I know I’m about to break one of my own rules.
I know I said I wasn’t going to write about pit bulls.
But I think I need to make an exception.
I’m not talking about BSL or anything that controversial.
Instead, I’m going to talk about a particular type of conformation show that pit bulls are now being bred for.
To illustrate my issue, here is G. G belongs to my cousin, Laura Atkinson:
G is a brindle pit. I don’t think anyone would argue about what he is.
He’s typical of the unregistered pit bull-type that exists throughout the country. (I know that technically there are American pit bull terriers, which are a UKC recognized breed, and there are “pit bulls,” which are not.)
The UKC standard calls for a dog that isn’t vastly dissimilar to G.
Something like this:
It’s not a particularly exaggerated dog in terms of its conformation.
The AKC recognizes another type of North American bull and terrier type, which is called the American Staffordshire terrier. (Not to be confused with the Staffordshire bull terrier, which is an English bull and terrier breed that was derived from bull and terrier types that were not bred from the Hinks strain).
These terms are all highly contentious, but let’s just say that the bull and terrier types that don’t have egg shaped heads aren’t particularly exaggerated dogs. The official breed standards call for very moderate dogs.
But there are other conformation standards.
In recent years, there have been new “Atomic dog” shows. These Atomic shows actually do reward exaggeration in type.
This is the sort of dog they want:
These shows reward dogs with very wide chests and massive bone.
They aren’t being judged according to any breed club standards, so they’ve written their own.
Now, there’s nothing really wrong with people writing their own breed standards, but when these standards are rewarding exaggeration, then we do have to have some discussion about it.
I have not seen any studies on the health of these Atomic-type dogs, but my guess is they are being predisposed to certain growth-related health problems, like OCD .
It’s also very likely that these dogs are being given growth supplements to build these Schwarzenegger bodies, and in Atomic Dog magazine, these hormones are advertised. If you have to give a dog growth hormones to produce the type you want, then there are definite ethical questions that must be answered.
There is nothing in the bull and terrier’s history that would require the breeding of such beefy dogs.
It’s simple vanity.
And I don’t think we’ve looked closely at the welfare issues associated with breeding for this particular phenotype in this particular breed.
After all, the enthusiasts who breed this sort of dog aren’t operating even within the framework of established kennel clubs.
And it’s relatively new.
But it does need to be examined.
It’s not just the conformation shows within the major clubs that are causing canine distortions.
They are also happening in other places.
The main registry for this sort of “wide stance” pit bull is the American Bully Kennel Club.
They also register a “Shorty Bull,” a wide stance dog with even shorter legs!
They even have a totally bogus breed called an “Old Roman bulldog.” This is what it claims one of these dogs is:
Before all the modern Bulldog crosses of today, there lived a true giant Bull-Dog, the Bull-Dogs of old Rome. We have done the research and have acquired the right genetic makeup to produce what we feel is a good representation of a True “Original Bull-Dog”. A bull-dog that has a great temperment (sic) and can do work or just hang out with the family. The total package!
Um. No.
Bulldogs aren’t from Ancient Rome.
The best history on bulldogs traces them to the dogs of the Alani, but even that information is a subject to debate.
The truth is this sort of dog appeared in northern Europe and the British Isles during the Middle Ages, and over time diversified into a wide variety of breeds.
But if dog breeds didn’t originate in Ancient Egypt, then they obviously came from Ancient Rome!
Breeding for super exaggeration and making up certifiably nutty crap about bulldogs and bull-and-terrier types is not something confined to the Bedlams that are established breed clubs and registries.
The start-ups are often just as bad!
***
Some people claim that the American bully is a different breed, but I’m not playing into this game. Even if the dogs do have other blood in them, so do most unregistered pit bulls.
This is a silly argument– on the level of trying to split apart all the different dogs we call Jack Russell.
Keep in mind that Labrador retrievers were the last retriever breed to have a fully closed registry. Some lines of Labrador have the influence of other retriever breeds that others lack. For example, “English Labs” have a influence from flat-coated and golden retrievers, and “American trial Labs” often have an influence from Chesapeakes.
No one splits hairs over them.
So I’m not going to here.
There’s already too much stupid splitting among dog strains that I refuse to indulge it any more.
That’s a very weaselly way of operating– and it’s intellectually dishonest.
I saw two like this at a rest stop in VA last week. Looks like they’re going down the same path as the English Bull Dogs. Now that fighting ’em is out they’ll breed them for exaggerated features.
The “shorty bull” looks like nothing more than a Frenchie with cropped ears.
It’s definitely a Frenchie cross.
I’ve seen a lot of these types around Oklahoma, actually, the extremely wide, flat pits (usually obese). Some of them are used in weight-pulling, but I wonder if they stand up to more moderate dogs in competition. Most of them exhibit some of the lethargy I’ve seen in Old English bulldogs as well.
I’m glad you brought this one up. Yet another travesty of the dog world.
Those are disgusting mutants.
They will live short painful lives.
They have nothing to do with the APBT or the AST.
They are obviously bulldog mixes. They are not “bull and terriers” dogs.
The fanciers call them “american bullies” or names like that. They generally don’t call them “pit bulls.” Because of course, they are not.
There has never been a real “pit bull” (i.e. APBT or AST) that has looked like this, EVER. There are some short/squatty registered ABPTs (that may be mixes despite their pedigrees), but they are in no way as extreme as this.
These things haven’t even existed for more than a few generations.. so they’re not even a “breed” in any legitimate sense.
If you’re going to write about “pit bulls”, have the sense to write about dogs that are actually, you know, “pit bulls”.
The existence of pit bull mixes doesn’t negate the existence of the APBT which is a breed as legitimate and consistent as your breeds.
A pit bull mix is not a “pit bull”. Your comparison to different lines of Labs is inapt. A different line (or style) of a real APBT looks like THIS dog, a typical APBT of the ADBA registry (one of 2 “legitimate” registries for the APBT):
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.323269744369492.86835.133884319974703&type=3
You do realize the majority of hunters with bully mixes call their dogs “pitbulls”?
I am sorry, but when the majority of owners start using the word in that context, you have lost the ownership of the word.
Like how Kleenex or Q-Tip is no longer valid as a brand name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Staffordshire_Terrier
The American Stafford Terrier name seems to only reflect differences in Staffordshire Bull Terrier of England? Some breeders American Pit Bulls cross bred to Amstaffs. Agree splitting hairs seems only based on breeders who attempt to bred a more agreeable social dog.
The “AmBullies” are w/o question crosses between Pit Bulls and English and/or French Bulldogs, with whatnot tossed in. You are beginning to see more dogs of this sort in shelters. I would have to say that they are if anything less horribly exaggerated than the AKC show Bulldog long since has been, but they are catching up, which is a shame.
It doesn’t matter.
Most unregistered pit bulls have other things in them, too, but we don’t split hairs and wring our hands and say “not pit bulls.”
This is a tedious argument– and intellectually dishonest.
In Labrador retrievers, the registry was open until the 1940’s. Some Lab lines have influence from golden and flat-coated retrievers a bit more, while others show St. John’s water dog characteristics or those of Chesapeakes. We don’t say that Labs with more golden retriever ancestry are a different thing from those that have more Chesapeake.
Even if they have some bulldog in them, it doesn’t change the fact that they are mostly derived from bull and terrier strains.
The continuous splitting of hairs in bulldogs and their relatives is something I find bizarre and quite silly.
BTW, it is very possible to produce a very heavily boned dog without crossing to a heavily boned breed. The molosser breeds don’t all descend from the same root stock, which means they have been developed for that phenotype through a sort convergence through selective breeding.
The only dogs that can be certified as “pure” are AKC AmStaffs, UKC American pit bull terriers, Staffordshire bull terriers, bull terriers, and miniature bull terriers. Fighting dogs have been and are quite inbred, but the hog dog types are often crosses between pits and other dogs of this type, including American bulldogs.
That’s actually the reason why I am opposed to BSL. These terms and definitions are constantly changed to suit the needs of the person making the point. Such ad hoc argumentation is not useful, and it winds confusing people too much.
It’s the usual answer to anti-dog sentiments: ours are Special.
Your cousin’s dog is the ordinary pit bull that we see around here. Ghetto bred, mostly. Maybe that’s because the ghetto does not respect BSL.
Unfortunately, I think this not extreme type is the one that is PTS, victim of BSL, as the breeders of extreme types are well organized and well defended with their breed clubs, studbooks and tall tales of breed origins. We must defend the ordinary Heinz pit bull and oppose BSL. Just MO.
My wife and I are looking for a dog and want a puppy with a reliable pedigree(to the degree that exists). We also want a pit bull its been shocking to us how many pit bull breeders are breeding XXL bully type, Razorz edge pit bulls. Its the same exact tendency that ruined the English bull dog and now people are doing the same to pit bulls its a damn shame.
I’m surprised(though relieved)people haven’t started to import those poor examples of pit bulls over here, would certainly stand a better chance of avoiding being seized under the DDA. Especially if crossed with Ambulls, DDBs and the various other mastiff and bull breeds they tend to use. After all, it only has to look like a pit bull, doesn’t have to be one and if it doesn’t look like the laws idea of one, it isn’t, even if it is.
Nah, they’re not scary enough the poor little squashed up things. The dickless wonders who import breeds to get round the DDA go for breeds like presa canaria and recently bully kuttas. I own a Tibetan Mastiff and the thought of any LGD breed becoming the fashion with the chav on the street is a truly scary thought.
What a stupid law in the first place though. A show type labrador or a tall staffie is not far off being “of the type” enough to be seized. And it’s worked so well there are more pitbulls on the street now than there ever were before the DDA and the only incidents of humans killed by a pitbull were when any left alive should have been about 15 years old. It would be laughable if it wasn’t for the death toll of innocent family pets it’s left in it’s wake.
Couldn’t agree with you more. I love a stubby dog, but not a distorted, stubby dog. This type of distortion is disgusting. I have to wonder if the mothers can even birth these dogs naturally or if they undergo cesareans. Of course, I’m betting on cesareans. Another clue proving this just isn’t natural.
My cousin, who dabbles in steroid use, is very interested in the puppies produced by Big Gemini Kennels.
To the soundtrack of typical thug music (don’t get me started on urban culture and dogs), you can check out the “ADULT XL Blue Bully Pitbulls” for sale.
Yes, that’s right. They’ve come up with a name for these bulky dogs: bully pitbulls. Talk about redundant.
They’re not “pit bulls” anymore than a Goldendoodle is a “Golden retriever”
Then you’re buy into the blood purity cult that I have no time for.
Sorry.
You’d be correct if you said they weren’t registered American Pit Bull Terriers.
But pit bull isn’t just the American pit bull terrier.
Pit bull is a type that transcends breed.
Unless you want to rewrite the American English language, then have at it.
A goldendoodle is still a retriever. Both its ancestors are retrievers, and if you backross a doodle into a golden retriever, you do get dogs that look just like golden retrievers and act like them.
That would be a golden retriever in my book. I don’t care if one its grandparents is a poodle.
I kinda like pitties. One of the things I like is the huge variation of type and the lack of pretense. I find the beefy guys ugly and wouldn’t be surprised if the bulk compromises health . . . but what the hell. If people want muscled-up monsters, they’re probably better off with a beefed up pit bull than with an English bulldog. I’m not the least worried that the steroid look will become the norm for the . . . are they a breed? or a land race? or something in between. Most of the people who own pitties aren’t looking for extremes.
My understanding (and I don’t know where I got this, so someone who KNOWS is welcome to call bullshit on me) is that APBTs and AmStaffs are the same dog. After UKC was formed and started registering pit bulls, AKC ended up recognizing and registering a “cleaned up” version that was given the name of American Staffordshire Terriers (much as Jack Russell Terriers and Parson Russell Terriers are the same dog.) It’s true that UKC used to sanction dog fights (which, of course, is why they have so many rules about association with dog fighting now). Perhaps another example of the split between working and show dogs!
Both breeds claim famous APBTs/AmStaffs as their own (for instance, Petey of Little Rascals fame).
Not wishing to be pedantic, Nora (says he being just that) but speaking as a former UK judge of terriers I can assure you that jack russells and parson jack russells are two very different concepts.
P.S. Don’t show those “bully” breeders this!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myostatin
There are no doubt other Pit Mixes that are called Pit Bulls in shelters and elsewhere, but the any assumption that almost all Pit Bulls in shelters are mixes is unfounded. I really think that people used to show breeds have no idea how much morphological variation there can be in dogs bred to performance standards. I recommend looking at the Stratton books and historical pics of pit champion dogs to appreciate how much variation there has always been in the breed. But, getting back to mixes, what sets the AmBully situation apart is that these dogs weren’t produced by accidental matings or even random intentional breeding. It is the agenda of a group with its own new registry that holds shows to create more and more dogs like this. And that is what takes it to a whole new level.
This is why I stopped doing pit bull posts.
Everyone wants to lawyer around with the language.
Pit bull is a type. American pit bull terrier is a breed.
This is the same way that a feist is a type, and a rat terrier is a breed.
But a rat terrier is a feist.
All rat terriers are feists, but not all feists are rat terriers.
All American pit bull terriers are pit bulls, but not all pit bulls are American pit bull terriers.
I don’t use the term “pit bull mix” if it looks like a pit bull.
This is the same junk classification that kennel clubs have given us.
The rat terrier analogy works even better in this case, because there are strains of rat terrier that have things like bluetick coonhound in them. Others have toy Manchester or Italian greyhound in them.
But they are still rat terriers.
There’s only one thing this dog definitely can be called: “Revolting.”
And as said above, yes, it’s TOTALLY Ghetto-bred. They probably should just be called “Gangsta bullies!”
Would you rather be Michael Phelps with endurance and lean muscle, or a bodybuilder who bulks up but cannot lift a comb to his hair because all the useless inert tissue gets in the way?
I don’t know what’s wrong with people. This is just another reflection of insecurity and small-mindedness, as dogfighting is, as showing inbred, exxagerated bulldogs and mastinos is.
We may live on different sides of the country. I know in CA the “pit bull” is a big dog. Here they are probably related to the PB Terrier and are consequently smaller. But the ones I see in the inner city look like Scotty’s cousin’s dog. My guess is they are far removed from the fighting “pit Bulls”. My guess is they are descended from cheap dogs, the kind that poor people can obtain. If they were an AKC breed, we’d call them BYB. They are good, solid, healthy dogs and make good pets. A friend of mine answered a local ad and a guy delivered on to his door: a lovely 6 mo old bitch, clean, shiny, healthy, friendly. $50, please. It’s old fashioned, isn’t it? I mean to get a good-looking Heinz, locally bred.
Looks like they are trying to recreate the current English bull dog. the problem here is the very human tendency to want to have something “unique” and “special”. If everyone has a “pit bull”, why then “they” need to have something “more”. I don’t know how you eliminate this tendency in people because they even do it to themselves (piercings, tattoos, cosmetic surgery — etc). The best you can do is get the major conformation folk (AKC, UKC, the KC, etc) to stop rewarding such exaggeration when it impacts an animal’s health. That’s why I’d have loved to see Crufts force those judges to put up dogs that were passed by the vets — because it would have rewarded those who ARE trying to turn back the clock. Poor dog. I imagine it can’t get around the block much better than the English Bull dogs.
I assume that no one disagrees with the need to tackle the problem of dangerous dogs in society.
I see that statistically, in America, the pitbull has been involved in more deaths of people than any other breed by a large margin, which presumably translates to vast numbers of non fatal attacks involving this breed.
The pitbull phenomenon is relatively new to Britain and the government have acted responsibly, in most people’s opinions, to discourage their spread.
However, the dangerous dog legislators have tried to be reasonable in that any pitbull type dog which is seized can subsequently be tested and, if found sufficiently benign, be returned to its owner under license.
An example was shown just a few days ago on British tv where two pitbulls were seized and subsequently it was deemed appropriate to destroy the bitch because of her extreme aggressiveness but allow the male to be returned since he showed no aggressive tendencies. The safety of the public must come first, obviously.
Why does everyone think that pitties are so dangerous? They are just like any other dog. They can be trained to be aggressive, but they are really great family pets. We have had a pitty for 4 years now, and I can assure you he is the sweetest thing.
I don’t think you are violating your rules by talking about pit bull conformation; it was my understanding that your vow was that you were not going to post about anything related to the “pit bull wars”, i.e., “all pit bulls are Menacing Monsters” vs. “all pit bulls are Misunderstood Marshmallows”. Since a frequent topic in your blog is canine conformation, and pit bulls are, after all, canine, I don’t see this as a “broken rule”. Besides, it’s your blog so you can amend the rules anytime you want :-D.
I have noticed a marked trend toward hugely over-muscled pit bulls, especially in breeder’s ads. There’s a specific name for that type, that I can’t immediately recall. They look like they are on steroids (some of them probably really are; I knew a couple of veterinarians who sold steroids “under the table” to both gamecock breeders and pit bull breeders & I’m sure that there are unscrupulous vets who still do that sort of thing). These are generally dogs intensively bred in kennels rather than the more typical neighbor-to-neighbor breeding arrangements. Whether these dogs are bred for more aggression, I do not know.
I’m not going to violate your request to keep this blog out of the “good pit/bad pit” debate. I do find the increasing divergence of various extreme types within the breed (using that term loosely) a valid topic for further discussion.
I have to amend my post; I see that Fenris (above) knows the type I mentioned & could not recall the name. They are called Razor’s Edge pit bulls, or simply Razors.
For the record, I do not like the term “ghetto-bred”.
Why? Because it’s not PC? I work with a lot of people in my office from seriously ghetto nabes like East NY or Brownsville, South Bx, etc, and I’ll tell you they will say “ghetto” faster than anyone! They aren’t stupid. They know where they come from and they are terrified of “pit bulls” because of all the wrong people who have them; thugs. It’s sad.
No, it just offends me the same way some other words offend, because I grew up during a time when “ghetto” was used as a derogative term. If people who live in some areas want to use that as an “inside word”, well, that’s fine (where I live, we proudly call ourselves “hillbillies”, but when that word is used in other contexts, by other people, in a derogatory way, it can be offensive. It’s just not a word that I use anymore, just like I don’t say I “gyped” someone or “afro-engineered” something.
Invoking “PC” is for people who want to feel brave and edgy for being assholes in public.
Or it may be for people who are sick of having their free speech being corrected all the time, esp by folks who don’t know the person they are speaking to. Or just people who don’t spend too much energy worrying about it, shelving the issue under the small potatoes drivel that distracts folks from more important problems.
A lot of PC folks will even correct people who want to “own” a word and make it an “inside word” on the basis that they are degrading themselves and are too stupid to know it. Sure, there are folks with varying levels of intelligence and education. Maybe SOME of those folks are the ones okay with “ghetto” but don’t assume that all who are fine with it fall into the same category. I find categorizing people more insulting than terms popularly dubbed non-PC.
And isn’t what is PC or not, a matter of popular opinion after all? What’s so “edgy” about simply not having my choice of words dictated by some poll?
A) There are two clients I’ve met this year who breed this type of dog. One of them claimed his 3 year old bitch is worth $6000. Both are “fake gansta” types, and luckily(?) their dogs are so deformed they couldn’t fight a squirrel, let alone another dog. The dogs also all have yeasty skin and difficulty breathing, so yeah, I definitely suspect outcrossing with English bulldogs in the recent past.
B) RM, please note how I’m not engaging the pro-BSL troll up thread. I totally have self-control.
I know way more about horses than dogs, but I do know enough to tell you that that “Pitt bull” is unnatural. It was given some sort of steroid.
What about ADBA/BFKC- registred apbt then?
Even the showbred dogs have a fenotype that is more accurate for a “working pitdog”.
I don’t see how it’s even relevant to compare a “bull and terrier-mix” to a UKC-showdog.