These dogs will really be of great use to man.
They surely can catch any criminal who tries to get away.
Of course, the criminal must be trying to get away by the slowest means possible. Perhaps if the criminal decided to crawl away, the dog might stand a chance of catching him.
I don’t know how this stance and gait got to be beautiful.
It’s not.
It’s actually quite ugly and disheartening.
When I think of this breed, I think of Rin Tin Tin. Tough, intelligent, always out to serve law and justice. Not afraid to draw a hard line. The Gary Cooper of dogs.
Of course, I must admit that as breed, I’ve never much liked them. It’s nothing personal. Because they also remind me of something else– movies about the Holocaust. I shouldn’t blame the dogs. I should blame the people who used them to guard to guard the death camps. I know it’s guilt by association.
I’m sorry if that’s the image that I get when I think of them.
But after watching these dogs with ataxic gaits try to walk, something else comes to mind: people are morons.
I can’t believe that anyone would think that breeding for such a defect would be beautiful or even functional.
But then I’m outside the fancy that exists for the German shepherd dog.
Perhaps they are seeing something I am not.
Maybe.
I hope they have some justification for breeding for this gait and stance. Something beyond looks.
It is one of the curses of being visual species. Things that look novel are attractive to us.
However, when we start breeding dogs for appearance alone, this is the tendency that winds up wreaking havoc.
If we are going to breed better dogs, we’ve got to get some control over this tendency. Otherwise, the dogs have no future. They will be prisoners to our capricious visual whims.
And that is a scary prospect.
and yet within the GSD you still have dogs like these:
http://members.cox.net/gsdvominsel/index.htm
1999 & 2000 GSDCA Herding Victrix
WTCH, HTCh, HCh Fluorescence Vom Insel OFA H/E
CGC, TC, CD, BH, HRDIII-s/g, HX, HTDIII-s/g, RTDs, PATDs, HXAs, HRDI-c, ATDc/d, HXBs, HTDII-d, HXCs
GS-46913G25F-T, GS-EL-6215-T, DOB: 08/25/94
and
WTCh, HCh, HTCh Klaatu Berrada Nicto HGH, OFA H/E
HX, HXAsdc, HXCs, HXBd, HIBs, RTDs/c, PATDs/c, HTDIII-s/d/c/g, HRDIII-s/c/g, HTADIII-s/g, Brevet
TC, CGC, BH, AD, CD, Thirteen Club
GS-54280F26F-T, GS-EL-9231-T
AKC#DL655028/01, USA#5604
September 18, 1996 – May 11, 2010
It’s not impossible to have excellent GSDS — I see them from time to time in herding trials. It’s a matter of people starting to select the kind of dogs still used by herdsmen and Seeing eye for “conformation” competition. The conformation exaggerations come from the “more is better/winner takes all” competition and because the conformation “theory” never is tested against “does this really work”. You’d be amazed how many GSD breeders will assert the sickle hocks are “necessary” because the GSD needs reach/drive for herding. None of the actual HERDING dogs look like the extreme show dogs, but the two dogs above, probably the best GSD herding dogs I’ve ever seen, weren’t ever invited by AKC to demonstrate “form follows function” in their judge education seminars. vr, Peggy Richter
Klaatu Berrada Nicto – this dog has the coolest name ever.
Your statement about “reach/drive” made me think of a column I read long ago by a Greyhound breeder. She noted a push in the conformation world for most breeds, even Greyhounds, to show “Tremendous Reach and Drive” (also know as TRAD). IOW, a big, flashy, side gait.
She wrote that in order for a Greyhound to have TRAD, he had to have extra flexibility in its joints and believed that made for a poor coursing dog. In order to use the power of their muscles, the body has to have some tension in its joints – like a coiled spring. Muscles have trouble pushing against a overly flexible frame. She noticed that dogs with TRAD tended to be slow and not very nimble. The dogs that excelled in coursing, OTOH, tended to trot efficiently but with moderate stride length.
Anyway, this made me think about GSDs and TRAD (in GSD speak: the flying trot). I’ve noticed that the show-type GSDs tend to really suck at galloping. I know they are a trotting breed but still. The collie is considered a trotting breed but they can still gallop without flopping their limbs. As well I think this is why the show type, ones are so bad at jumping. With their loose jointed framework, they can’t coil up enough to spring energetically up and instead rely on shear momentum to get them over.
Anyway, just my 2 cents. I’ve met some terrific GSDs but I hate hate hate the whole bizarre angulation & TRAD thing.
There is a similar article involving Afghan hounds. Basically the author argues that breeding for great reach in the front will produce weak rears, since you cannot breed for loose ligaments and tight ligaments in the same dog at the same time.
There is a growing amount of dysplasia in certain sighthounds and I believe it is directly related to breeding for a wide sidegait and overangulated rear. These are running dogs; for examples of efficient and effective movement, we should be looking to wild canids that perform the same function. No wild canid carries it’s hind legs way out behind it. The hind legs form a column under the body when the animal is standing naturally. Studying the original imports and COO dogs also shows us dogs that carry the hind legs well under the body, not one that has it’s hind feet over in the next county.
The video appears to have been taken in the UK. The Kennel Club has advised the GSDC there, that Challenge Certificates will be withheld unless/until the GSD people “get their act together” and concentrate on soundness. Without CCs of course, no championships are possible. It is possible that the GSDC will not abide by that ruling, and will detach themselves from The Kennel Club and become independent. In which case the exaggerations will not cease.
Unfortunately, the situation in the US is no better.
Yeah, but the UK GSD Show Club isn’t the only one in the country, is it? Aren’t there working-line breeders in the country that could step up as the new ‘official’ club in their place?
Excellent point.
Don’t forget the protection bred German shepherds. Police K9 and schutzhund dogs typically lack the strange rear that the show dogs have.
my mentor when i began dog-training was a GSD-breeder in Bucks County, PA – Mrs Frank Arnold; she had *gorgeous* dogs, and would be appalled to see these poor creatures drooping around the ring, trailing their tails like wedding-trains and dragging their rear toes.
watching them walk-away from behind is shocking – their hocks trace figure-8s on every stride, and the upper-foot is dragged forward along the floor – flour on the tops of their toes would stripe a dark carpet.
that or nail-polish on the toes is a vet-test for rear-end neurological or neuromuscular problems.
i was all of 10-YO and in 4-H when i met her magnificent dogs; she had the first red-and-blacks i had ever seen, and her foundation stock she had flown to Germany to choose – wonderful temps, excellent structure, great dogs.
i did not fall out of love with GSDs for 20-years – and then it was the non-stop shedding that finally discouraged me; most double-coat breeds are seasonal, GSDs are daily…
every 12-weeks U pick up enuf-hair to upholster a bald GSD-pup, stem to stern. :: roll-eyes :: it wears on U.
i think what has been done to GSDs as a breed in the show-ring is criminal.
the Euro-lines in Schutz, ring-sport, and Border-Patrol are no better; EXCELLENT structure, wicked temperament;
they are incessantly antsy, like BSD Malinois, and bite with little to no provocation, just out of excitement.
it should be possible to get a GSD who is healthy, correctly structured for long-term mobility, AND with an approachable, intelligent, thoughtful temp –
not a crackerjack who pops-off unexpectedly, on a whim.
very sad, all around – IMO.
— terry
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
Sad that the problems aren’t isolated to just GSDs.
the Euro-lines in Schutz, ring-sport, and Border-Patrol are no better; EXCELLENT structure, wicked temperament;
they are incessantly antsy, like BSD Malinois, and bite with little to no provocation, just out of excitement.
it should be possible to get a GSD who is healthy, correctly structured for long-term mobility, AND with an approachable, intelligent, thoughtful temp –
not a crackerjack who pops-off unexpectedly, on a whim.
That’s a *huge* generalization about the European working lines. I’ve met 100s of them and although there is an end of Bell curve that is antsy, excitable, and sharp (bitey), it’s not the norm for the working dogs.
And it is possible to have healthy, well-structured GSDs who are approachable, healthy, intelligent, easy to train and drivey.
And, really, I don’t think they’re that hard to find. But then, maybe I just know a lot of the “right” people and what to look for. It can be hard to get an outside perspective from within.
Christine
http://www.blackthornkennel.com
speaking of RinTinTin:
http://www.rintintin.com/pedigree.htm
kind of interesting photos…
Thanks, EmilyS for the linK; GSDs as they’re supposed to be!
Show breeding has completely ruined so many working breeds. :(
One thing I’m always struck by when thinking about GSDs is how their angulation only works* in its perfect state. IMHO, the more extreme the angulation require legs sections (femur, shoulder, humerus, etc) and back of certain exacting lengths. If anything is off – say the humerus is a bit short – the balance is thrown off affecting gait and long term soundness. The more extreme the angulation, the more precise the bone proportion must be. The trouble is that breeding for that dog that has extreme angulation and the correct proportions to pull it off means there will be lots of dogs produced that will be a little off here and there.
*by “works” I mean the dog is fairly sound and free moving. I don’t want to imply I think the whole GSD “flying trot” fetish is sane.
The pug is #2 in OFA stats for hip dysplasia with a whopping 63% dysplasic. The GSD is #40 with only 19%. There are a surprising number of Ch Pugs with hip dysplasia. Yet when the average joe thinks about dog breeds with serious trouble with hip dysplasia they think of the GSD instead of the pug.
Besides the fact that Pugs are toy dogs and are not often asked to do anything athletic, the Pug’s conformation helps them cope much better with bad hips than a GSD. Pug hind quarters tend to have very modest angulation to almost post legged conformation which reduces the strain on the hip. The Pug’s short back makes it easy to keep a stable center of balance and to shift weight if needed. A severely dysplasic Pug is often still a happy active dog with little obvious disability except for occasional hitch in it’s gait.
OTOH, a show-type GSD even with a modest case of dysplasia has a much tougher job. The extreme leg angulation provides little support and added strain to his hips. With his long back, it’s extremely difficult for him to shift his center of balance to ease up on a ouchy leg. A dysplastic GSD is often a dog that makes people wince as it gimps around.
A last thought is about what all this angulation means in terms of athleticism. I’ve seen a few overly angulated GSDs in agility and, boy, it’s a struggle for them. Despite the impression of power, they jumped rather weak, flat and had trouble clearing the bars. They truly sucked at twisty courses as they could only do big, wide, loopy turns. It’s true that bigger & longer dogs can’t turn as tight as littler dogs but breeds of comparable height & back length to GSDs (Belgians, Smooth Collies) were much more nimble side to side.
you see very very few GSDs in agility, especially compared to the Belgians (Tervs and Mals especially).
The biggest problem with extreme angulation is that there is not sufficient musculature to both support that configuration and to allow for a full range of motion. Mother Nature’s (partial) solution is to try to make the joints more rigid, hence the sickle hocks that don’t straighten on extension. That still doesn’t help with the lateral instability that is so painfully evident.
Constance O. Miller’s book “Gazehounds: the Search for Truth” (Hoflin Publishing) is a true classic, and rebuts in great detail the myth of “TRAD” in sighthounds. There is also very much that applies to all breeds.
Manor of Mixed Blessings has a lovely German Shepherd, Zille: http://manorofmixedblessings.com/tag/zille/. She doesn’t have the sloped back. She is out of Blackthorn Kennel.
Look, it’s a question of semantics.
There are at least five, six “breeds” all called the German shepherd dog. Only perhaps two of those can justly take the name. We should perhaps stop lamenting “what has happened to the German shepherd” and start excoriating idiots for calling something a German shepherd that simply does not meet the definition of the term. (And then beat them bloody for deliberately creating crippled dogs.)
The dogs in the video — the hunchbacks — are “International type” or “high-line” show dogs, of the kind developed in Germany for pageants under the Martin brothers’ control of the SV.
They cannot walk. In Germany they “earn” their required schutzhund titles at “midnight trials” where none see them perform, under “friendly” judges.
Not a German shepherd. Next.
In the UK (and Australia, NZ), after the loosening of that country’s quarantine, they pretty much replaced long, low, deep-chested type of show dog that was edging towards corgi-ism. The police did not seek them as partners.
Not a German shepherd. Next.
In the US show-ring, the backs are straighter, the angulation even more freakish, the build is like a bird’s, the head is like a borzoi’s, the gait is occasion for tears and there isn’t even a pretense of a working title. These are the GSDs that jump out of their skins at a passing sparrow. They make me sad for their sakes. (There are also German-style shows here for the imported banana-back high-line dogs.)
Not a German shepherd. Next.
In North America, where breeders don’t answer to a central authority the same way they do in Europe, there is a substantial gene pool of pet-bred GSDs, including white GSDs. They typically have less extreme structure. They are all over the board in terms of size (from normal to super-giant shambling beasts). Temperaments range from okay for a pet (including some very nice individuals) to very poor and shy-sharp.
Not a German shepherd. Next.
There’s a small pool of GSDs in Germany, and even smaller outposts elsewhere, bred for large-flock herding, and selected via the HGH title process.
This can be regarded as a sub-pool of the larger working GSD population, which are selected at competitive schutzhund trials and are the go-to population for working dog handlers who want a GSD.
These dogs are, IME, not as balanced as the GSDs of yore. Higher in prey drive, higher energy, more heavily-built, more reactive and less thoughtful. But bloody useful as working dogs. Not just police work, but SAR, detection, etc.
In the past there was more diversity within the working pool, with West German, East German, and Czech dogs showing distinct types and temperaments. Now they are somewhat more uniform.
When I am selecting a GSD puppy for work — for myself or another handler — I START with a pool of puppies that represents <1% of the "German shepherd" population in North America, and go from there. I am generally looking for a more balanced than average (for that gene pool) pup with a more moderate build that promises the true tireless GSD ground-covering trot that goes all day.
That initial <1% represents the real German shepherds.