I couldn’t just say “no.”
Well, the different breeder/hunters I got most of my FCR dogs from prefer an audible instead of a spoken command for getting their retriever to heel, or to come, or to redirect when on a blind retrieve. Makes more sense I guess. I’ve kept it to that rule of thumb which for them(the dogs) seems more real world I suppose. When in a real world situation, not a mock hunt, it seems more often than not, audibles are preferred. Like an “EHH EHH” or perhaps a bird call in a certain pattern. Although I guess once the bird is shot it really doesn’t matter. Unless of course your dog is just gun shy and doesn’t fit in with a real world hunting situation but excels at a mock trial. Either way, it should still be productive fun for the dog and rewarding either way for the owner.
I really, really don’t understand your audible versus spoken versus bird call or whatever. If it’s spoken or a “call” it is by definition audible.
If you mean spoken rather than silent, why a hunter would rather make more noise instead of less is also a mystery to me, as when I’ve been in hunting situations the less talk the better, but I do use verbal cues as well as body language as needed, if that’s what you’re driving at. But I’m sure there are a million ways to communicate with a dog while hunting, so it makes no difference to me how anyone else does it.
I’m sure you weren’t implying this, but in case there’s any confusion, my dogs are NOT gunshy. They are regularly shot over. And for those who may not know, a gunshy hunt test dog is pretty worthless anyway.
My point was that obedience for working dogs is–or at least should be–functional.
An audible is not noise. Its an audible used for communicating. There are people who rely on communication with hunting with dogs, for example… Basenjis who’s owner’s even put bells on the dogs. Just to know where their silent partners are. There are hunters who use a language of their own of audibles, not spoken language words to tell their dogs what to do and where to redirect. I don’t knock what you do, its just different from what I know.
There are herding dogs who are directed from far off in the distance with dog whistles and there are hunting dogs that are directed in the same manner. Its just different and depending on what perspective you see it from, perhaps more efficient. And it kind of suggests there is a way to build not only a close relationship with your dogs, but also a way to allow your dogs to communicate with you.
If I am suggesting anything…. its that a dog with the ability to free roam its territory and understand where its people are and can allow its people to know where they are. May actually be a much smarter and intellectually superior dog to one that has been raised with a strict regimen of control.
Audible: adjective, perceptible to the hearing; loud enough to be heard.
I know you know what you’re saying, and I know I have no idea what you’re saying, so maybe we should just leave it at that.
“There are herding dogs who are directed from far off in the distance with dog whistles and there are hunting dogs that are directed in the same manner. Its just different and depending on what perspective you see it from, perhaps more efficient. And it kind of suggests there is a way to build not only a close relationship with your dogs, but also a way to allow your dogs to communicate with you. ”
You don’t say…….. Well, I’ll be damned. Directing a dog with a whistle? Never heard of such a thing. Developing a relationship through communication? Remarkable. Them’s some special dogs. ;)
“If I am suggesting anything…. its that a dog with the ability to free roam its territory and understand where its people are and can allow its people to know where they are. May actually be a much smarter and intellectually superior dog to one that has been raised with a strict regimen of control.”
Why is being able to monitor its environment and the location of its handler and having learned how to communicate with its handler through obedience mutually exclusive?
(That question is rhetorical.)
Audible means exactly what you said. So glad you actually have the definition. Now I know you know what I said and have a good idea of what it means. Thank goodness. ;-)
Being heard doesn’t means it has to be distracting to the intended game or tip off that game about your presence by talking.
I don’t think having to tell your dog in English or whatever language you use is in any way discrete and in every way alerting the intended target. “Here I Am!” Maybe there’s more to it than obedience via the traditional theories, maybe a combination of many different approaches is better. I’m willing to say a dog with access to woods and trails and farmland with lots of smells and tastes and all its creatures is smarter than a dog with access to a back yard, a dog park and a leash.
Many an elitist will be quick to criticize anything that is beyond their personal experience being that they fall in line behind the status quo.
(That is based on stereotypes)
Anal retentive is a definition that applies to some of those elitists. ;-)
(that is a fact) (Perhaps depending on who you are, even rhetorical) ;-)
Just a minor comment–not disagreeing in the least, EmilyS–just sharing for anyone curious.
My dogs happen to do competition retrieving, rather than competition obedience, and “heel” is a crucial communication too. When three or four birds go down one right after the other, the right heel position can help the dog remember the third or fourth bird down, which might have been ten minutes earlier. The right heel position on a blind (bird the dog hasn’t seen fall) can help the dog get the right “picture” and thus go to the area more efficiently.
Obedience is not a “do this or else” thing with advanced retrieving–it’s a means of communication. Helps me help the dog find the bird–which is what the DOG wants more than anything. (Otherwise, we wouldn’t be doing it. Wouldn’t be fun for anyone.)
Some dogs(like a lot of Retrievers–I’ve seen German Shepherds and Rottweilers and Dobermans that like this too) learn to LOVE so-called robotic training and treatment–revelling in learning and performing to perfection, the most nit-picking things. Other dogs, like most of the Nordic breeds, Sighthounds, Trailhounds, and primitive breeds like Basenjis(certainly wolf-hybrids) usually HATE this kind of–to them–pointless repetitive command sort-of training. I’ve had good success with primitive and “independent” breeds doing the basics by keeping training sessions very brief(I’m talking only 5 minutes sometimes!), always rewarding them, and not doing it too often!! Once again, the negative attitudes, lumping ALL dogs in one tiny, negative category, based on the worst examples out there(which DO exist–however, zillions more relationships are anything but), and saying all dogs are “slaves”, simply shows ENORMOUS ignorance on the part of the nay-sayers!!!!
…and actually, the REVERSE is true in my case, at least. I am the slave–to my dogs! And loving it!!!!
I hardly think that my dogs are misbehaving and challenging me when they break off from a trail and bolt after some wild creature in the forest. I just think they are being dogs and they know where home is. And when they are done they’ll listen for my whistle and know where I am. Most times by the time I circle back to the back of my property line I can see they are waiting for me by the entrance to their pond. All looking at me like “what took you so long?”. Or in cooler weather they all gather by the farm and wait for the games to begin.
The only time I worry a bit is when the Bitches bolt away to chase game when they are coming into season, so for those times the girls are often left in their enclosed Kennel with the pond available until the rest get back to join them. Most times we’re all out and about. Or depending on who’s the leader for the day, my spouse or myself…. we’ll have maybe half the pack on two shifts.
Either way, the dogs love it, and they never really seem as winded as when they walk around on leash in the development. No body is a slave really. More like we had to learn the personalities of each dog. Sort of like our children are each different, yet all similar in other ways.
Dogs seem to enjoy their freedom within nature as much as we do, even more so I think. And perhaps there is an advantage with that lifestyle since it encourages the dog to actually use that mass between its ears and be a little more freethinking and problem solving than the average pooch.
They’re going to run you out of WV any day now…
Hear, hear, Retrieverman. Well said!
I know I’m a control freak in some aspects of life with my dogs, but given our lifestyle and our culture, I need to be. I try not to get carried away.
As far as commands and parlor tricks, we’ve got that. I enjoy teaching my dogs, they seem to enjoy learning. My pit bull girl and I play in rally and traditional obedience, and for all intents and purposes, the wagging tail and the big bully grin indicate that she enjoys herself. She’s not a robot. She’ll never be a high scoring wonderdog, in part because she’ll play my games but always on her own terms (three cheers for terrier bitches), and because I’m just not that anal of a trainer.
I know there are people out there whose dogs aren’t allowed to breathe without permission. I can’t fathom that, and I don’t want that for my dogs. They’re dogs. They’re my companions. We do stuff together for fun. That means fun for *all* of us, not just me.