The Tweed water spaniel was said to be different from the other varieties of water spaniel. It had a short coat that was quite wavy. All of the others had much longer coats, and Irish or Shannon water spaniel was quite long-haired. (This breed would become the modern Irish water spaniel or “Irish retriever”).
This difference from the other water spaniels is believed to be the result of the breed originated from a cross between an English water spaniel the and St. John’s water dog. This cross would give the dog a much more retriever-like appearance, because the St. Johns water dog or old type Newfoundland is the ancestor of all the retrievers.
The source for this account of the breed’s history comes from an early home veterinary manual. The book itself is mainly about horses. After all horses were the main source of transport during the nineteenth century, and veterinary medicine was primarily about treating horses. Dogs were secondary animals in that regard.
The book in question is the The Complete Farrier and British Sportsman (1816). The author, Richard Lawrence, includes a section on dogs at the end of the book. In this section, he has descriptions and treatises on all sorts of different dogs, including their histories. The author also groups dog breeds, includng two sections on the water spaniels and water dogs (early retrievers). The Tweed water spaniel is categorized with the water dogs, not the water spaniels.
He writes that near the town of Berwick-upon-Tweed, the local water dogs had been crossed with Newfoundlands (meaning St. John’s Water dogs). this cross had greatly strengthened the dogs. The dogs are used to hunt along the rugged and rocky coast, and the dogs had developed into tough water dogs that were still quite biddable. The were used to retrieve shot game and may have been also used to retrieve salmon nets. It is little wonder that the First Baron Tweedmouth used this dog as one of the foundations of his breeding program.
If this account is accurate, then the Tweed water spaniel should probably have been classified as a retriever rather than a water spaniel. The only depiction of the dog can be found below:
There are few bad descriptions of the dogs that have appeared over the years, which claimed that they had thick, dropping lips and houndy ears, but my guess is that this comes from people who had never seen one. The dog in this depiction is mid-liver in color. It appears to have a brown nose and light colored eyes. However, because it is a portrait, the dog could just as easily be a reddish colored with the brown skin pigment gene. These dogs were always brownish, reddish, or yellow in color. It does bare some resemblance to the Murray River curly-coated retriever.
One other account of the breed also referred to this breed as a water dog. A flat-coated retriever authority (Mr. Stanely O’Neill) described a “water dog” from the Tweed to Elma Stonex. This dog was helping fisherman net salmon, and the dog was described as being “retrieverish,” not at all like a water spaniel. Hauling nets was a job that some water spaniels may have done, but it is said this profession the raison d’être for the St. John’s water dog.
Perhaps because these dogs were so commonly owned by “laborious classes” (as Lawrence calls them) that no one wished to dignify them with the name retriever.
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Lawrence also has an interesting theory about the origins of the “water dogs” (early retrievers). He claims that dogs are cross between the Greenland dog and the water spaniel. He does not mistake a Greenland dog for a Newfoundland (St. John’s water dog) either. In the beginning of his section on dogs, Lawrence describes a Greenland dog as basically what we would call a Greenland dog today. It is the big, hauling spitz-type breed from Greenland!
I don’t know where he got this story to tell you the truth. It is the first and only mention of this type of dog in the ancestry of retrievers, although I admit that it is possible in the ancestry of the St. John’s water dog. The North American Arctic has several different types of these big sled dogs, which are also used for hunting and for protecting Inuit from polar bears. These dogs were sometimes given the blanket name of “Greenland dog,” even if they were of Canadian ancestry. Dogs of this type did not occur on the island of Newfoundland, but one does occur in Labrador, which is now called the Labrador Husky. It makes sense that some of these dogs could have been part of the ancestral stock that made up the St. John’s water dog, because the dogs were required to swim in absolutely frigid water. It could be the origin of the retriever’s unbelievably thick coat, comes out in great clumps twice a year during the shedding season. They were also required to haul things, and these big Arctic dogs were excellent at hauling. The dogs probably would have been better equipped to survive the Spartan conditions in the early English settlements at Newfoundland.
I do know that that in Helen Thayer’s book Polar Dream, she purchases a “polar bear dog” from some Inuit. The dog accompanies her to the magnetic North Pole, protecting her from polar bears. Thayer succeeds in becoming the first woman to reach the magnetic North Pole, because of “Charlie.” Charlie later accompanies Thayer and her husband on an expedition in the Yukon to observe wolf packs. Charlie is able to make the wolves feel calm around people, allowing Thayer and her husband a chance to watch them. The interesting thing about Charlie, though, is that he is a mixture of Canadian Eskimo Dog (Qimmiq) and Newfoundland.
A dog like this could be one of the many ancestors of St. John’s water dog. One can find painting of a St. John’s Water dog in one of Bruce Fogle’s books that had erect ears and a parti-colored coat, but other than that, I still find it a bit of a reach to say that there are Inuit dogs in the ancestry of the retrievers and Newfoundlands.
Could a dog like this be a retriever ancestor?
Thank you for posting me the link to that article of yours about the spaniels / arctic blood in lab breed. Don’t know why I can’t find the total list of the retrieverman blog writings anywhere here??
What comes to the spaniel blood, I wonder what does the AKC mean by “after being crossed with setters, Spaniels – – – ” (the chapter taken from the AKC website / Meet the breeds)
” A Look Back.
Labrador Retrievers, originally from Newfoundland, were initially used in work alongside fisherman, helping to pull in nets and catch fish that escaped from fishing lines. After being crossed with Setters, Spaniels and other Retrievers, the Labrador Retriever honed its skills as a true retriever. From this point in the breed’s history, “Labs,” as they are affectionately called, were bred primarily to perform as an efficient retriever of game, with a stable temperament suitable for a variety of activities beyond hunting.”
Of course it’s a very abridged description of the history of many hundred of years..
But about the most newest “spaniel effect”: through breeding with other retrievers, lab got some “fresh” spaniel blood.
Still wonder if the “dear lords” in England put some more spaniel genes (and setters’, too, as the text seem to suggest).
The best thing to do is just google them. Check out my stuff on the St. John’s water dog, if you want to get to the root of it.
I have a series on Golden retriever history and how retrievers split into various breeds, which you might find interesting.
The Labrador has a very complicated history. Its name comes from the Cao de Castro Laboreiro, which got misinterpreted as “Labrador.” The St. John’s water dogs were very much like Labs. There is at least one in this piece (the dog named Albert): http://archives.cbc.ca/arts_entertainment/literature/clips/14934/
http://happydoggieblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/stjohns1.jpg (Those are the last two of the original St. John’s water dog).
The dogs are from Newfoundland, and whenever you see mention of the word “Newfoundland” in retriever history books that’s, what they mean. The big, long-haired Newfoundland existed at this time and did play some role in the retrievers, but it was mostly a black and white dog during the nineteenth century.
… well, I guess, it is a quite a long story that one, too..
The modern Labrador has a lot of flat-coated retriever in it. Flat-coats were derived from the St. John’s water dog crossed with setters and the odd collie or water spaniel. They were actually the top trial dog in the early years of retrievers, where they were called wavy-coats. The wavy-coats had Irish setter in them, and every once in a while, they would have a reddish puppy. If crossed with a Tweed water spaniel, they would have yellow puppies. These would found the golden retriever breed.
Newfoundland tried to promote sheep-grazing to diversify its economy and heavy taxes were placed on dogs. As a result, it was no longer economically viable to keep the dogs. Tons of them were exported to England, where they were bred with retrievers. The Earls of Malmebury had a kept a smooth-coated line of Newfoundland imports, which were given to the Dukes of Buccleuch. These dogs were then bred to these imports to found the modern Labrador. The flat-coats (which included goldens and dogs carrying the gene for the gold color) were interbred into the line to make them better competition dogs.
Just use google to find my stuff. I started writing these histories without categorizing them, and by the time I’d written 50 of them, it was too late do so.
Today’s Buccleuch – line shows to me almost nothin “mastiff-type” – outlook in their dogs (seen them only in the few pics). So they must have chosen their dogs very carefully to breed that light gun dog – type. In today’s labs (and goldens, too) you see REALLY huge massive-types of dogs, looking nearly more like (the old) rotweilers, than labs.
So I’ve been thinking, many of the present labs carrie the genes of the bigger St John’s Dog (but The Buccheleurs don’t).
You have this intresting blog in which you dig peepingholes in history of dogs. And plus that, you were so kind for sending me “the Albert – video”. St John’s Dogs seemed to be very charming, intelligent dogs, and I got the feeling of some “talkative” abilities like collies and other shepard-types do have.
The St. John’s water dog wasn’t that big– it was Labrador-sized. It’s not the same dog that we call the Newfoundland today.
Why did they get lighter in build? From interbreeding with flat-coats. Also, the retriever trials wanted a lighter-built dog.
About the naming of the lab, as many did during the whole 1800-century, and the creating the proper breed (via kennelclubs)…
I think, it was a process analogious to a proselytizeing a nation, in a miniathyre snapshot.
The original word (the root “lavadore” or what so ever) was used to describe the first fishers and their working, and also there may have been packs of these Cao de Castro Laboreiro- dogs.
These were the hard working people, not wealthy. When England and France conquer the land, they may have probably looked a bit down these fishermen like: “Workers and their working dogs”. But anyway they couldn’t resist from admireing them at the same time. That’s why they adopted the name. Even the part of the sea was named after a portugese – not a typical worker, but anyway.
All the original people and dogs in the place have been forgotten, we have only the name, just like Eco wrote, that’s so true in this particular case.