This is a South Carolina golden retriever:
You very rarely see one that is this curly.
There are actually two sources for this type of coat in golden retriever. One is the Tweed water dog or Tweed water spaniel, which was sort of a regional type of “unrefined” curly-coated retriever that was endemic to the Scottish Borders and Northumberland.
The other is the actual refined show curly, and at least one of the breed’s very prolific sires had a well-known show curly ancestor.
This golden retriever is probably the closest thing we’ll ever see of a modern-day Tweed water dog.
This dog even has the “conical” head shape that early writes mentioned the breed having.
http://www.buyadoodle.net/goldendoodlecoatchangespart2.html Another really curly coated one.
I came across a very curly coated Golden at a dog park. The owner said he bought his dog from a breeder and that it is an AKC registered Golden Retriever. He was as curly as the one pictured above. Looked and acted like a Golden, just had a curly coat.
This particular type of coat is recessive, which is why if you breed a curly-coated retriever to any other kind of retriever, it won’t have the coat. Which is also one reason why curly-coats were separated from the other retrievers much earlier on. The curly has that older St. John’s water dog temperament, which allows for a more protective dog than the nice golden retrievers that don’t even bark when someone comes to the door.
The vast majority of goldens, at least the ones I see, are true wavy coats. The straight-coated ones are almost entirely restricted to the bench ines, though there are straight coated ones in the working lines too. The wavy coat, I think, is dominant, so it’s inherited in any entirely different way from this curly coat.
Looks like a Yellow Flattie got slapped with a Poodle and sprinkled with Cinnamon. Awesome.
Retrieverman please cite your references for saying that the CCR that influenced the Curled coat in the Golden was “The other is the actual refined show curly, and at least one of the breed’s very prolific sires had a well-known show curly ancestor” the CCR has been and still is used as a retrieving gundog in the UK, Europe, USA, NZ and Aust. Yes there are some which shoe, some do both conformation and retrieving. One CCR ancestor which was shown does not mean it didn’t retrieve also, I assume you know that conformation shows came about to exhibit Gundogs when they weren’t retrieving shot game and that the first recognised Retriever was the CCR.
Your statement “The curly has that older St. John’s water dog temperament, which allows for a more protective dog than the nice golden retrievers that don’t even bark when someone comes to the door.” is not true of Curlies either. Is opinionated and not based on fact. Yes some may bark to announce visitors (usually if strangers) in comparison many Goldens today have barking issues including a high incidence of separation anxiety issues and continual barking (a PHD research study is being conducted in Australia regarding this temperament issue). I have and have had 6 generations of CCRs and do not find their temperament to be overly protective in any way. Most will only announce a visitor to my acreage, when we lived in the city they didn’t even do they just stretched and wagged their tail and whined if it was someone they knew. Maybe it is a nurture issue in some lines? My expensive knowledge of the CCR finds your statements foundered and somewhat offensive.
You’re just looking to be offended.
What I mean is that the curly-coated retriever is just a vestige of what was once there before it became a show dog. There were plenty of curly-coated retrievers that existed before, which were St. John’s water dog/water spaniel crosses. The Tweed water dog is one of these rougher forms of curly.
My extensive knowledge of golden retrievers tells me they are crap as watch dogs. Half of them don’t even bark when a person comes to the door. Curly-coated retrievers are good guard dogs, as are Chesapeake Bays.
I didn’t say that people are not using curly-coated retrievers. I’m just saying that as they exist right now is just a vestige of what they once were.
When you see the word’s Northern Irish water spaniel or Tweed water spaniel, think something like a very rough variant of the curly-coated retriever.
People see offense in anything these days.
Over the past 50 years or so, I have seen a few (4-5) Goldens with this sort of curly coat. One, a female of old Midwestern US lines,, did not produce it in any of her offspring. Another, an import of British field breeding, didn’t either, as far as I know. The curly Golden coat differs from that of the modern Curly-coated Retriever in that the Golden has an undercoat; most modern Curlies don’t. The Golden also has a bit more feathering.
The texture and feel of the curly Golden (at least the ones I’ve observed) is very like that of the Chesapeake, and is very dense and protective. Very unlike the poodle-type coats that are soft and without undercoat.
Early on in retriever history, it was not uncommon for several coat types (and colors) to be seen in a single litter. In the early years of Kennel Club registry, they were all registered simply as “Retrievers”. Labradors were defined in 1903, the “Yellow or Golden” separated from the “Wavy or Flat-coated” a few years later. As late as 1949 these were listed as “varieties” of Retriever in official KC (UK) publications.
I think the actual genetic mechanism is the same though in curlies and goldens, because this trait would be far more common in goldens if it were dominant, as the wavy coat is, and thus, it may be that the only two breeds with it are goldens and curlies. The undercoat thing is also what separated goldens and old wavies from modern flat-coats, which may have been a very bad thing for flat-coats in the long run.
Yes, I’d expect that to be so; the truly curly coat does appear to follow the recessive pattern of inheritance. As to undercoat, the present Flat-coat breed standard doesn’t even mention undercoat. I asked a knowledgeable FCR person about that, she said that it wasn’t a matter of importance as long as the main coat was correct. Interesting.
See how they do in cold water.
LOL.
That actually cannot help flat-coats in North America because waterfowl season are during the coldest parts of the year, and if a dog isn’t very cold water tolerant it’s not going to be of much use.
I’ve not seen a single study on curly-coated retriever coat, but it’s clearly very different from all the other coats we have.
And given the relatively few numbers of purebred Curlies, that may be why that sort of coat is not included in the studies (of coat types specifically, or canine genome in general). I have a number of 19th century photographs of retriever-type dogs with longish coats ranging from straight through wavy through very curly, but distinctly longer than the modern Curly-coat. A CCR person I asked about the last sort, dismissed them as “old-type curlies”– what she meant by that, she did not explain but perhaps they were simply the occurrence of the curlycoat factor in the longer-coated (feathered) old-fashioned wavy-coated retriever.
MRS many CCR are trimmed if the coat is allowed to grow naturally there can be a lot of feathering. The Tail feathering can be 5 cm long. In all the areas you find feathering on the longer coated breeds you will get feathering on a CCR. Yes the numbers of CCR are relatively few but remember they started with a larger genetic base as when the split happened in 1889 they were a very popular breed and show split to have CCR and retrievers other shows this majority. When the stud book closed the genetic base for many dogs was quite small and the Golden was no exception I’d say. This could be investigated to see how broad the genepool actually is. Numbers do not mean genetic diversity. Breeding for coat colour is just as genetically restrictive as breeding for coat type in my opinion.
The reason why the breed got sequestered off earlier than the rest is the coat is almost impossible to breed for if you’re including smooth and traditional long-coated dogs in the mix. It’s also why people think they are very closely related to Chesapeakes. Chesapeakes were separated from the rest of retrieverdom by the Atlantic Ocean. The ocean for the curly-coated retriever was its coat.
There is also a class aspect to all of this that rarely gets mentioned. Curlies were either owned by keepers or poachers for the most part. The dogs often ratted, which is why there were so many accounts of them being hard-mouthed. The rougher forms of curly, including the Tweed water spaniel or Tweed water dog, were not black, and there was a strong class bias against “ordinary brown retrievers.” A brown or yellow retriever would be camouflaged, which means that poacher could hide it more easily in the reeds and corn than a black one. I think that is the real reason for the tradition of black retrievers in the UK.
Simple Mendelian inheritance factor account for the dominance of Black CCRs and other retrievers. Before inheritance was properly understood and even afterwards people thought a recessive colour type was less desirable. These dogs were valued by hunters and poachers of course. With the Australian Murray River Retriever they are solely liver/brown. If crossed to a black CCR then the black is dominant (unless the Black parent is liver recessive). then you will get both. Yes I do agree that those that were liver (in CCR) were preferred as Retrieving dogs. The hard mouth is a fallacy and is perpetuated by non-Curly devotees.. I have never experienced or known a CCR with hard mouth and I do rough shooting and Retrieving Trialling with my dogs (over 6 generations). CCRs are a unique breed and poor training (i.e. old dominance methods) could be accountable for some of these rumors in my opinion. Positive operant conditioning will help all dogs learn what is wanted and will refine natural instinct.
I don’t know if it was a fallacy 100 years ago though.
These dogs were often used to rat, and that almost always can give a hard mouth. These were the dogs that keepers or poachers might have, and a keeper needed good ratting dog.
A golden retriever can become hardmouthed if it rats.
I’m actually starting to question whether it’s all that ethical for a retriever not to kill wounded game before bringing it. I’m not saying that the dog should dismember it, but I’m beginning to wonder if it’s all that humane to let the last few seconds of a bird’s life be being run down by a predator and carried back alive. Wouldn’t it be more ethical to let the dog kill the bird and bring it back?
My first Golden got beaten on by an angry drake one time. After that, with a live bird, he would press down just enough to suffocate it. Didn’t even leave a mark, just wouldn’t let it breathe. This was the same dog that retrieved our parakeet unharmed when it escaped from its cage.
The only reason I mentioned the (comparatively small) numbers of present-day CCRs is that breeds of small population are so often omitted from general genomic studies. Unfortunately it is not possible to do DNA studies on dogs of the 19th Century– although it sure could be interesting!
As to the golden’s population base, a compilation of all KC (UK) registrations 1900 – 1950 shows a rather high percentage of dogs with unregistered parents. Some likely were themselves merely unregistered Goldens, others could well have been interbred, crossbreed, or quite indeterminate ancestry.
Goldens do carry genetic factors for a variety of different coat colors and patterns, but the presence of homozygous ee factor prevents expression of dark (black or brown/liver) pigment in the hair. Cross-breeding to introduce E can result in solid black, black-and-tan, sable of varying patterns in the offspring. The point being, that even they are all “golden”, there are actually more color factors present than might appear to be.
For that reason, golden retrievers come in more colors than many of the other retrievers. It’s like the yellow coat puts an invisibility cloak over them, and many dogs are yellows masking brindles, sables, and black and tans. Most are dominant black dogs.
Oh my God. I’ve had a CCR, but she was black.;)
Hi! What about labradors? I noticed you mentioned this type of curly coat is only a trait that is found in goldens and culrly-coats among retrievers, but there a some labradors also. I have a bitch with a curly coat and her brother was the same. The bitch has had three litters and has one pup with the similar kind of coat. I have seen some other culy labradors also but only among FT-labradors.
There are also Tweed water dogs in Labrador retrievers. I don’t know if any official curlies were ever crossed into Labradors.
John Labrador had that sort of coat, too: http://retriver.cz/sekce/lr_19_20stol.htm
The dog named Johnnie was owned by Bond Moore, who was the fellow who essentially created the wavy-coated retriever as a show dog. Many of his dogs were pure St. John’s water dogs with long hair.
Coats can be found in varying degrees of wave or curl, from slightly wavy but flat-lying, through rough wavy, to soft curl to the very tight curl sought in Curly-coated Retrievers (what used to be called a “nigger curl”. Desciptive, if not PC! “Curl”, to me, is when the hair forms ringlets, or wouldifitwere long enough.
The ideal tight curl type in the CCR is astrakhan like- which is the tight flat laying corkscrew curls. It’s easier to use the correct non-offensive terminology to describe any curl of similar type thus.
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