Apparently when you own a real bulldog, you still have a dog that can hunt and kill.
Who knew?
This dog has been described as a bulldog or an “American bulldog,”
Whatever it is, it’s still a predatory mammal of the order Carnivora.
That means most of its ancestors killed bigger things than sea lion pups to survive. Furthermore, it’s some kind of real bulldog, and those dogs were used to control half-wild medieval cattle, bait bulls, catch wild boar, and bay up brown bears. They have been bred for powerful jaws and strong prey drive.
Even if this dog is sweet and gentle with people and other dogs, it is still going to have instincts and the prowess to be an effective predator.
Without training to teach them to avoid hunting certain animals, most dogs will hunt them.
My guess is that certain quarters will be spouting about how dangerous this dog is.
This particular dog not that dangerous.
She’s no more dangerous than this one:
The only difference is Miley killed a baby rabbit, which is from a species that isn’t protected by law, and this bulldog killed a baby sea lion, which is protected by federal law.
Many people get freaked out when dogs exhibit predatory behavior that actually results in the kill.
I find this quite interesting, because no one seems to get freaked out when cats do it.
And cats do it far more often and far more proficiently than any dog.
Predatory behavior, which people often incorrectly call “predatory aggression,” is something you sign up for when you bring one of these animals into your home.
And while it’s certainly true that dogs wind up forming very strong bonds people, they still have their heritage within the species of Canis lupus and the order Carnivora.
However, it’s pretty easy to train dogs to leave certain species alone.
And if they don’t want the dog killing sea lion pups, all they will have to do is invest a little time and effort into training it.
***
Having seen dogs kill things in the wild my entire life, I’m really quite shocked at the reaction of the people in this video.
This is so foreign to me that it make my stomach churn a bit.
***
If you think this is unnatural behavior for a dog to hunt sea lions, here’s a video of a relatively close of the domestic dogs targeting the pups of another eared seal species:
Although upsetting for onlookers, the dog really did nothing wrong ( except not obey its’ owner) We humans kill many thousands of seals by bashing them over the head, skinning them and leaving the bodies. At least this dog looked ready to eat his kill. My dog fishes for salmon, is that ok? Or offensive.
Unless you are a vegen, you can’t get too upset by this. If you want to see the reality of YOUR food, visit a slaughterhouse. You won’t sleep for weeks.
Umm, I’m sorry, but why on earth would a vegan be upset about something like this? I believe vegans are more concerned about the choices people make.
I’m not a vegan, but a vegetarian, and I’m certainly not upset about dogs/other predators acting by their instincts, hunting & killing prey. Because IT’S NATURAL.
As a former vegetarian I can attest that many other veggie heads, lacto-ovo to vegan – would definitely be upset. There are plenty like you and I hili that understand nature for what it is, but lots of people stick to this diet for all sorts of personal reasons and it is true that many of them simply fall apart at the idea of any animal being killed for any reason. I’ve met enough to know.
Unfortunately because of the frailty and reactiveness of these folks, they leave a bigger impression in the mouths of many, painting all meatless folks with one broad brush in their eyes. It’s frustrating.
I know many moral vegans and moral vegetarians who honestly believe wolves don’t kill deer. They eat grass like every other critters in the forest.
Oh. My. Dog.
Sounds like a reference to life before Eve took the apple. Be afraid!
I was vegetarian for over 17 years but it was never because the actual act of killing animals for food was upsetting to me. I won’t get into the reasons why. I will say that I was raised on plenty of meat, including freshly hunted deer. I do think that concepts of hunting and instinct, being so removed from the upbringing of many, if not most people today, plays a huge role in reactions like the one above.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I don’t go around enjoying watching animals get killed. I find a big difference between people who hunt with a mature appreciation for the act, and yahoos who seem to be so proud of each sport kill as to be getting a bigger hard-on with every shot.
Sea lions are known for being particularly bright, their social, and they have those cute faces, not quite as pushed in as a poor brachycephalic pooch, but still resemblant of infants, with big, gorgeous black eye that give a soulful impression. This combination of traits makes many pinnipeds especially endearing to a lot of people, including myself. I wouldn’t have been too happy watching this either.
The difference is I can separate my own feelings about it from my view of the dog. I could not hear all the comments. I don’t know how these people will view this dog or dogs in general after this one. I CAN be certain I would not have cried, panicked, wailed in misery, in other words, I don’t think I would have flipped out; probably not even have shed a tear. Because a dog is a DOG! It’s an animal, and nothing about this comes as a surprise to me. People expect far too much from dogs today IMHO, as a result of what I can only surmise to be the faux cover of “overcivilization.” Dogs are not animals to a lot of these people. They are fuzzy big toys that actually move on their own without need of a windup handle or pullstring. Pathetic really.
I remember Rman when I asked you if anyone was using Standard poodles for hunting any more. You referred me to Louter Creek Hunting Poodles. I’ve written to them via FB and have “liked’ their page, and I watched their master hunting dog Cooper make his debut on the show with Si. This former vegetarian may very well get herself a poodle and do some duck hunting before she kicks it. It’s because I DO love animals, and dogs, for all that they are, that I am considering this. The chance to appreciate a dog’s hunting instinct from an intelligent and passionate POV, with a meal at the end, makes perfect sense to me. I dont’ want to BLAM a zillion ducks from the sky. I just want my fair share, and BTW I think ducks are cute. I respect their role in life and want their numbers preserved. It’s possible to appreciate nature from both ends.
“Sea lions are known for being particularly bright, their social,”
I meant THEY’RE social,….. UGH!
Today I’m more concerned about an attack here yesterday on a 14 year old girl resulting in her death. She was alone at a friend’s house and whilst awaiting the friend’s return she was eating a meat pie when attacked by four dogs owned by the friend’s parents: two mastiffs and two staffordshires. The police shot them. A fifth dog was restrained. 5000 people are treated in hospital in England each year as a result of dog attacks, including 1250 children. My newspaper reports that the Dangerous Dogs Act bans only four breeds: pit bulls, Japanese Tosa, dogo argentino and filo brasiliero (those latter three barely exist here)but ignores other breeds which can be equally dangerous if not looked after properly. The legislation does not cover attacks on private property. I’l spare you any further rehearsal of the well known arguments on this subject .
Don`t be too hasty on this one, Peter. It now seems that the police are investigating it as a crime and are saying there may be a case to answer. It`s all very murky.
Meanwhile my county has banned all forms of dog training, by refusing any venues.
Funny old world.
What? All forms of dog training? LIke sit, stay, leave it, therapy dog work, don’t bite the mailman?
How is this even enforceable?
They own all the suitable venues, and they have barred all dog activities from them. In our climate, training in a farm field would not be something that could be regular. They say they owe nothing to “hobby people”.
And we don`t owe them a vote.
Elizabeth
I dread things happening like the poor girl in Manchester as I know people are going to start blowing it ridiculously out of all proportion to reality, the media are going to have a field day and even the government are going to jump on the bandwagon. There is never any balance either. I often wonder if it was labradors and spaniels that were involved, how many headlines would it have garnered and would the police have gone in guns blazing? Dog attacks by non bull or mastiff breeds rarely even get a paragraph. A few years ago on the same weekend there were two dog attacks on children. Both needed the same amount of stitches to their faces. One was an american bulldog if I remember correctly and made the headlines with a full page or more to the story. Same newspaper had two paragraphs on about page 25 reporting the other attack by a collie x retriever. I also remember the headlines about an old man being mauled to death in the street by his own dog and it taking an armed police unit to rescue the man. When the truth came out, the man had collapsed with a stroke, his dog had licked his face and pawed at him to try and revive him then stayed by his side. A well meaning lad had tried to help the man by attacking the poor dog with a baseball bat. Tell me what dog would not try to protect their owner when faced with nothing but a series of hostile, shouting men threatening him? The poor dog got shot to death and the very few news outlets that followed the story up did so in a much shorter and less obvious manner than the incorrect conclusions they had jumped to.
With this latest story, one newspaper was rattling on about 6 people being killed by dogs since 2007 like it was some huge danger to everyone. Well, it’s one human death a year to a dog attack, all in the home and statistically the number is same as it has been for many, many years. Yes it’s a tragedy and a horrible, totally preventable thing to happen as it’s always 100% human error. However, you can’t prevent all accidents by using a legislative steamroller to crack a nut. The annual risk of death in the UK is 1 in just in 63 million annually, which is basically 0%. If these bleating plonkers demanding breed bans and muzzling etc… were really “just finking of da kiddies” they’d demand the ban of people as statistically a child is much safer from death or serious injury with a rottweiler than it’s own parents as they notch up a child every 10 days. As for the 5000 people bitten out of a 7.3 million dog population, that translates to for you having to meet 1460 dogs before you ended up in hospital.
Reminds me of a Daily News story about a teen doberman left with a 90 year old woman and an infant. Lady could barely move around and left the infant on the floor with the dog. Dog “Mauls” baby. Old lady staggers to phone, calls cops. Cops show up, stick “vicious doberman” in closet. Paper describes dog as “madly pounding at door, barking.”
Family swears dog was always sweet before.
Dog was surely still sweet. But it’s a DOG! Doberman no doubt saw a squealing toy and shook it like dogs tend to shake things. The pounding at the door was just a dog pawing to get out with it’s people. Anyone who KNOWS dogs and can rationally assess, can see this for what it was.
But that doesn’t sell papers.
What it DOES do is lead people to ban innocent dogs, like my co op building that has house rules on pets saying “The board voted to refuse pit bulls, rottweilers and dobermans, due to their nature.”
Insinuating, yet vague. But it has a negative overtone that’s hardly fair.
I agree with Scottie. Certainly the dog did nothing unusual and very natural. I like seeing dogs hunt and be natural but my own dogs are well trained enough so I can recall them from the prey if I want/need too. My dogs are also trained not to hunt certain species. I have used e collars for this (controversial I expect) however I was wondering what method you have found useful?
Re the Manchester incident, while it will certainly stir up the breed ban debate and so on, but I don’t think breed bans are the answer. Pits were banned years ago and people just replaced them with staffis. Ban staffi’s and people will replace them with boxers. Eventually you could ban lots of breeds but whatever s left could still be trained/bred to be aggressive. You only have to look on youtube to see numerous ”soft” breeds doing bite work
and even more ”soft” breeds displaying aggression that hasn’t been deliberately trained. Just type in aggressive and whatever breed you want.
I don’t think restrictive legislation is the answer on dog issues at all! Its too easy/tempting to get around it and creates resentment and lack of cooperation.
I think overall there needs to be more education on easy and effective training techniques and ways of living with dogs (relationship stuff) that help make it easy for dogs to adapt to human requirements without being unfulfilled which imo is the cause of lots of issues (e;g lack of outlet for natural drive and energy)
In this incident I expect the food was the cause of a fight between two or more of the dogs which she tried to break up and they redirected onto her.
Adam
These same folks will yell loud and long about protecting the Polar Bear and wolf (which I too would like to see survive as species) yet the main prey of Polar Bears is pinnipeds like this sea lion pup. As I recall, we saw a similar reaction among zoo-goers when a lion or bear (I forget which) snatched a bird out of the air. Yet those same zoo-goers will eagerly line up to see that animal fed its daily ration of raw meat (meat that came from living, breathing, bleeding animals.)
I’m not saying people should necessarily enjoy seeing something like this, but they should understand it as part of nature. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If you can’t stand the sight of something like this, then you should become a vegetarian. Any other response is hypocrisy.
Cultural insight:, if these folks were Inuits, they’d be praising the dog rather than damning him.
Agreed!
The most “aggressive” dog in our neighborhood is a Springer Spaniel (extremely dog- and people-aggressive), the next most aggressive is a Pyr (male dogs only) and a Shiba Inu (just generally a little pisser.) Would the general public want to outlaw these three breeds? I think not.
Other than them, we have Border Collies, Aussie Shepherds, Labs, Beagles, Brittanies, Dobes, Poodles, Pitties, Goldens, GSDs, Newfies and various crosses–none of them exhibit aggressiveness w/ people. The deal here is that they’ve been properly socialized w/ dogs, cats, people and livestock. On the trail we all use (which is on a private farm) these dogs walk off-leash w/ their owners w/ no problems (except for the local groundhogs.) On the same trail are joggers and equestrians.
I’ve often thought that instead of licensing dogs, we should license dog ownership. We humans would have to pass certain tests before being allowed to have a dog. Maybe that way we could prevent some of the basket case dogs that end up in the rescues/pounds (like the one we recently adopted) as well as the number of dog attacks.
“I’ve often thought that instead of licensing dogs, we should license dog ownership.”
I second this thought :-)
I’ve never seen a golden retriever do that before.
It’s actually somewhat disconcerting to watch!
I felt the same way when I saw this foreign video of a Saint Bernard doing the same bite work.
There are several videos of the same female dog by the owner/ trainer. Even though, like the border collie above, the Saint seems to be in it more for the glove, that is the scariest thing for a former Saint owner to see. I don’t agree with training a breed as large as most women to attack people, even for the glove. Those jaws can do some serious harm. This kind of aggression I have only seen in an old 1935 Call of the Wild movie, with no rules against abuse then, I worried they beat the Saint in that movie to show the aggression it displayed. Not like Lassie movies were the dog is ‘playing’ and the noises are added in.
I agree that the Golden above is more frightening because the attacker has no glove, so he/she wants the human and it is not a game.
The Soviets created a variant of the St. Bernard that was used as a defense dog. It is like a real Cujo.
Yep, the Moscow Watchdog. I really do not like the Russian version of guardian & protection dogs. They’ve damn near ruined the Caucasian Ovcharka, turning it into am enormous killer prison guard dog rather than a reasonable, athletic LGD, & they’re well on their way to royally screwing up the Central Asian Shepherd, pushing for 200 pound behemoths that want to kill every other dog on sight. And of course they claim both breeds as their own, even though neither are native Russian dogs.
Two of the most vicious (and incredibly dangerous) dogs I have ever encountered were purebred Saints. Not related (as far as I know; they lived in different towns, several years apart). During the late 70s/80s, Saints had a bad reputation as biters, at least in this area. I haven’t met any Saints who offered to bite in at least 20 years, though.
I have seen it Rman. And you’re right, it IS disconcerting. I’ve also seen this with Chinooks, kelpies, poodles, border collies, I think I even found a border terrier bite work video once.
Adam, there are more pitbulls on the street in the UK than there ever were before the ban. And I don’t mean merely “of the type” as the government puts it. You ban anything and all you do is make it even more desirable to the people that were the cause for you to ban them in the first place. They just call them Irish staffies or even blatantly American staffs and pitbulls. Plus the other breeds banned were never here to begin with. And you can import/breed/own dogs like the bully kutta, ambulls, cane corso, presa canaria etc… with no restrictions. How are they any different from a tosa, fila or dogo? I remember when the DDA came in and most of the casual gladiator dog enthusiasts just went supersize and got neapolitans or dogue de bordeaux. The DDA is a bad joke as the only people killed by pitbulls were so long after the ban that any pittie should have been long deceased or totally decrepit. It was a knee jerk reaction and a piece of populist, tabloid lead legislation picking on a soft target that lead to many harmless pets being seized and killed. It’s actually made matters worse if anything.
As usual, the law in Scotland is different. It concentrates on “the deed, not the breed”, and holds the owner responsible. The dog should be restrained, and retrained, and the owner educated in the control of dogs.. It is not felt that the breed is relevant.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justice/law/control-dogs
Elizabeth
The Scottish lawmakers appear to have a rogue agent with a modicum of common sense. Hope he recruits and they infiltrate the chinless wonders on Whitehall. We only have Vince Cable and the others try to do their best to character assassinate him.
You have no idea just how much the Tory government is hated up here. And as for the coalition partner – just a joke.
Elizabeth
Does SCotland have a pit bull ban? They are part of the U.K. and I was under the impression that all of the U.K. now have a ban on them.
We have, but it has been amended.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/254430/0114020.pdf
Elizabeth
Here’s a Bernese Mountain dog that’s not just a sleeve tugger. Rather dangerous if I say so myself.
Also another BMD,but this one doesn’t come across as much of an attack dog. Well like it doesn’t really want to be doing what its doing,and seems kinda confused.
A breed I never thought of as a guard dog,but I guess I was wrong.
Wow, that first video is scary! They “tease the puppy as often as possible”?? This dog will NOT be a “real defender” of its owner one day, more likely he’ll be turning ontu his owner or family members one day.
Very scary seeing this done to a Bernese….
Yes,same dog in second link also but not third. I don’t like the idea of turning a dog vicious,the dog doesn’t know how to recall and won’t know a friendly stranger from a foe. You have to be very responsible to train a dog in protection work,and I don’t see that here. That dog is very dangerous.
But Scottie, that big dog was just so mean to the wittle seal baby!
I was more impressed by how physically inept the people were. I mean, I’ve seen seven year olds with more grace, strength, and coordination.
Perhaps they shouldn’t have a dog that can outstrip them so very easily.
But yes, this is definitely indicative of the fact that people are utterly divorced from the reality of nature and instead utterly focused on the romance of Disney. Gross.
This dog could stand a little shock therapy, if you get my drift…
At the end of the day The facts remains that these people are taking a dog out into a public place that they are obviously unable to control, this is my primary concern. If that had been a toddler playing in a rock pool instead of a seal things could have been a lot worse. One of the first things you should train a dog to do is release whatever it has on its mouth. My dog can be stubborn at times but she will always release on command regardless of the circumstances.
And pulling on a dog usually only encourages it to hang on more tightly. First lesson they need to learn.
A toddler is not a sea lion pup. Dogs tend to be pretty good at not getting the two confused. Normal prey behavior should NEVER be equated with aggression towards humans.
I think dogs differ on how they view children or babies. They may see small humans as other prey ( see my response elsewhere here regarding a doberman) or as something altogether different.
My kelpie likes adult humans. He ignores other animals, and is fearful of children. Three viewpoints. Three major categories of creature in his eyes, so it seems.
I understand what you are trying to say Janine but sadly I suspect the parents of 11 month old Michael Naglee who was killed by an American Bulldog in 2011 at a family gathering may not agree with you. The fact remains the dog in the video displayed aggression of an unacceptable nature that the owners could not control or even moderate effectively whilst in a public place. Regardless of whether this aggression was a result of prey drive, the fact that they could not stop this behaviour shows me that the owners were negligent for allowing it off leash. If you cannot recall your dog and get it to release on command it has no place off leash in a public place. Common sense really.
My own dog (Catahoula) has a strong prey drive and would love to chase birds on the beach etc but she knows that that behaviour is not what I want and controls that urge. If a stranger enters our property at night she will display very threatening behaviour and she knows that this display is acceptable as long as she is is standing with us and not instigating an attack. As owners we have a responsibility to train our dogs to act in a safe and acceptable manner when taking the animal out in public, we owe it to others and most of all we owe it to our dogs.
The dog is going to be blamed for the poor judgment of his owner. Again.
The funny thing is that in my part of the world, a dog that would do such a thing to a small sea lion would do it to a raccoon or fox, and thus, it would be worth quite a bit just for doing that.
It’s entirely outside its cultural context.
“I’ve often thought that instead of licensing dogs, we should license dog ownership.”
I second this thought :-)
My general experience is a dog can have an extremely high drive to hunt and kill other animals but be extremely mellow with all other people and dogs. As Scottie says prey drive is not social aggression.
I do agree they need more control of the dog though.
Adam
And that’s exactly why my shar-pei NEVER runs loose outside my back yard. If she wasn’t on a lead when on walks, the local cat and wildfowl populations would be decimated and I’d be public enemy number 1.
What I saw:
1. A young girl trying to pull the seal pup out of dog’s jaws, thereby choking the pup
2. Another girl hitting the head of the dog
3. Another girl trying to do something that was not working instead of trying to open the jaws of the dog with a stick or a ranch
4. A human bulldog pulling the dog away finally and appearing as mad as hell
5. All the people running away without caring for the seal pup
6. Videomaker continuing to make the video without interfering or suggesting something.
Overall, Mega-failure of humans as a race.
I have to agree, so many things gone wrong here…
And then what? They just leave like this? Kind of disturbing how they just left the pup, even though it was dead already.
In my part of the world, if your dog poaches, you have to announce this to the gamekeepers, and you have to bring the kill. If you made the mistake, to not have your dog trained and under control, at least stand up for it!
This is a protected, though not endangered species.
And the owner is an astronaut, whose wife was a former member of congress who has actually a victim of a mass shooting (one of those hazards of being an American) a few years back.
I doubt they would be in any trouble over this.
Their are people who want to crucify them because their KILLER PIT BULL attacked and killed that baby sea lion. Oddly enough, those same pit bull haters forgot to notice that the dog NEVER ONCE tried to snap or otherwise make fight toward the people who were pounding on it and grabbing it all over, including its mouth, trying to get the baby sea lion, its PREY, away from it.
People are stupid. No, ignorant. No, BOTH! Pit Bulls aren’t my cup of tea; I don’t care for most of the “bully” breeds; just personal preference. But any dog is liable to kill a mewling baby animal, especially an unfamiliar one. If this had been done by someone’s Lab or collie or mutt, the same people who are calling for the dog’s head on a platter would probably be screaming that the people had abused the dog by beating on it.
Shew. I can’t believe I wrote “their” instead of “there”. Facebookitis.
All those stupid girls were doing was unwittingly encouraging the dog into holding on and making the seal’s wound even worse by pulling on it’s tail. All I could think was let go of the seal for the love of god! Choke the dog off by lifting the lead high up or pick him up by the ears even if you have to, but stop playing the game you likely play with your dog daily with an inanimate toy an expect the dog to know the difference.
The dog was having a great game of tug of war in his eyes and getting hit on the head was just raising his adrenaline levels so he got even more intent. I don/’t know what happens when you put a camera in someone’s hand, but parents will carry on filming their own child hurting themselves and crying before they even think of putting the damn thing down and either stopping them having a preventable accident or comforting them.
Panic never really results in rational planning though, does it?
If some forward planning had been put into place, i.e. keeping the dog on a lead in an area known as a nature reserve, no panic would have ensued. I know accidents happen, but a handy tip for these girls (and the people I see daily, walking their dogs down a busy main road with the lead hanging round their neck rather than the dog’s) is that dog leads only work when one end is attached to the dog and the other end to the human.
Hey Scottie
It is kinda weird isn’t it! Sadly I have had a retriever do that to me but as a food aggression case (she is a big pale one so bit different from the working line one in the vid) it was quite a surprise even though I was kinda expecting it. I had a sleeve on and just ignored her (much as poss) until she quit. This seemed to make a big impact on her as she learnt that being aggressive wasn’t getting her anywhere so had to explore new ways of coping with people near her food.
I also agree that the dogs behavior would be totally acceptable and encouraged in another scenario. Its the classic instinctive behavior conflict that most pet dogs are victims of in some way.
What I would like to see is them get some decent training on the dog (e collar basis) and return to the beach with the dog off leash but under control and video that! That would demonstrate that even if a dogs done something ”bad” it can be retrained.
Massugu. I see a fair few springers with aggression. Big issue for springers round here is they are often used by shooting people, they breed the dog to sell pups to their mates or replace an old dog and sell the excess pups off cheap. In pet homes the dogs are under stimulated and the frustration makes them a little crazy! Nice dogs though with the right lifestyle and training.
Adam
I didn’t have a problem with the dog doing something that comes naturally to it. What upset me is that these people were too stupid and irresponsible to control their dog in a public place. There are appropriate times and appropriate situations when breed drives should be allowed to be expressed. I occasionally hunt with my spaniels and my terrier has gone to ground to kill vermin on our property. That sort of behavior is something I embrace and encourage in my dogs. Killing federally protected animals on a public beach is not appropriate at all.
In that video I see a dog doing exactly what it was bred to do; a good dog in the right hands in the right place. But this dog was in the wrong place, and I must ask what the hell that inept girl was doing with that type dog out on a public beach where there was a very good chance they would encounter sea lions? I have a friend who lives in Laguna Beach, and she informs me sea lions are quite common there, so this wasn’t some rare surprised encounter that caught everyone off guard.
Beyond the mistake of having the wrong dog in the wrong place, the woman futilely smacking the dog in the head knew absolutely nothing about what she was doing. The girl pulling on the sea lion pup was only helping the dog kill it, and the girl hanging onto the dogs back and wailing like a child (maybe she was a child) had no idea at all what she was doing. Human error all the way around. Know what your dog is capable of, but also know what you’re capable of. This was probably just a case of a good dog in the wrong hands. That girl should have had a toy poodle and then still kept it on a leash.
DAC
Here’s a crazy concept: Don’t allow your pet predator to run free on a beach frequented by federally-protected animals.
The only people shocked and horrified by this are those who are under the delusion that a dog is an always-benign, furry human being.
I am having trouble raising capital for a new start-up homeowners insurance company that promises to treat all dog breeds as equally safe/dangerous in urban and suburban settings.
I know there is huge demand from people who’s dogs have been unfairly labeled as risky insurance bets, simply because of their selective breeding, but I cant get the math to work in order to convince potential investors.
Even when i try to convince skeptical actuaries that all breeds exhibit antisocial behavior at equal frequency, they keep throwing the “probability of catastrophic injuries/death” argument back at me. Thankfully, human maulings are rare, and other people’s pets who get attacked are only considered personal property, and the only damages we’d have to pay, is the price of the dog. I think we could make a lot of money.
I may have to focus on liability insurance for AR-15 owners. Also something only dangerous to others if owned by the wrong type of owner.
Kidding about all of the above. People who think that (adjusting for all other variables) fighting dogs are no more dangerous to other dogs/humans than non-fighting dogs are terrible at math, probability, and logic.
This is the mind-set we’re dealing with, talk about stupid “Mo-fos”:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/marion-barry-apologizes-for-insult-to-national-park-service/2013/03/28/758ffc66-97c6-11e2-b68f-dc5c4b47e519_story.html?wpisrc=nl_buzz
The interesting thing I noted in the video (as Kali already pointed out), is that after the dog let go of the sea lion pup, none of the people involved even gave the pup a second glance (except the guy videotaping it and few other spectators). True, it might have appeared dead, and probably was, but if it was only unconscious, their uncaring attitude surely doomed it as they walk away without a backward glance and left it to drown in the surf.
I‘m sure no one in Mr. Kelly’s family will be prosecuted or fined for this event, but I can’t help but wonder what would happen if my dog had done it.
DAC
Here we get fined already if the dog kills a groundhog off-season. No idea what would happen if we had sea lions a dog killed one of those. :/
Groundhog season is open all year here.
A season for Groundhogs? That’s a new one.
It’s a highly promoted and protected game species. There are even TV shows about hunting them. (Well, there is at least one blog LOL).
Yes, here in Switzerland we have a season for everything. ;)
That’s an alpine marmot, not a groundhog. They are both marmots though.
Right Sir, I knew I had the translation wrong. Can’t trust those dictionaries anymore.
Kalikukur, what’s the dog in your Gravatar photo?
DAC
It’s a mutt, I found her in a temple in Kathmandu, Nepal. :)
Beautiful; I can’t tell much from the photo, but her ear-set and head shape suggest she may have some sighthound in her. Sorry to get off subject.
DAC
Thanks! We really have no idea about her ancestors, but her behavior suggests some kind of scenthound.
If you’re interested, there’s a couple photos on her facebook page: facebook.com/KaliKukurDog
Here’s the problem I have with this. There’s a leash law in Laguna Beach, so the Gifford/Kelly party were breaking the law to start with. (the claim is that the leash broke, but the laws don’t actually allow that as an excuse). While people were advocating drowning the dog and others (complete strangers apparently) were beating on the dog to get it to let go, Kelly WALKS (not runs) to the scene. The video doesn’t start with the attack, the seal is already dead by the start of the video. It’s lucky the dog didn’t turn on the two women (if you look close, the dog turns INTO Kelly at being made to release. Fortunately he managed to control that and avoid a bite). A lot of dogs will bite when forced to release during a fight.
4. The police state ” no laws were broken” http://articles.coastlinepilot.com/2013-03-25/news/tn-cpt-0329-seal-lion-dog-attack-20130325_1_sea-lion-americans-for-responsible-solutions-giffords
— ah, contraire. STATE law was. “Existing law makes it unlawful to permit or allow a dog to pursue any big game mammal, as defined, during the closed season, or any fully protected, rare, or endangered mammal at any time” “Existing law authorizes employees of the Department of Fish and Game to capture any dog not under the reasonable control of its owner or handler,
that is in violation of that provision, or that is inflicting, or immediately threatening to inflict, injury in violation of this provision.” From the SB 1221 bill of 2012, which passed and is now law, and allows such a dog to be killed, no questions asked. — and yep, sea lions are protected.(http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/species/mammals/pinnipeds/californiasealion.htm) I understand that what the dog did is natural and normal. And plenty of people watch Nat Geo showing a killer whale dispatching a sea lion — which is just as dead as it was from the dog attack. What I find objectionable is that the Kelly/Gifford dog was given a “pass” whereas a dog killing a bobcat in your own yard would not be unless it was a LGD or herding dog in protecting it’s flock. And people like the Kelly/Gifford group are fine with that — until it is THEIR dog.
The leash law should have been obeyed. As I understand it California has beaches with off leash times, even with dog surf contests, which you cannot do on-leash.
So what if an endangered species of marine mammal wanders up on the wrong beach at the wrong time? Even the best-trained dog may forget himself when faced with a rare hunting opportunity? And lord knows dogs are faster than we are and have powerful teeth and jaws.
So, in such an unfortunate instance, would that dog and owner get a pass?
Some prey animals will collapse with shock and can appear dead as a result. Certainly this might have been the case with the sea lion so they should have dragged it out of the surf to give it a chance.
I would never rely on simply using a lead to keep a dog in control. A lead is only as good as long as the dog remains on it and a dog can get off lead by accident very easily and in a vast number of ways. Also a lead is no good if something comes in range of the lead.
I basis this on the large number of clients I’ve had who were managing their dogs behavior by keeping it on a lead this has failed for the reasons above and they have then come to me for help.
One issue I also see with dogs permanently on leash is even if they get off around mild distractions the adrenaline rush of being free completely overwhelms them and they immediately enter a state were by they are far more likely to be aggressive or difficult than is they were frequently off leash.
Adam
People should be evaluated for a license to own a dog by weight class. In this case, nobody involved should be allowed to own a dog over 20 lbs.
This subject all boils down to this being the wrong dog in the wrong hands. It’s obvious the people who own this dog should not own an American Bulldog, or any other of the more active and possibly aggressive breeds. It seems people sometimes get dogs of this type, and then expect them to become lambs in their hands. If they want a lamb, then they should get a real lamb to begin with. That girl and that dog could only work together in a best case scenario. Anything close to a worst case scenario pops up and all hell breaks loose. My old Lobo (the dog that killed a cow), and his son, Blanco, were the perfect dogs for me. But they were full-blown carnivora predators, and when I had them in public I had to be alert and “on my toes” every minute. You could never relax and just strolled in the sun with them, because they were same sex aggressive to the extreme, and so protective of me that if anyone were to come up and slap me on the shoulder to say ‘Hi’ they would go straight for the throat; no padded-sleeve biters these. Under my verbal control they could go anywhere off-leash, but I had to see all potential problems before they did. Blanco grew up in the bars I worked in, and was perfectly safe unless someone took liberties with him, or threatened me. One of my “jokes” (and definitely a not so bright one in retrospect) was for me to grab an annoying person by the shirt front, shake them lightly and call out, “Blanco, they’re going to hurt me.” Blanco would appear out of nowhere and, knowing I was just fooling around; stand on his hind legs and gently (for him) mouth the annoying person’s face while issuing a playful growl. One night I did this to a rather large guy, who thought it great to have Blanco jumping on him and playfully mouthing his face. Later that night as I walked through the bar this same guy stepped out of the crowd and grabbed me by the shirt front and yelled, “Blanco, I’m going to h…” I just barely had time to knock the guy’s hands away and spin around and knock Blanco aside as he sailed for this guy’s throat, this time in all seriousness, with no playful “mouthing” on his mind. I could instigate such play, no one else could. These same two dogs would lie on the floor and let my brother’s little daughters crawl all over them, sticking fingers in eyes, ears and nostrils, and never make an aggressive move: they wouldn’t even get up and walk away.
In the hands of anyone not totally prepared for the “different” life I had to live with these two dogs (from 1965 to 1989) they would have been in constant trouble. Belonging to a girl such as I assume Mark Kelly’s daughter is, they would have been nothing but a disaster waiting to happen. Every dog, even a good dog, is not the right dog for everyone. Just because your dog is a real baby sleeping on the couch with its head in your lap doesn’t mean it can’t turn into a killer in a second given the right stimuli. I’m sure the Kelly girl is a nice person who never intended for her dog to hurt anything, but she had no more business walking that dog on that beach than she would have walking Lobo or Blanco.
DAC
I’m not sure size makes a difference. I own 3 jrts, one belongs to me because he put his previous owner in hospital. This was over food. In an attack scenario this dog will not back down, I’ve worked with him and can remove food from him without a problem. He doesn’t weigh more than 20 lbs.
All 3 of my jrts have very strong prey drives, are very independent and have a high defense response (fight not flight if pressured) the youngest came to me last yr as he was in a rescue and would attack (out of fear) anyone who approached him. A big dog with more flight less fight and lower drive would be much easier to handle than a little one.
I do agree that it can take a certain person to own a certain dog. My jrt is an example of this. Pretty good dog for me but not for last owners. My working line gsd is another example of this, 6 homes before me. I also have a collie bitch who 3 behaviorists wrote off. She was owner aggressive and also iffy with strangers and other dogs. Very sweet dog with me and friendly with strangers, neutral with other dogs but lives with 6 others so not exactly awful!
I think with a very dominant dog they do need a special person to live well with.
However I think that many people can have success with their dogs if they get the right training. And here’s the thing that training my need to involve a degree of aversion to ensure the dog respects the commands enough to override its instincts and obey. Atm this is rather unpopular as a view point but hey the shelters are also full! That bulldog in the vid could maybe be handled well by the owner if the dog was remote collar trained.
Atm I have a client with an american bulldog who thinks little dogs are prey! Very powerful driven dog. But the owners are committed and we are making good progress.
Pretty good for a dog that would run across a park to get another dog! The owners said something similar to DAC though, they can never relax with this dog like they do with their other dog (big rottie)
Adam
You’re right, size doesn’t matter. As the old saying goes, it’s the fight in the dog, not the dog in the fight. Any dog can be a potential problem, but at least a 20 lb. JRT is less likely to physically drag its owner into a fight as opposed to a 90 lb. American Bulldog. My little Patterdale is a bundle of dynamite, but the people I bought her from started her well, and I’ve trained her to obey voice commands so she’s 100% under my control at all times. Lobo and Blanco were so well trained, that even though they were terribly aggressive towards strange male dogs if left to their own devices, I could put a strange male dog in the back of my truck with them and they’d never touch it. They would even tolerate baby raccoons (I was raising) crawling all over them, and they liked nothing better than killing raccoons. But they were only well behaved because they were raised to understand that my word was the command of the only God they knew.
Even if that young Kelly girl had attended all kinds of obedience classes, and her bulldog sat on command, walked at heel (obviously only when it felt like it), and obeyed the basic commands in a normal situation, she was not, and probably never will be prepared for what happened with that sea lion. It was obvious she had no idea how to get that dog off it when the shit hit the fan, and it’s actually a testimony to how well behaved that dog is towards people that no humans were injured in that fiasco. I still say the most troubling thing about the whole incident is that the Kellys just walked away from what might well have been just a badly injured animal without a backward glance. Even pulling that baby sea lion out of the surf would have increased it chances of survival had it only been unconscious. But once their dog was off it, they had absolutely no concern for that animal; federally protected species or not.
DAC