Canis lupus hominis

Posted in Retriever history | 16 Comments

16 Responses

1. on October 11, 2009 at 2:51 pm Viatecio

   I’d just jump to what looks blinding obvious and say “Lab,” but something about that butt and tail doesn’t look right. There’s too much of the former, to little of the latter…could just be the condition of the dog rather than a breed characteristic? I’ve seen a few Labs that have a little feathering.

   If the flat-coat and the golden are related, that doesn’t give me cause to guess that an aberrant gene gave rise to a short-haired dog…either it would have stuck around as a quirky anomaly or it would have been eliminated from the gene pool as an undesired deviance from the norm.

   Maybe a Chessie?

   
   
   • on October 11, 2009 at 3:35 pm retrieverman

     I have read of labs that had ruffs and feathering.

     Even St. John’s water dogs sometimes had this type of coat: http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/st-johns-water-dog.gif

     
     
2. on October 11, 2009 at 8:00 pm Sengimage

   I’m leaning towards a labrador and some other retriever interbred. Perhaps bit of Chessie in this one.

   Here’s a link I like that goes over the different types of Labs, Apparently there is mor to it than just show lines and field lines.

   http://www.labradornet.com/typecast.html

   
   
3. on October 11, 2009 at 10:28 pm flattie-n-Labbie

   There are some longer-haired Labradors–very uncommon.

   There’s something flat-coat-y about the front–but, that may be that most flat-coats I see have a pretty good front, and a lot of the Labs I see don’t. If someone knew the answer and I had to put money on it, I’d say Lab/other retriever mix as well, but I wouldn’t feel real confident about it.

   I’ve never really “bought” that Labradornet site–It’s interesting, and I’ve looked at it on and off over the past several years–no one I’ve ever met really refers to these different types or pays attention to the different “types” it cites, and I’ve seen a few places where it’s openly scoffed at–but maybe I’m just not in circles that pay attention to this sort of distinction–they’re more of the “handsome is as handsome does” crew.

   I agree with the site’s image of the Lab getting shorter and fatter, and that it’s a damn shame–but they at least used to imply that show breeders are breeding honest-to-goodness dwarves, and that I highly doubt, as from what I understand the most common form of dwarfism in Labs also comes with very crooked limbs and usually blindness.

   Just my understanding–willing to be corrected.

   
   
   • on October 11, 2009 at 11:02 pm Jess

     Is there a recessive for long coat in Labs or is it just a variation on the regular coat?

     
     
     • on October 11, 2009 at 11:41 pm retrieverman

       Actually, there is but is very, very uncommon these days.

       
       
4. on October 11, 2009 at 11:15 pm flattie-n-Labbie

   I believe I’ve read that it is a simple recessive–and very uncommon.

   Labs do have some minor variation in coat length–but if you’ve ever seen a longer-haired one (I have, once)–it’s very obvious it’s different.

   
   
5. on October 11, 2009 at 11:25 pm flattie-n-Labbie

   Ah! Found what I thought I’d read. A retriever training BB’s discussion of long-haired Labs, with a picture.

   http://retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=32904&highlight=long-haired

   
   
   • on October 11, 2009 at 11:45 pm retrieverman

     I knew there was a gene– which came from either the St. John’s water dog or the wavy/flat-coated retriever or both (my personal opinion is both).

     I’m not jumping out on a limb here, because wavy-coats, Labradors, and flat-coats had both lighter framed and heavier-built dogs in their gene pools originally. Although, really lightly built Labradors are largely a modern phenomenon.

     I got this photo from a Finnish forum discussing Labradors. I don’t speak a word of Finnish.

     
     
     • on October 12, 2009 at 12:02 am flattie-n-Labbie

       The more I look at it, the more I think Lab, because of the ears. Even with the bit of feathering, its ears look clean. There’s something about the tail that suggests Lab, too.

       
       
       • on October 12, 2009 at 12:04 am retrieverman

         I won’t even go out on a limb here.

         
         
         • on October 12, 2009 at 12:10 am flattie-n-Labbie

           Aw, c’mon–you have to have your own guess!

           You could ask the Finnish forum very politely in English what kind of dog this is–I bet someone could answer you.

           I’d be very curious.

           
           
           • on October 12, 2009 at 12:25 am retrieverman

             My guess is that it is a long-haired Labrador.

             
             
6. on October 12, 2009 at 2:16 am Sengimage

   I’m guessing the long haired trait is also a result of trying to interbreed Goldens, Chessies and Flatties in the history of the Labrador. Again there are enough similarities in all of them to morph into what is being seen here. And in the end it was possibly the result of these introduced traits that is why the long haired variation exists. Maybe what is here is an example of the older influences of St John’s and what we’re seeing today in the long haired variant is more to do with more recent interbreeding of the other three retrievers to try and improve coat etc. etc.

   I’m contemplating joining with another kennel that breeds Goldens that is interested to interbreed with our Flatties. Perhaps the results will look similar.

   
   
7. on October 14, 2009 at 4:50 am Another old wavy or flat-coat « Retrieverman's Weblog

   […] the more I look at these contemporary flat-coats, the more I think that this dog is a long-haired Labrador. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Golden Cashew going to […]

   
   
8. on October 14, 2009 at 3:22 pm labpack

   I have never seen a long-coated Labrador in my life – but going way, way back a line of one of my Lab’s pedigree there are “parents unknown”, unregistered, “interbred” and a Flatcoat, too.
   So, an occasional long-coated version wouldn’t be too much of a surprise.

   From my opinion the photos of the early 1900’s Labradors look “fit for function”, capable to do what the breed was meant to do and moreover they were the very ‘models’ to the Breed Standard.
   To me the two extremes, seen today in the field and conformation shows, look more or less just caricatures of the breed.

   
   

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