Sweep probably looked a lot like this modern flat-coat.
One of the dogs in the Guisachan kennel records is a dog named “Sweep.” Sweep is a black dog, and his name refers to the chimney sweeps who known from being covered in soot through the occupation. Sweep sired a few of the Guisachan litters, firmly establishing the black skin pigment.
Now, there is some question as to what his breed was. Country Life published an article about the origin of golden retrievers in 1952. The GRCA has posted the article here.
(The article shows how spurious the story about the bloodhound cross in golden retrievers really is. That loose leaf of paper was actually lost, which makes absolutely no sense. The records on the pedigrees of the Guisachan dogs were really complete. It seems to me that they used the goldens as bloodhounds, tracking blood spoor from shot stag, and they began to say things like “This dog can scent like a bloodhound.” Or maybe the dogs picked up on shot grouse the fell deep within the recesses of heather, and the dogs’ noses were compared with those of bloodhounds. The only person who remembers the bloodhound cross is Lord Ilchester, who also released the records. However, this cross happened when he was a very young child, and it is possible that he just got confused. These sorts of things happen to me all the time. To be honest with you, the worst possible cross I can think of in breeding a strain of retriever is to add a slow-moving, intractable dog like a bloodhound to the bloodline. I’ve never seen very good evidence of the cross, so I will forever remain skeptical.)
In the article, there is mention of Labradors being used in the cross. Actually, this is somewhat inaccurate, because “Labs” as we know them today did not exist in large numbers in Britain. There were St. John’s water dogs, which were used as an outcross in the wavy-coated retriever and the others. The dog called Zelstone was probably a half or full St. John’s water dog. “Tracer,” his son, was bred into the Tweedmouth line. Zelstone and his son most definitely had long hair.
But the case of Sweep is interesting. He is said to have had a “smooth” coat. That could mean that he had short-coat like the St. John’s water dogs that were used in Newfoundland and on the Earls of Malmesbury’s estates. These dogs would eventually form the basis for the breed we know as the Labrador retriever today, when the Dukes of Buccleuch took imported dogs from Newfoundland and the Malmesbury dogs and “improved them” into a line of retrievers.
His owner, Montague Guest, was a political figure in the Liberal Party, and the Guest family was an important industrial family in Wales and Shropshire. The Tweedmouth strain is very much associated with Dudley Marjoribanks’s political connections, which are all closely tied to the Liberal Party. The Malmesbury and Buccleuch dogs, however, were tied to political figures in the Conservative Party. So it seems unlikely that Sweep is one of those dogs.
However, he could have been an imported St. John’s water dog from another source. The dogs were imported into Britain in a rather sporadic matter, so it is possible that one got into the hands of Montague Guest.
But I have another theory. Around this time, there were people breeding the wave out of the wavy-coated retriever. Some retriever people preferred as little wave as possible in the dogs. It is from this breeding trend that the wavy-coat became the flat-coat.
I think the smooth coat mentioned for Sweep because his coat was not wavy. It was lying flat against his body, and it was “smooth” in that sense. From my reading of flat-coat history, Sweep is counted as a flat-coat or wavy-coat, not a Labrador or St. John’s water dog.
Sweep was simply a flat-coated dog at a time when most dogs of his stock were wavy-coated.
Interestingly, only goldens retain the wavy coat. It is possible to have some wave to a flat-coat, but in goldens, there are really wavy dogs. As the flat-coat and golden developed, the flat-coat had the waviness nearly bred out of them. While goldens did have some of their waviness reduced, it was never bred out of them.
So I think Sweep was a way-coat without the wave.
Any idea who that flat-coat is?
I have no idea. It’s the photo for the wikipedia entry for flat-coated retriever. It was submitted by someone named Gunandreassen.
Nice conformation, though.
Gunn Andreassen owns this kennel in Norway: http://www.arminzera.no/
This may be the same dog: http://www.arminzera.no/Isak.php
Funny thing, lots of the Flatties in the show ring I’ve seen have more wavy coats than flat. Sort of making them a misnomer. I guess we need to thank the judges for not really knowing the difference or we would see more selective breeding for a true Flat Coat that would hurt the breeding population even more.
But I don’t think there are many flat-coats that have so much wave to their coats that it approaches curliness: http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/culham-brass.jpg Like Culham Brass here.
“Shuttle” has a lot of wave to her coat, too. In goldens, this an accepted coat, in addition to the very straight one.
The standard allows for a bit of wave, and actually requires it to have sufficient texture.
“Coat is of moderate length, density and fullness, with a high lustre. The ideal coat is straight and flat lying. A slight waviness is permissible but the coat is not curly, wooly, short, silky or fluffy. The Flat-Coat is a working retriever and the coat must provide protection from all types of weather, water and ground cover. This requires a coat of sufficient texture, length and fullness to allow for adequate insulation. When the dog is in full coat the ears, front, chest, back of forelegs, thighs and underside of tail are thickly feathered without being bushy, stringy or silky. Mane of longer heavier coat on the neck extending over the withers and shoulders is considered typical, especially in the male dog, and can cause the neck to appear thicker and the withers higher, sometimes causing the appearance of a dip behind the withers. Since the Flat-Coat is a hunting retriever, the feathering is not excessively long. Trimming-The Flat-Coat is shown with as natural a coat as possible and must not be penalized for lack of trimming, as long as the coat is clean and well brushed. Tidying of ears, feet, underline and tip of tail is acceptable. Whiskers serve a specific function and it is preferred that they not be trimmed. Shaving or barbering of the head, neck or body coat must be severely penalized.”
I love that the standard addresses function as often as it does.
I’m not talking about just some wave in the coat. In goldens, you run into dogs that are just totally curled.
http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/culham-brass.jpg That’s one of the foundation goldens from the Culham line.
“Shuttle,” the dog in the header, has a lot of waviness to her coat.
You’d be hard pressed to find a flat-coat with a coat like this dog (warning: music): http://www.goldmali.co.uk/dandy.html
Off the top of my head, I’d guess about 1/2 my Flatcoats have been wavy/curly/whatever and 1/2 straight.
Sweep has been a popular Flatcoat name over the years, judging from pedigrees.
It may even be the same dog. The Tweedmouth strain actually has some of the top black wavy/flat coat dogs of its time in it.
I’ve never seen a flat-coat as wavy as really wavy golden, like this one: http://www.goldmali.co.uk/dandy.html (there is music on this site, so turn the speakers off if you don’t want to hear it).
Flatcoats can have waves in their coats. They can have cowlicks, as well. As flattie-n-Labbie mentioned, slight waves are allowed in the breed standard. Also, flatcoats that spend crate time after bathing or swimming have more than usual waves in their coat. It’s sort of like washing your hair, then immediately donning a hat or heading to bed with damp hair.
You’re right about the amount of wave in goldens being greater (in the waviest/curliest examples) than in flatcoats.
BTW, the fcr in your example photo has had extensive barbering done to his neck. That’s something you see in Europe a lot, but is frowned upon in the US.
I’m so used to seeing really wavy goldens, that I don’t think of the little waves on flat-coats as being wavy.
That dog is one of the last Yeo dogs bred by Mrs. Sawtell. The Yeos were stubbornly bred to be darker in color than the typical British show golden.
Yeah, he’s trimmed up the way British goldens are.
He’s an interesting dog. He retrieves. He does therapy work, but his hips are terrible. His owner now focuses on Malinois, because she can’t find a golden with dark color, good British conformation, and good hips.
I thought you were talking about this dog, the really wavy golden: http://www.goldmali.co.uk/dandy.html
His rough is also heavily trimmed.
Hi Patti–I was wondering why that flat-coat looked disproportionate! Such a beautiful body, but I kept looking and looking and couldnt’ figure out why he seemed to have such an itty-bitty head, but then I looked at his head and it wasnt’ really small, but I still knew there was something I was missing… Glad we don’t do that “barbering” here.
Nobody’s mentioned “spay coat”–that’ll put some wave in the flat coat.
Norwegian dog– small head.
Look at photos of many flatcoats that are shown in Norway, Finland, Switzerland, and you’ll see a lot of barbering in the neck down to the shoulders. It’s similar to the way that English Setters are shown in this country. It makes the dog look like they have a long neck, and their prow is accentuated.
Yeah, they do exactly the same thing to show goldens. However, I’ve seen some Scandinavian flat-coats that have really narrow heads without a stop.
Now I’m confused. Does it actually have a small head? Or is an illusion from the trimming of the neck?
There’s a tendency to breed for a smaller head in Scandinavian lines of flat-coat and to breed for a wedge shaped head.
Huh–interesting. I think the shape of the head on that dog and the heads on the other dogs on the breeder’s site look like the flat-coats I see most often (including my own), but I don’t have the best eye. Size of the head, I just can’t tell–can’t get the proportions right in my mind.
It is hard to determine scale of head to body ratio on that flatcoat in just one photo. I would say that the barbering emphasizes the neck and makes the head look smaller. I like the head type of that FCR, but don’t like the extreme clipping on the neck.
There are several things to look at in general. First, the size of the head in proportion to the body of the dog, and that can vary, depending on the sex of the flatcoat, and the conformation of that particular individual. I’ve seen dogs with large or domey heads, in proportion to their body, dogs with androgenous heads, where they look more like bitches, and dogs with small heads, in proportion to their bodies.
Next, look at the width of the back-skull, the proportion of length of muzzle compared to the length of the entire head and the width of the back-skull. You can’t tell anything about the width of the back-skull in the photo above. I do like the proportions of muzzle to entire head, and I like his eye placement.
I think what Scottie is talking about are the FCRs with narrower, more extreme heads than some lines in the states. Their heads look smaller, but they’re just more extreme. Their back-skulls are narrow, their muzzle is quite long, and they have almost no stop. Often, their eye placement is more like that of a Rough Collie.
“Borzoi flat-coats” is what I call them. I’ve got a photo of one somewhere on the blog.
I don’t exactly like the head on that dog all that much. His muzzle is a bit too short when compared to the skull and he has a bit too much of a stop. The head does also look a bit small (and I’m used to looking at pictures of flatcoats with trimmed necks).
However, I’ve noticed that evaluating a flatcoats head based on just one picture is quite difficult as a slight change in head position can change the picture significantly.
Goldens are the same way, except that in that standard, they want more of a stop. In reality, you very often get field line goldens with very flat-coat heads.
I think what I would worry about is breeding for a borzoi head in the flat-coat. Like this dog: http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/flattie.jpg
I was looking on the breeder’s website and found the dog on the photo. His name is Arminzeras Asfaloth (http://www.arminzera.no/a.asfaloth.php). I think he’s a wonderful dog, and I can also see that he’s got 2 CC’s and 2 BOB in Norway.
I agree with you. I think this dog has good conformation.
And I don’t actually like conformation showing. I’ve got the standard of both goldens and flat-coats well conceptualized.
All the opinions on the supposed flaws aside…. this could be a wonderful dog nonetheless. Again all I see here are comments based off of individual opinions of what an FCR should look like. When all is said and done the ultimate decision is in the hands of a judge to drop their own opinion on what dog looks the best to them. Really making anything we say here….moot. But, obviously all rooted in that show mentality.
If the dog acts more like a dog its possibly a better specimen than any show dog.
I’m ultimately a Lab gal, so my eye is biased–but a boy flat-coat with little stop looks awfully “girly” to me. I don’t so much mind it in the girls–maybe because I’m getting used to it?
My female flat-coat has what seems to me a very exaggerated flat-coat head, but the flat-coat people who know say she has a lovely head.
I just know she can see a duck thrown three hundred yards away and she runs like a demon on both marks and in our early blind work, and that makes me smile.
A lot of field line goldens have flat-coat heads.
Some flat-coats originally had heavier bodies and rather distinct stops, almost like what you’d see in golden retrievers: http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/01/16/some-heavy-bodied-flat-coats/
And then there’s Zelstone: http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/zelstone.jpg
I like the fact that I can point to an area where a toy was left days ago and any of my dogs will run in that direction then when I say “BRING IT” they go into search mode until they actually find it then bring it back and drop it at my feet.
Or
When I’m at the Lake and throw their toy far off into the lake and a dozen dogs go for it leaping into the water at full throttle. You’d almost think you could surf on the wake they leave behind.
We do the dog show thing to talk to other people who are spectators and basically educate them on our dogs and our endeavors. But its also nice to win once in a while. Our kids love the different colored ribbons. And we kind of get a kick out of how when all the dog show people are preening their dogs on a grooming table, we just dust ours off from laying at our feet, go in the ring and do our thing. Sometimes we win and that’s cool too. But mostly we meet other owners and handlers and discover that not all of them are anal retentive according to the dog fancier stereotype. Although some live up to that reputation very well, many are just normal people who love dogs.
Its also fun to arrive at a show with all five of our children following along like duck in a row as we lead our dogs to our ring. The kids always question why they get looks like they shouldn’t be there. Isn’t that a horrible way for a child to thin? Really makes you understand why dog shows are dwindling in popularity. And why The AKC is scratching their heads wondering why membership is down, or why hybrid dogs have suddenly become the rage.
The Dog world really needs to just wake up.
Your dogs have lots of instinct. I had a golden that was very much like that. She could find anything if you told her to.
Our hybrid dog has all the same drive we see in our Flatties. Pretty impressive to see it run out and retrieve. Looks just like an FCR in a smaller package. We’re extremely amazed by the biddable nature and the quick learning ability it exhibits. And without question we’re extremely surprised by the popularity of this mix. The kick in the pants is when people see it for the first time and ask if that is a Golden puppy. I see the Retriever in it. And still a bit of Spaniel. Sort of reminds me of the Murrays with more of a Flattie stature all shrunken down.
Sorry about the several year lateness of this post. I’ve only just recently begun researching Golden Retriever history, and I keep running into dead ends on how the original Tweedmouth Nous x Belle is related to modern day golden retrievers. Sweep, from my understanding, was out of Ada (who was out of Nous x Belle) – Ada was the foundational dog from the Ilchester line. Do you know if any of Sweep’s offsprings were bred to any of the Culham or Ingestre dogs (or any Tweedmouth dogs, for that matter)? I keep following the pedigrees up the line, and get to Culham dogs like Rock, Ben, Brass, Rossa, etc, but I just can’t find any definitive pedigree link to Nous and Belle.
The pedigree records run out at about that time, so it really gets confusing.
And we can only conjecture.