Canis lupus hominis

Posted in dog behavior, wild dogs, wolves | Tagged alpha roll | 37 Comments

37 Responses

1. on February 17, 2010 at 7:10 pm H. Houlahan

   Oh bullshit. Showing one interaction in which a subordinate goes tits-up without physical contact from the dominant animal “debunks” nothing.

   I’ve observed both dogs and red wolves forcibly rolling conspecifics. Usually it is a feckless adolescent who gets rolled.

   Those who throw around “always” and “never” about animals find that the animal they are going to be eating has shiny black feathers.

   
   
   • on February 17, 2010 at 9:48 pm retrieverman

     I’ve watched plenty of interactions between dogs and I’ve never seen a dog roll another. Never.

     I’ve seen them grab muzzles.

     And one of my goldens tossed a JRT.

     But I think this is a myth.

     And very good way to get badly bitten.

     
     
   • on February 17, 2010 at 11:04 pm cyborgsuzy

     Rinalia’s comment helped clarify something that was gnawing the back of my brain about your comment. The way humans employ “alpha rolling” is not to correct an rambunctious youngster. That may be a type of dominance, but it’s not the Dominance with a capital ‘D’ that is used by Cesar and others.

     
     
2. on February 17, 2010 at 7:39 pm YesBiscuit!

   I thought the point of the alpha roll was to get the dog in a submissive and relaxed state of mind by placing him in a submissive posture. Perhaps I understood wrongly but to my way of thinking, if the dog is rolling over into the submissive posture on his own, you probably aren’t having the sorts of issues in which someone would use the alpha roll. Therefore it makes sense to me that a person would place a dog in that position who does have “issues” because obviously you can’t stand around all day waiting to see if the dog changes his mind and volunteers to do it himself.

   
   
   • on February 17, 2010 at 8:38 pm cyborgsuzy

     But by that logic, wouldn’t you also force the dog’s ears forward and tail to wag to get it in a state of mind to be happy? Neither makes sense to me.

     
     
     • on February 17, 2010 at 8:56 pm YesBiscuit!

       How would you force the dog’s ears forward? Do you mean pushing them from behind? I’ve never heard of that training technique.
       I am not a trainer but for my dogs, I try to do the easiest thing to get the response. If that fails, I like to have plenty of tools in toolbox to go to for backup. I can make a dog happy by doing something much simpler than physically forcing the ears forward. I consider the alpha roll to be one of many tools in the toolbox.

       
       
       • on February 17, 2010 at 9:51 pm retrieverman

         I’ve never done i.

         This alpha stuff– it’s really easy to explain, but it’s actually far more complex. Dogs are not chickens. They are not horses. And they aren’t captive packs of big game hunting wolves whose ancestors were shot and trapped and poisoned for generations.

         It’s not about alpha. It’s about rules. Dogs are one of the few animals that can internalize rules.

         And I say this as someone who defends e-collars, provided the person knows how to use one.

         
         
       • on February 17, 2010 at 10:06 pm cyborgsuzy

         Training, to me, is to get a dog to perform (or stop performing) a specific action. Alpha rolling seems to try to force the dog to feel an specific emotion. Who cares if they’re disagree with you, or feel scared in certain situations, or … etc, as long as they listen to you and perform the correct action? Kind of like, I don’t care if my horse spooks at something on the trail, as long as they learn to spook in place and not run off with me.

         That’s why I see ‘alpha rolling’ as silly and as counterproductive as forcing them to feel happy by forcing their body into ‘happy’ stance such as ears forward.

         I try to picture how people would train their dogs if they were bigger than a human and couldn’t be physically dominated.

         
         
         • on February 17, 2010 at 11:12 pm retrieverman

           I’ve got a longer post on this, which will be published at 7 PM EST.

           
           
         • on February 17, 2010 at 11:23 pm retrieverman

           Like a killer whale?

           
           
           • on February 18, 2010 at 4:45 am cyborgsuzy

             I was picturing Siegfried or Roy alpha rolling one of their tigers.

             
             
             • on February 18, 2010 at 4:48 am retrieverman

               I think one alpha rolled Roy.

               I have issues with white tigers:

               
               
       • on February 17, 2010 at 10:38 pm Rinalia

         Argh, comment fail (please delete my other comment – I keep forgetting to not comment w/ my other handle). Sorry.

         An alpha roll is a human concept (we like the idea of physical dominance) that means terror and fear to a dog. If that is what you want to instill into a dog, then add it to your toolbox. It will dramatically increase your risk of a)alienating your dog, especially if he is soft or sensitive and b) getting bitten, especially if she is fear-aggressive or has a low bite threshold.

         I’ve seen quite a few folks nailed by dogs while performing an alpha roll. It, in fact, used to be included as a standard procedure in t-tests at a shelter where I volunteered (it isn’t anymore), especially with Pit Bull type dogs. If a dog balked or tried to bite, they were killed (I had to fight to save the life of a Pit Bull who bit when her arthritic-self was painfully alpha rolled). I don’t know about you, but if someone grabbed me by the throat and threw me to the ground, I would try and defend myself. I might also stop trusting that person if they were friend…dogs are sometimes more forgiving, but not always.

         It does not create a “submissive” state of mind in all dogs. It does create a state of learned helplessness wherein a dog may just give up, but that’s hardly a resounding victory for either human or dog.

         Here are a list of behaviors I’ve seen in nearly every single dog alpha rolled:
         Nipping
         Biting (gently and with their full power)
         Screaming/Whining/other “stop what you are doing” vocalizations
         Whale eyes (whites of eye showing, a classic indicator of fear)
         Tense body (indicator of discomfort, stress and possibly fear)
         Shaking/trembling
         Tail covering genitals and stomach (a relaxed dog has no reason to place her tail over her belly – when my dogs flip on their backs, their tails are splayed all over the place)
         Panting (in the absence of extreme weather or exercise, this is an indicator of stress)
         Urination/defecation
         Placation yawning

         I have yet to see a dog who, immediately after being manhandled to the ground, just relaxes – as in, no panting, no tail covering genitals, no tense body, no stress panting, no trying to stop the person from assaulting them.

         To me, I think it’s imperative we consider this from a dog’s perspective. At what point in a dog’s world would another dog ignore all of their distance-increasing behaviors*, grab them by the throat and shove them to the ground, exposing their neck and belly? I’ve seen this done in several instances – two of them resulted in the “alpha rolled” dog’s death. This is highly aggressive behavior that, in a dog’s world, means fight or die. That they may show incredible restraint with us when we do alpha roll them is a reflection of their tolerance, not our intelligence.

         *These are the behaviors that get dogs alpha rolled. Dogs who snarl – don’t touch me! Dogs who bark – move away from me! Dogs who redirect onto other animals – go away! Dogs who bite – stop doing what you are doing! These are distance increasing behaviors most dogs would heed but we not only ignore them, we punish the dog for them, sometimes quite severely. While it is important to deter such behaviors, using human concepts – like alpha rolls – to try and encourage alternative behaviors or root out the fundamental problem seems unfortunate and dangerous.

         
         
         • on February 17, 2010 at 11:13 pm retrieverman

           I’m going to do a longer post on this, which will be up at 7 PM EST.

           
           
     • on February 17, 2010 at 9:52 pm retrieverman

       This is actually THE best way to get bitten.

       And why I don’t like Cesar.

       
       
3. on February 17, 2010 at 8:26 pm Sengimage

   Audible tone and body language usually does the trick in my house. My kids even know not to call dogs by name when correcting behavior and just to voice “EEHHHH EHHHH” and stand tall for an immediate response where the dogs, usually all within earshot will cau-tau to even my 5 year old boys.

   The dogs are socialized from pups to respond this way. I don’t know if its truly an alpha role, but more like an assertive /dominant role.

   Hey now. I’m the big cahuna. Then the wife ( she may think otherwise) then the kids. Then the dogs. They have their own pecking order and sometimes the younger ones will challenge the older dogs. That is until the big cahuna says otherwise. ;-)

   
   
4. on February 18, 2010 at 1:25 am Mongoose

   I don’t know anything about what wolves do or don’t, but I’ve seen my dog get in a lot of dog fights and typically somebody does get thrown down and pinned. This is what an “alpha roll” represents for a dog: getting the worst of a dog fight. It doesn’t represent harmonious pack relations, leadership, “dominance” or anything like that. It just means you’re losing a fight. So yeah, the dog is going to fight back and see the human doing the “alpha roll” as an aggressor. The only purpose it serves is in communicating to the dog that “I am bigger and I’m going to kick your arse into next week.” Useful in some circumstances, but yes, a very good way to get bit.

   And the idea that you can get a dog to feel submissive by forcing it to lie on its back doesn’t bear any relation to anything I’ve ever observed in dog behaviour. Indeed, the dog has to lie down on his own for it to have any meaning.

   
   
   • on February 18, 2010 at 1:51 am retrieverman

     Dogs are Deweyites; they learn by doing.

     
     
5. on February 18, 2010 at 2:45 am Viatecio

   I do agree with Heather on a few points: one situation does not debunk a “myth,” and yes dogs can and do roll other dogs and other animals (even if the other animals don’t understand why or how or whatever). But that is amongst themselves and in situations where they are mostly in control, and humans are out of the picture, for the most part.

   With that said, I’ve never liked the Alpha roll and do not recommend it. If I’m going to be bitten, I’d rather have it done in a way that doesn’t preclude me ASKING for it. Aside from that issue, I don’t like the idea behind it, of FORCING submission. A popular headcollar today uses that same argument in support of its use, that “the more your dog fights it, the more he needs it,” and unfortunately people do not see the similarities between this and the Alpha roll, because of the purported “humane-ness” and “gentle-ness” of the product. I have much better ways of making my dogs learn to respect me than through force or resistance. I’m sure most everyone here does too.

   I don’t like that Cesar forces it, but I do like how he can get a dog to voluntarily roll over for him…which speaks worlds in how HIS dogs view him, not some serious DA pitbull who has only known him for 2 seconds.

   
   
   • on February 18, 2010 at 3:07 am retrieverman

     I think it is a 100 percent bogus myth.

     The only thing I’ve seen like a roll is golden retriever picking up and tossing a JRT.

     
     
     • on February 18, 2010 at 4:02 am cyborgsuzy

       How timely! I just got a photo of Zelda alpha rolling Rocky:

       

       … or, yanno, something.

       
       
       • on February 18, 2010 at 4:15 am retrieverman

         Gosh, maybe they’re right.

         Maybe we all have to be like Shaun Ellis (of “deepest Devon”) and act like wolves:

         This guy is so awesome, he even taught a wolf puppy how to howl!

         I also taught my dog to shed using this same technique.

         
         
       • on February 18, 2010 at 4:18 am retrieverman

         You either have one very small border collie.

         Or that is one big German shepherd or shepherd X.

         
         
         • on February 18, 2010 at 4:37 am cyborgsuzy

           A little of both. She’s 33 lbs, he’s 110.

           
           
     • on February 18, 2010 at 4:19 am Jess

       My dogs do it occasionally. Usually it involves a young dog being an absolute ass and totally ignoring all the ‘stop that, you little idiot’ signals an older dog is giving it. Or a young dog not watching where it’s going and literally running over an older one. I wouldn’t call what happens a ‘roll’ because the dog on the bottom doesn’t necessarily go over all the way onto it’s side or back, it’s more pinning with the legs while simultaneously biting the head/muzzle. The disciplinee usually goes down voluntarily with a good deal of help from the discipliner. If the disciplinee does not go down voluntarily, you will get some pushy-pushy-growly going on and occasionally a fight, depending on the dogs involved.

       I have, on occasion, seen a really pissed off dog hit the disciplinee like a freight train and completely bowl it over. The disciplinee will then slink off and pay more attention in the future, at least for a little while.

       
       
       • on February 18, 2010 at 4:33 am Rinalia

         That is not an alpha roll.

         Both my dogs will scruff each other when they feel the other is acting inappropriately. If you watch closely, like you mentioned, 9/10 the one receiving the scruff is willingly lowering their body and turning to the side (which I’ve always felt is their way of potentially engaging in some agonism, if the other dog doesn’t back off after the conciliatory gesture is made).

         That is very different than one dog grabbing another by the bottom of the throat and slamming them forcefully to the ground and holding them down.

         If you spend any time at dog parks, you’ll see a lot of supposed alpha rolls that are actually the dog rolling him/herself over. In my own experience, the times I’ve seen true alpha rolls have been in the middle of fights and, in two cases, the dog getting flipped over also got their throats pretty much ripped out. It certainly convinced me I didn’t want to convey THAT sort of message to my dogs!

         
         
       • on February 18, 2010 at 4:34 am retrieverman

         That’s not what they’re calling an alpha roll.

         An alpha roll is something like this (supposedly) but I’ve only seen people do this particular behavior to dogs:

         I don’t know what universe these people are on, but that dog doesn’t look okay when he says it’s a “good energy.”

         
         
         • on February 18, 2010 at 4:41 am Rinalia

           Tense, panting, helpless. Hardly “calm”. Plus, there wasn’t any REASON for it. Just because we *can* do something to another creature doesn’t mean we *should*. And, in many cases where the dog is much larger and has an even lower bite threshold (and bites full force!), you shouldn’t be so stupid as to attempt such a “training tool”.

           I didn’t see that whole episode, but did that dog look like he had possible neurological problems? He was acting very strange with poor depth perception and spatial awareness.

           
           
           • on February 18, 2010 at 4:46 am retrieverman

             Now, I’m going to sound like a Vegan.

             I try watching this show every once in a while, but I have as much trouble watching it as conformation dog shows.

             The Yorkie is blind, but I don’t know if he has any neurological problems.

             I wish we could move towards more “dog friendly” dog training methods, which we were in the mid-90’s to the early 00’s. Then we’ve had a backlash, and this show is the beginning of it.

             And I’m about the only person on this blog roll who thinks there are better ways to do it.

             
             
             • on February 18, 2010 at 4:52 am Rinalia

               @Retrieverman: Hey, to appeal to your vegan fan(s), it’s okay to sound like us once in a blue moon! I know you won’t make a habit of it. :)

               Blind, that makes much more sense. And makes rolling him over like that all the more mean.

               
               
       • on February 18, 2010 at 4:36 am retrieverman

         I’ve seen the muzzle bite behavior which then leads to one dog rolling over.

         But if a dog had been pushing another dog into that position by biting its muzzle, it would have been putting so much pressure on the other dog’s head to seriously injure it.

         I’ve never trusted dime store ethology for dog training, and I’m not stupid to think that my dogs have ever thought of me as a wolf or another dog.

         
         
6. on February 18, 2010 at 8:32 pm flattie-n-Labbie

   My two cents, which have mostly been stated already:

   My older dog will roll the young one in play, but it’s play that says “I’m bigger than you and you seem to be forgetting that, young lady, so I’m reminding you in good fun. Remember it.” She “taps out,” and sometimes they go another round.

   The only dog fights I’ve seen, there was no rolling or submission–the dogs were fighting because they were too much the same in dominance, size, and intention. I think if it progressed to a roll there would be a lot of blood involved.

   I’ve tried the alpha roll. I think it’s a good way to pick a battle that the dog is either going to do its best to win (an escalation of aggression, for me, is counterproductive), or a dog which will be confused or afraid (when usually what I want from a situation is clarity).

   I agree that it’s a great way to get bit and ruin a relationship. For me. I’ve tried it, with unsatisfactory or negative results, and I’ll never do it again, because even if it can be done well I clearly just suck at it.

   If it works for any of you, well–I don’t really know any of you and don’t need to have anything to do with your pack of dogs, so, you know, go for it.

   
   
7. on February 19, 2010 at 12:13 am JackieFitz

   I agree with Rinalia; alpha rolls are a completely human invention. I have never once seen a dog grab another by the throat and throw them to the ground as a form of punishment. I have seen this behavior once while passing the local dog park, however, but it occurred during a vicious dog fight and the dog being flipped had its throat practically ripped out.

   The dog team at the rescue that I currently volunteer and foster for is totally into dominance-style training and Cesar Millan. Two weekends ago at an adoption fair one volunteer was going around Sht!ing dogs for attention barking. Of course, most of the dogs were just happy that they were getting attention, and kept on barking, so this volunteer went into their pens and started jabbing them in the necks while Sht!Sht!Sht!ing.

   Alpha rolls are just as common as poking and Sht!ing there, and are applied to EVERYTHING.

   Dog is pulling on the leash? He’s being dominant! Throw him on his back!
   Dog is interested in other dog? He’s being dominant! Throw him on his back!
   Dog is jumping on you trying to elicit play? He’s being dominant! Throw him on his back!

   Dogs new to this style of “training” frequently respond with the normal fear/aggression, which generally prompts more alpha rolls and poking.
   The dogs used to the rolls, however, view the motions of their owners about to roll them as a cue to move onto their back. The behavior no longer has any emotional response behind it, it’s just another trick, just like sit or shake.

   
   
   • on February 19, 2010 at 1:04 am cyborgsuzy

     And people who still like Cesar’s methods would just say, “oh, they’re just not using those methods correctly.” I’ve heard this over and over again when I criticize the use of poking and alpha rolling. It stinks of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy; except I don’t think anyone, not even the poster boy of alpha rolling, does it “correctly”.

     
     
     • on February 19, 2010 at 1:23 am retrieverman

       I think Karl Popper would have some problems with Cesar.

       
       
8. on February 19, 2010 at 2:16 am Peggy Richter

   most views of the alpha roll are based on something like this:
   
   which is a dominance fight where the white dominant wolf is not satisfied with the submission of the other wolf. It’s not how most trainers view an “alpha roll”
   Note that this occurs in a zoo.
   vr, Peggy Richter

   
   
   • on February 19, 2010 at 2:27 am Rinalia

     Very interesting! I’ve never seen this type of behavior in domestic dogs (I’ve only seen video of wild canines and nothing quite like this).

     It’s hard to tell how willing the submissive wolf is – he’s clearly unhappy with the white wolf’s really rude, aggressive behavior. I can’t tell if the black wolf goes with the roll or if he really resists. My leaning is the latter, since he finally gets really fed up and nails the white wolf with a bite. But I don’t know.

     The end result, of course, is one really stressed out, freaked out canine – not calm, for sure, but really uncomfortable. And had that white wolf been a human, he’d be pretty beaten up with bite wounds!

     
     

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