• Home
  • About
  • Become my Patreon
  • Contact
  • Facebook

Canis lupus hominis

The Retriever, Dog, & Wildlife Blog

Feeds:
« Long-haired boxer x
Destroying the myth about trapping »

A working collie/retriever cross

December 7, 2010 by retrieverman

A flat-coated retriever/border collie x.

Source for image.

In Rawdon Lee’sA History and Description of Modern Dogs (Sporting Division) (1894), the following dog is described:

One of the best retrievers I ever owned was a sorry looking customer–a cross between a badly bred collie dog and an illegitimate retriever slut. His curly tail would have been a credit to an Eskimaux [dog]. But a dog does not carry a bird or a hare with his stern, nor does his intelligence lie therein. Although the dog “Dick” was not more than forty pounds in weight, and had a small head and jaw, he could carry two rabbits easily. This he did when out shooting with a friend, and a couple of rabbits had been stopped simultaneously by smart first barrels. Dick was so jealous that he persisted in bringing both to his master (p. 395).

***

Rawdon Lee’s text has lots of information on the history of the wavy-coated retriever. The author laments the desire of breeders to get rid of all the wave in the breed’s coat, arguing that the straight coat does not provide as much protection to the dog in “rough country.”  He also laments the setter head that seemed to be taken over in the breed, which most likely happened as Irish setter blood was added to turn the wavy-coat into the flat-coat.

The author also discusses the history of the breed, contending that the dog Paris was a Labrador (St. John’s water dog). He also suggests that Zelstone was of mostly St. John’s water dog extraction and had no setter blood. He talks of “pure Labradors” being registered and shown as wavy-coats. If these claims true, then this is very good evidence that the St. John’s water dog sometimes had a long coat.

Within the text, there is a discussion of  the history of the breed’s working conformation. The original flat or wavy-coated dogs were too big and too coarsely built to be of much use– some were nothing more than dogs of the large Newfoundland breed that had been registered as retrievers. Some people in the early days wanted a big, lumbering retriever that “could jump a gate with an 8 lb. hare in its mouth, and gallop with one at full speed.” It was discovered that smaller and more lightly built dogs were more functional in the field– somewhere in the 50 to 68 pound range. That is actually about the size of most working-type golden retrievers, although there are big dogs and smaller dogs within both show and field varieties.

This text should be read by all golden retriever people.  Coarsely0built retrievers are typically cute as puppies but are far from functional. The flat-coated retriever fanciers have the axiom: “Power without lumber; raciness without weediness.” It is not a bad axiom for all retriever conformation. I point this out only because it appears that too many goldens are going back to the old coarse dogs that all the old flat and wavy-coated retriever people tried so hard to breed out of their strains. (I bet  Harding Cox, who extolled the virtues of the yellow and red flat-coats that became eventually became goldens and who also talked of the importance of this lighter working conformation, is spinning in his grave.)

Lee’s style is to mix in some lore, and on retrievers, he weaves in some interesting anecdotes:

Lee talks about heroic retrievers saving people from drowing and retrievers that have proved excellent at assisting deer-stalkers in Scotland– a task the Guisachan retrievers were also given. He also describes a black and white retriever named Theodore Nero who bests a whole horde of well-bred show retrievers and Newfoundlands in  a water retrieving trial. He talks of a terrier/water spaniel cross that was an excellent retriever and of how his own Irish terrier is a very so tendermouthed that he can carry an egg in a cup with breaking either.

Rawdon Lee is a great source for breed history. It does not matter what dog it is. His late nineteenth century volumes on breed history are important sources for all anyone wanting a history of Kennel Club dogs. He might get a thing or two wrong, but they are still worth reading.

Posted in dog breeds, Retriever history | Tagged A History and Description of Modern Dogs, Rawdon Lee | 8 Comments

8 Responses

  1. on December 8, 2010 at 4:23 am landauer

    “a cross between a badly bred collie dog and an illegitimate retriever slut”

    Hahaha, sounds like a recipe for greatness to me. Or at least a really good story.


    • on December 8, 2010 at 12:07 pm M.R.S.

      At that time, “slut” was an accepted term for a female dog (as is “bitch” today), and not derogatory.


  2. on December 8, 2010 at 12:09 pm M.R.S.

    Last time I was in Scotland, I saw a dog that was a blend of Golden Retriever and working collie. Very handsome fellow, dark red-gold with white markings. He worked on a sheep farm.


  3. on February 7, 2011 at 10:37 am crissy

    Would love to have one of these dogs!I had one for tweve years,he died a year ago.best dog ever!!if anyone knows were i can get a puppy let me know please!


  4. on May 22, 2011 at 8:51 pm BishopsMom

    I have a retriever border collie cross and he looks JUST like the one in your photo for this post. He is just about the smartest, sweetest dog you’ll ever meet :-)


  5. on June 2, 2011 at 7:16 pm Jen

    My dog looks just like the one in your picture except my girl has a white chest, some white on her snout and the tip of her tail is white. She’s also pretty big, 65 pounds for a female (but she’s very lean). She is the biggest mush! Loves cuddling with everyone and is always excited to see any company, especially kids. She’s 3 years old and still has a STRONG puppy spirit but is VERY smart. She is trained very well and is a great joy to my life.


  6. on November 25, 2012 at 12:46 pm brett

    I have a Border collie- lab mix that looks identicle to your photo, while he is real timid he is the sweetest, smartest & most loyal dog I have ever had. He was a rescue dog and VERY shy with any strangers, not mean just timid. His name is Sidney (after sidney crosby) and would like to have 10 just like him.


  7. on November 25, 2012 at 12:53 pm brett1058

    My dog Sidney (after Sidney Crosby) looks Identicle to the picture. He was a rescue dog and we got him when he was about 7 months old, while he is VERY timid especially with strangers, he is not mean at all. hes the sweetest, smartest & loyal dog I have ever had. Would take 10 just like him



Comments are closed.

  • Nature Blog Network
  • Like on Facebook

    The Retriever, Dog, and Wildlife Blog

    Promote Your Page Too
  • Blog Stats

    • 5,502,743 hits
  • Retrieverman’s Twitter

    • I have no words… wp.me/phvWb-7wq 1 day ago
    • The lost days of dogs and children wp.me/phvWb-7wj 2 days ago
    • Hybrid origin of the pit bull revealed in new studies wp.me/phvWb-7wc 4 days ago
    • Churchill and Homer wp.me/phvWb-7w6 6 days ago
    • youtube.com/watch?v=VRs05I… O'Reilly talks to Jesus. 6 days ago
  • Community

  • Google rank

    Check Google Page Rank
  • Archives

    • April 2015
    • March 2015
    • February 2015
    • January 2015
    • December 2014
    • November 2014
    • October 2014
    • September 2014
    • August 2014
    • July 2014
    • June 2014
    • May 2014
    • April 2014
    • March 2014
    • February 2014
    • January 2014
    • December 2013
    • November 2013
    • October 2013
    • September 2013
    • August 2013
    • July 2013
    • June 2013
    • May 2013
    • April 2013
    • March 2013
    • February 2013
    • January 2013
    • December 2012
    • November 2012
    • October 2012
    • September 2012
    • August 2012
    • July 2012
    • June 2012
    • May 2012
    • April 2012
    • March 2012
    • February 2012
    • January 2012
    • December 2011
    • November 2011
    • October 2011
    • September 2011
    • August 2011
    • July 2011
    • June 2011
    • May 2011
    • April 2011
    • March 2011
    • February 2011
    • January 2011
    • December 2010
    • November 2010
    • October 2010
    • September 2010
    • August 2010
    • July 2010
    • June 2010
    • May 2010
    • April 2010
    • March 2010
    • February 2010
    • January 2010
    • December 2009
    • November 2009
    • October 2009
    • September 2009
    • August 2009
    • July 2009
    • June 2009
    • May 2009
    • April 2009
    • March 2009
    • February 2009
    • January 2009
    • December 2008
    • November 2008
    • October 2008
    • September 2008
    • August 2008
    • July 2008
  • Recent Comments

    BorderWars on I have no words…
    massugu on I have no words…
    massugu on I have no words…
    UrbanCollieChick on The lost days of dogs and…
    YRYDYCE on The lost days of dogs and…
  • Meta

    • WordPress.com
  • Pages

    • About
    • Become my Patreon
    • Contact
    • Facebook
  • e college finder

    Online Colleges
    Online Colleges
  • Email Me

    retrieverman1[at]yahoo.com
  • Art

    • Conservation Photojournalism
    • Demon Puppy
    • Historical Hound
    • LolaDot Photography
    • Lucinda Coldrey
  • Blogroll

    • 2dogcrazy
    • Academy for Dog Trainers (Jean Donaldson)
    • Action for Sighthound Adoption and Protection
    • Agile Gold
    • Allie Chronicles
    • Almost Heaven
    • Alpine Publications
    • American Barbet
    • Ann and I
    • Ask Dr. Yin
    • Azawakh Idi! Idi! Idi!
    • B-More Bulldogs
    • Birdchick
    • Blacksheep Cardigans
    • Border (Collie) Wars
    • Born-to-Track News & Views
    • Brad Anderson
    • Bronwen Dickey
    • Camera Trap Codger
    • Caninest
    • Cao Preto
    • Chathamhill Dogs
    • Code Name: Farm Collie
    • Cold Wet Nose
    • Confessions of a Canine Junkie
    • Conservation Photojournalism
    • Crappy Taxidermy
    • Demon Puppy
    • DesertWindhounds
    • Dinsdale Photoblog
    • Djinn34
    • Dobermann Daze
    • Dog Breeds of the World
    • Dog Bytes
    • Dog Politics (UK)
    • Dog Spelled Foward
    • Dogs and Wolves (Elaine Chaika)
    • Dogs Don't Look Both Ways
    • Dogs, dogs, and more dogs
    • Dogsnhorses
    • Dogstar Academy
    • DogTime Blogs
    • Durrell Wildlife Trust Blog
    • Ella Bay Forever
    • Fallowfen Gundog Blog
    • FirstDogCharlie
    • For the Pits
    • Frogdog Blog
    • FromZooMy
    • Full Cry
    • Gamebird Litter
    • Glencuan Pointers
    • Gold Dog History
    • Golden Obsessions
    • Golden Retriever Comunidad
    • Grey's Days
    • Guiding Golden
    • Gundogdoc’s Blog
    • Happy Doggie Blog
    • Hemmingford Dog Blog
    • Historical Hound
    • Hoof & Paw
    • HT Training
    • Ian Dunbar
    • James Marchington
    • Julie Zickefoose
    • K-9 Solutions Dog Training Blog
    • KC Dog Blog
    • Kennel Jacklaine's
    • Leah DVM
    • Lehrhund
    • Lumi and Laddie
    • Lurchers, Terriers, and Ferrets
    • Musings of a Biologist and Dog Lover
    • My three pups
    • Mystery of My Hairless Chihuahua
    • National Lacy Dog Association
    • No Kill blog
    • Novaforesta Barbets
    • Olduvai George
    • One Nation Under Dog
    • One Pibble's Wish
    • Online Dog Training
    • Out Walking the Dog
    • Pedigree Dogs Exposed Blog
    • Penin kulmilla
    • Pippa's Blog
    • Pitter Patter
    • Pointing Dog Blog
    • Prick Eared
    • Rainwolves Weblog
    • Raising Maple–A Murray River Curly Coated Retriever
    • Rat Hunters
    • Rat Hunters
    • Responsible Dog
    • Retriever History
    • Samuel's Blog
    • Save the Pit Bull, Save the World
    • Scott Shalaway
    • Sherlock and Noah
    • Sixteen Paws
    • Smart Dogs
    • Stephen Bodio’s Querencia
    • Steve Dale's Pet World
    • Sugar The Golden Retriever
    • Swamp Dogs
    • Tails of Gold
    • Tattoos and Terriers
    • Techichi.org
    • The Bark Blog
    • The Calmo Dog Blog
    • The Cooper Project
    • The Daily Coyote
    • The Life of Jalo
    • The Other End of the Leash
    • The Poodle (and Dog) Blog
    • The Public Domain Kennel Club
    • Totally Dogs
    • Turid Rugaas
    • Tyson the Pit Bull
    • Utah Neff
    • Welcome to Chelsea’s World
    • Working Cocker Spaniels
    • YesBiscuit!
  • Dog links

    • Apso Rescue- Colorado
    • Ariosa Spanish water dogs
    • Back to Basics to Improve the Breeding Selection Process by Robert Milner
    • Bi-Mar Pomeranians
    • Collie Family Tree
    • Dog +R/-P Resource Page
    • Dog Breeds of the World
    • Dog Phylogenetic Tree
    • Dog School Tv
    • Evolution of the German Shepherd in 30 Generations
    • Flat-coat Library
    • Golden Retriever Club of America's National Health Survey
    • Golden Retriever Rescue in Nebraska
    • Gundogz
    • Gyldenpels
    • HeatherWeb
    • Huggable Goldendoodles
    • Inbreeding as a way to select against genetic disorders?
    • Is the Closed Registry System Doomed?
    • Krassesrudel
    • Louter Creek Red Hunting Poodles
    • Mac Barwick's Bloodhound History
    • Martin's Goldens
    • Newfie World
    • Old Time Farm Shepherd
    • Robert Milner’s Retriever Training Site
    • Some Practical Solutions to Some Welfare Problems in Dog Breeding
    • Telescope: Farley Mowat–CBC Archives (Features St. John's water dogs)
    • The "Blue Collar" Retriever
    • The "Ideal" Golden Retriever: How Do You Find Such an Animal?
    • The Bark
    • The Chinese Crested Shrine
    • The Honey Wolf
    • The Truth about Fox Pens
    • Things to consider before getting a Field Trial Golden Retriever
    • Tuska Homma Catahoulas
    • UK Golden Retriever Health Survey
    • Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat
    • What's wrong with using 'dominance' to explain the behaviour of dogs?
    • Zomarick Golden retrievers
  • Must Reads

    • Border Wars Inbred Mistakes Posts
    • How to breed dogs with stronger immune systems?
    • MHC, DLA, WTF?
  • Other Links

    • The Heck Cattle of Devon
  • politics

    • Ed Schultz
    • Gerry Spence
    • Huffington Post
    • Kicking Ass
    • Of Principalities and Powers
    • Shannyn Moore
    • Thom Hartmann
    • West Virginia Blue
  • Poodle and Water Dog History

    • History of Newfoundland Dogs
    • History of the Buccleuch Labrador
    • Origin of the Cao de Castro Laboreiro
    • Poodle History-Ship's Dogs
  • Reminder for me

    • Reminder
  • Zoology

    • Centre for Fortean Zoology
    • Ella Bay Forever
    • NatureBreak.org
  • Subscribe to Retrieverman's Weblog by Email
  • Revolver map

    Map

  • Top Posts

    • Why bigfoot cannot be Gigantopithecus
  • Blog Catalog Member

    Cats, Dogs and Other Pet Blogs - BlogCatalog Blog Directory
  • SiteCounter


  • Donate to this blog

  • Top 50 Northwest Dog Blogs

    top 50 dog blogs
  • Top Dog

    Top Dog Blog
  • This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License.

Blog at WordPress.com.

The MistyLook Theme.


Follow

Build a website with WordPress.com
%d bloggers like this: