The internet is a place where people go to fight with strangers.
And because one can make one’s online identity virtually anonymous, one suddenly realizes that one has license to be as crazy and vindictive as possible.
The people who do this as a hobby are known as trolls, but even accounting for those people, the internet is still a decent place to have a discussion about issues that one normally wouldn’t discuss with others.
But there are some debates that I find tedious.
One that wears me out is the debate about which predator will best another in a hypothetical fight to the death. People even make Youtube videos about this crap, where they post things like clips of Sir David Attenborough claiming that Amur tigers eat brown bears or footage of a crocodile eating a bull shark (albeit a small one).
In that same vein, another debate that wears me out is the old golden retriever vs. Labrador debate.
I shouldn’t dignify this schism by calling it a “debate.”
It’s really a game of one-upmanship that involves people bringing up anecdotes and other good examples of what might be called confirmation bias.
Each camp will bring up bits and pieces of information that make their case: golden retrievers win more obedience titles than Labradors; more Labradors are guide dogs than golden retrievers.
And then we’d get anecdotes.
If I were to make my case, I’d say that I have lived with golden retrievers that have figured out how to open doors, get tennis balls thrown when a person passes a lawn mower over it, and find missing Christmas money and an errant beanie baby.
I would say that most of the Labs I’ve known have been big lunkers of dogs that remind me more of Jethro Bodine or Homer Simpson that the dogs celebrated in duck blinds and guide dog schools throughout the country.
But that’s because the golden retrievers I’ve known have all come from working lines or were partially derived from them.
The Labs were all giant pet line dogs, most of which had no interest in retrieving or swimming.
The truth is there is no way one can make any of these claims rationally.
Both of these breeds are derived from the same stock, and both were essentially developed in their current form in the United Kingdom. They also have been heavily interbred throughout their development. They really aren’t distinct “taxa” as people might assume. Golden retrievers have a well-known outcross to a yellow Labrador, and it is well-accepted that golden retrievers were crossed into yellow Labrador lines to lengthen the coat.
Labradors in the US have undergone selective breeding for our kind of retriever trial, which, of course, means they are superior at winning this kind of trial.
But both of these breeds are capable of doing what they were bred for.
Golden retrievers are just much less likely to have been bred for it.
But a golden retriever that’s been bred for it is going to best a Labrador that has not.
And to make things even more complicated, both of these breeds are so common that it is really foolish to make broad, sweeping statements about either.
There are so many of these dogs that exist in so many different lines that have experienced so many different kinds of selection pressures that you simply cannot make generalizations about them.
Except for two: golden retrievers tend to be a softer, more sensitive breed than Labradors, and Labradors tend to mature faster than golden retrievers.
Tendency is not the same as an absolute.
And when you ask people questions about what the best breed is you’re not going to get anything useful.
You’re going to get people who look at it from their own perspectives and experiences, which includes biases based upon anecdote and cultural mores.
You’re much better off meeting a dog as an individual.
And stay the heck away from internet forums and Yahoo! groups.
Labs mature faster than goldens? In some Labrador lines, a pup doesn’t reach full mature proportions (especially with respect to bredth of head and shoulder) until three to four years of age, and some Labs seem never too grow out of puppyhood, temperament-wise. Other lines seem to mature at a year to 18 months.
The Lab vs golden thing that irks me is how the golden crowd sometimes takes possession of the word retriever. Eg, on Dogzonline forums, the ‘Retriever’ breed section is owned by Goldie folks…the Lab crowd identify as ‘Those Crazy Labradors’. Labbies, Chessies, and Goldie’s are all retrievers!
Golden retrievers aren’t really mature until they are about 3.
It’s all part of the human condition, which the internet seems to amplify. Looking at most Forums and groups, you’d be forgiven for thinking cyberspace is shaped like a huge, cosmic, wooden spoon with “my dad’s bigger than yours” carved on the handle.
Here in the UK, Guide Dogs For The Blind favour labradors crossed with goldens as the very best guide dogs of all. The lab vs golden spat is par for the course as far as dog breed ignoramus death matches go. Trying not to get dragged in as a contestant rather than spectator is the hard part.
Hey Jen, what happens when someone throws the Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers into the melee?
It amuses me to hear people speaking of “blacklabs” as if that was the name of a separate breed. Not a Labrador Retriever of a certain color, but a “Blacklab”.
Or a yellow lab or a chocolate lab ….worse still, a golden lab….which to me means a Goldie x Lab retriever. As for the Nova Scotia Duck Trolling retriever…needs some editing…too long winded . How bout Nova Scotia duck dog….or simply Toller. A rare, and unhealthy breed, btw. See comments on Border Wars. http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2013/01/as-the-toller-burns.html
Some years ago (more than I care to remember) a fellow came to see my dogs, looking for advice on purchasing a golden retriever. After the requisite informational conversation, he was still puzzled. His question was, “Why do your dogs have long hair?” ….turned out that he was looking for a “golden Lab”, i.e., a yellow Labrador retriever.
So ensued another conversation.
If you want to mess with their heads, show them photos of long-haired dachshunds.
Everyone thinks those are golden retriever/dachshund crosses.
Same mistakes can be said for bear coated Shar Pei, everyone thinks they looks like a Chow Chow mix, and so they might. Since it was a Chow Chow female introduced into the lines of one of the founder dogs in China that gave that long haired recessive gene. Since all Shar Pei in the U.S. and throughout the world share the same founding dogs, heavily due to some great early inbreeding, it’s in almost every line. I love the coat, I’m sure bearcoatpei might agree on its soft/ petting friendly texture, but the current standards hate it and so do the breeders. It’s not like the two dogs aren’t from the same country, share the same wrinkles (even under all that Chow fluff) and excessive skin. This is especially noticeable if you put a meat mouth bear coat or brush coat Pei next to a smooth or shaven Chow. They also share all the same major health problems, with the exception of FSF in Pei. The temperaments are both spitzy but still different, that’s why I have a bear coat Pei and not a smooth Chow.
Personally I’d love to see a few good outcrosses done in both breeds, actually several of my favorites, to aim for better genetics, lower COI, less wrinkles, less abundant skin, and moderate features all over the dogs (larger ear canals, no tight tail curls, good eyes, skin, etc.) One can dream.
Ooo! I’m so excited that someone else here has a bearcoat! What colour is he/she? What lead you to getting a bearcoat? I do think the temperaments of both breeds are very similar, but shar-pei tend to be more energetic, outgoing and more likely to do as you ask. And ditto with the hopes for improved genetic health. I’m not a huge fan of overly wrinkled shar-pei or the way that chows have become so extreme in type with heavy bone and deep wrinkling. I just hope the test for FSF turn out to be bullet proof, but only time will tell on that and then it’s getting breeders to use it.
The litter brother, according to Matgo Law, of his foundation female Down Home’s Anne Revival was a bearcoat, but that was because Annie’s grandmother was a dog called Jones Chow Chow, who was exactly what her name suggested. I’ve always suspected that shar-pei are an offshoot of chows rather than being thousands of years old and used to debate this with my friend who introduced me to the breed who wasn’t as keen on the hypothesis. And it’s also an open secret that at least one smooth chow found it’s way into the bloodlines when in the USA.
I’ve had all three coat types of shar-pei and a chow, (every single one a rescue or second hand) but bearcoats remain my favourite for many reasons. My current bear’s coat is gorgeously soft and my first one was harsher in coat as her guard hairs were thicker, but still very cuddly soft. Well, apart from when the odd stray guard hair that would weave it’s way into my socks and then my feet – ouchy! Bearcoats never look motheaten or bald, they don’t have a body odour, rarely need bathing as the coat isn’t oily, are ultra easy to keep groomed as they don’t mat and don’t prickle you when you have a cuddle – what’s not to like? Have you ever felt a chow’s coat who’s been clipped right down? Apart from not having the pointed tips due to the haircut, they feel bristly like a shar-pei.
I’ve noticed that as chows have become extremely rare here in the UK and the shar-pei have boomed in popularity, the question has gone from “Is that a chow?” to “Is that part shar-pei?” Mind you the usual comments are “That dog looks like a lion!”
Bearcoatpei, send me a PM on the SharPei forums under Canusursa12 if you are on there, I would love to talk more to a fellow bear coated owner, maybe share pictures and tell stories. I don’t want to clog up Retrievers thread with us going back and forth. : ) I don’t have an account with WordPress yet to get a hold of you on here. Also trying to join the Facebook closed group of our breed. Excited!
This is RSCollies as my new account beatcoatpei.
Actually I believe there`s some Papillon in the mix that created long haired dachshunds, and goodness knows what else.
Elizabeth
I simply love this post. It makes so much sense. And it leaves biases out all together. Kudos to the writer
OMG, yet another post from you that nails it for me! I’m tired of shows and statements about deciding what BREED is best for a certain person or lifestyle! Yes, that does get into the “tendency” arena, sure. But what isn’t being explained is that with all the various demands of people for dogs, there are usually all sorts of goals of breeders for EVERY breed, and within the dogs bred for those goals, individual personalities abound.
People always figure again and again that a golden or lab would be a perfect choice for a family. They picture an obedient, easy keeper that loves everyone! Even after the debut of Marley and Me, this didn’t really wane. No one even stopped to ask what line Marley was from. Many are suprised to find themselves with an energy-ball that gets obnoxious and stays that way for at least two years. I’ve known Goldens that were suprisingly good protectors, much to the dismay of people who weren’t looking for that.
Dogs 101 said Australian kelpies are not good for apartments. Well, quite often true, but then again, many are doing well in suburban and even urban environments. With exercise and games yes, but then again, loads of them, even working line ones, sleep a lot more than you would expect. Many good breeders look for this; they still prize the CALM workers. My agility instructor frequently posts pics on FB of her two working kelpies snoozing much of the day away in their X pens when she takes them to work. They aren’t miserable, unhealthy animals in the least. They are certainly NOT neglected. They aren’t elderly either, nor sick.
As for my dog, I spoke to the former owner about my expectations. I got an INDIVIDUAL that worked for my life. I got what I asked for.
You can find applicable individuals for a life in nearly every breed, if you know what you want, and are willing to wait for it. Variability abounds.
I live in a semi-urban environment with several dog parks and dog-friendly areas; and I see a huge number of not only Labradors and Golden Retrievers (usually from pet/show lines), but Australian Shepherds and Australian Cattle Dogs. They all seem to be healthy and well exercised. I would not personally get either of the “Australian” breeds (I have a lazy English Cocker), given that I’m not a particularly athletic person, but the people I see seem to be out in all weather with their dogs off-leash…
LOL! I don’t blame you but I’m not the most athletic person either. Many is dog I’ve seen of an active breed, being owned, bred or shown by the very overweight, out of shape, sometimes even physically disabled/challenged…not that the last one really compares, but the idea is, many active breeds are owned by people who don’t or cannot do a lot of biking, jogging, etc.
And yet a lot of these dogs are happy because the owners find a way to get their dog activity and make it work. Granted it helps a LOT to be able to at least take a long hike with your dog, but since it’s ultimately what exercise the DOG gets for the dog to be happy, anything you can do can make a difference.
I met a breeder who was obese and had some difficulty walking with a young rhodesian ridgeback. She used a golf cart to have her dog jog 8 miles a day.
Another guy I knew got creative, however unsafe this might have been, and had his spunky labrador chase his truck!
Not that I’d encourage that, but you get the drift. Really it’s about what the owner is willing to do, and how much time he or she is able to put in.
I’ve been out in a number of rainy days, even a few stormy ones, for my dog. He’ll play outside with thunder and lightning while the other dogs are bolting for the cars at the first crackle in the skies. And he’s not a courageous animal by any means. He’s also content to stay inside when it’s that bad out, but it’s quite an experience to be out with one’s dog in that weather; dark gray, wind whipping, being drenched and putting it out of your head, focusing on the creature in front of you, who in turn thinks of nothing but this moment of interaction he’s been waiting for. I can’t think of another word for it right now except “spiritual”, and I’m an atheist!
Roading. Lots of people do this with their coonhounds. Pavel’s breeder does this with his dogs before hunting season starts.
I’m with you on the being out in the rain with the dogs. There’s something incredibly enjoyable about being out there, hood up against the worst of it, just the two of you out in the wind and rain. Living in just that moment with every step, the two of you in harmony with each other and the elements. I never think twice about the weather when I take the TM out as when you’ve gotta go, you’ve gotta go.
Unless you have a shar-pei who would rather hold it than go out in the rain. My first bearcoat hated the rain so much that she could predict when it was going to rain when we were out on a walk. She’d look up at the sky, look at me with a disgusted expression and turn for home. We rarely got so much as a few drops of rain before being nice and dry in the house. She was a funny one that dog – one in a million.
My dog does not care to spend more than 25 minutes in the rain, unless it is a very light rain. There have been so many times when I would be plodding onward, determined to give us both the exercise, and His Majesty the Dog would be heading for the park gate, giving me an indignant look when I failed to walk in his direction…He’s fine in the snow for almost any length of time, though.
For some reason, snow seems to be a big hit with most dogs. Even the aforementioned rain predictor loved pouncing about in the snow after the first time she woke up to the back yard being covered in this strange white stuff. She gave me a “what is the meaning of this?” look as if it was my doing, saw her mum pottering about and braved it on her tippy toes. Then after that it was “wheeeee!” as she boinged about in every bit of untrodden snow she could find.
Only one factor counts for me. If i am hiking on a trail with my boy and if I see an unleashed Golden or Lab coming towards me, I have no qualms in releasing my boy too. But if I see an unleashed GSD or a rottie or even a doberman, shivers run through my spines, although the dogs may not be aggressive.
Goldens and Labs look placid and calm, so very biddable all the time. I could get shock of my life one day, but I am not going to worry about that day now.
My own reaction to oncoming off-leash dogs depends on their body language and how attentive their owner is. There are many “Pit Bull” type dogs where in my area; and most of them are fine with my dog, but I have to watch out because they’re so high-spirited, and muscled like rocks, that they can easily (and have) knock me down while they’re playing. Ditto Boxers and some Labs. As long as there’s a nearby fence or tree for me to brace against, I don’t worry. Unless, of course, the oncoming dog is indicating that he’s going to initiate aggression towards my dog (which has never been done by a Doberman or a Rottie or a GSD; and the only Pit Bull who so much as snapped at my dog was an irritable 11-year-old female who’s owner had her on a fairly tight leash).
If I had a nickel for every “rednose” “pit bull” whose nose is actually black…
Oh how I despise the generalizations of all dog breeds,they knew just one poor quality dog of a breed,or even just read about it and think they must all be like that. They just cant imagine otherwise,only their dog or dogs of choice are real dogs!
It’s all about what a dog is bred for, Dogs are only capable of one or two jobs in their eyes. A Rottweiler or Shepherd couldn’t possibly hunt could they? As well as a hound would be useless accept for hunting.
Yes I heard of Rottweilers being used before to hunt ducks and catch boar. It’s definitely uncommon but it’s not impossible.
It all depends on the breeding,nurturing,training and of course the individual.
Even if you get two dogs from the same litter,and treat them the same. One will likely end up a better working/sporting dog then the other. It also means the dog may not have the stereotypical temperament of the breed that the person desires.
I had to change my views of Goldens as well,I considered them soft and low driven dogs compared to Labradors,but this blog helped me to see otherwise.
Working Golden retrievers do still exist!
Enjoyed this post. I have a Lab mix and my parents have had goldens for about 30 years. Each dog is an individual, that’s for sure. I try never to say things like, “Get a Lab. They are good family dogs” or “goldens are so sweet.” These are generalizations.
Had to laugh after reading this post (several days late). We have two female Labs, one black mix (Maybe with Mastiff, owners didn’t know?) and one of the Golden Labs (Lab and Golden Retreiver). The black is calm, easy to get along with, and a swimming fool, don’t show her any water! She also has a stick/ball fixation. The golden is a big idiot, though smart in some ways, and overly lovey. She was a pet someone bought and then got too big to take care of, I think. The yellow loves to run and will do so happily for as long as possible. They are both sweet girls, but a little intimidating to strangers and I have to watch them. They are friends with anyone who comes in the yard and the meter readers do bring treats! We had one other lab years ago, the absolutely most nuerotic dog I ever had, but her mother was a Dalmation!