Canis lupus hominis

Posted in dog behavior | 13 Comments

13 Responses

1. on March 9, 2010 at 9:44 pm Christopher

   The rhetoric is getting a little thick, no?

   
   
2. on March 9, 2010 at 9:58 pm Christopher

   Oh and the video gets better. Obama waved a wand and we’re now a benevolent nation (let’s not talk about the consequences to her native Israel), and “oh gawd I hate those parents! They are like so mean! But if their kids cry on a plane I want them dead or drugged!”

   This clearly has little to do with results and a lot to do with religion. Irreconcilable world views.

   
   
   • on March 9, 2010 at 10:07 pm retrieverman

     I didn’t know she was into Obama.

     She’s a former Israeli intelligence professional.

     
     
   • on March 9, 2010 at 10:10 pm retrieverman

     I question whether Cesar gets results.

     I see no independent longitudinal studies on his clients.

     But my guess is his success rate is about like Joe Arpaio’s recidivism rate.

     
     
3. on March 9, 2010 at 11:02 pm Christopher

   A longitudinal study would be interesting, but I’ve seen enough self-serving studies to not place them on a pedestal. When was the last time you saw a study come out of Berkeley that could be confused for one out of BYU, or perhaps the Chicago School of Economics?

   More importantly, I can see (with editing of course) Cesar make clear progress in hours. Even in seconds during a single clip. I see dogs that can go back to their families after a few hours. Dunbar’s reprogramming very well might work, but nothing I’ve read or seen online would suggest that Dunbar could have done anything with the “wolf hybrid” (as if that hybrid part matters, they’re not the only dogs who act like that) RIGHT THERE, day of, second of.

   You can spend months with the hand feeding (Cesar loves this) and play-fighting and other games to try and teach the dog to have a soft mouth. And you can try and avoid the issue with distractions like stuffed kongs, etc., but it’s not very effective.

   It’s rather like saying “I’m not going to take antibiotics because they’re mean.” Sure, you can take a vitamin pill instead and it will take longer, be less effective, and you might just lose. Sure, you could have invested a lot of time months and years ago to be in better health now, but that’s not a luxury when the problem comes to a head.

   You can fight fire with fire or you can fight fire with water. I believe in both, and I believe people who deny the efficacy of fighting fire with fire because it might be “mean” are welcome to let their own homes burn but playing the morality police with others is asinine.

   But little of this is even relevant, since I have only once dealt with a dog that would make it on Cesar’s show, and that was long before I knew anything of formal dog training. I imagine most people are exactly the same. A problem dog is a rarity, and you really have to go out of your way to end up with a red-line dog.

   I think that’s something that is not being appreciated. Milan’s show is not a morning how-to, it’s an afternoon drama. Watch an episode and see how little you actually can take away to use on your own dogs… except the “get off your ass and do SOMETHING” mantras.

   Those are excellent tips and the videos of Dunbar that you posted fit 100% with those mantras. But those elements might be necessary, but they are certainly not sufficient.

   
   
4. on March 9, 2010 at 11:23 pm Jess

   “I think that’s something that is not being appreciated. Milan’s show is not a morning how-to, it’s an afternoon drama. Watch an episode and see how little you actually can take away to use on your own dogs… except the “get off your ass and do SOMETHING” mantras.”

   True story: my mother and father own a Dachshund, a neutered male in between mini and standard. Cute dog. They have no problems with him. During the fires in California a couple years back, they were evacuated and went to stay with my cousin, taking with them my niece and her little dog, a Dachshund/Yorkie cross, a dog that also has no problems. They left the two dogs in a pen at my cousin’s house so they could go to lunch. When they got back, the Dachshund was acting strangely. Very subdued, tail down. When he saw my cousin, he did something he doesn’t normally do with people: barked with his teeth bared. My mother asked, ‘did you do something with him while we were gone?’ The husband says, ‘oh, he barked at me so I showed him who’s boss.’ It turned out the husband is a big fan of Cesar’s. There were no lasting repercussions for my parent’s little dog from this incident, but it took a while before he would trust men other than my dad.

   That’s my problem with Cesar. Idiots watch his show and try to imitate him in situations where it is not appropriate.

   I have owned hard dogs before. The two Tazi pups I am raising were challenging when they first came, at eight weeks old. No tolerance for frustration at all, threw kicking, flailing, growling tantrums over being removed from certain things, or having certain things removed from them. I also have dogs that will fall down and roll over if I give them hard eyes. The technique must fit the dog, there is no one size fits all. Because of the type of show that Cesar’s is, you don’t see a large variety of dogs, I guess. Maybe that gives people the wrong impression.

   That said, I read recently that Turid Rugaas says don’t ever remove something from your dog’s mouth, because they are predators and will just hold on harder. WTF? I also do not like the Me or the Dog woman, the few times I watched her show I was so appalled by all the eye rolling and mugging behind the clients backs that I couldn’t concentrate on the dogs.

   
   
   • on March 10, 2010 at 12:19 am Pai

     Yeah, she is really hard on the owners; I think she goes overboard berating them sometimes.

     
     
     • on March 10, 2010 at 12:44 am Viatecio

       This exact reason is (one of many in) why I don’t like That Woman.

       I do not understand people who hire someone and then PUT UP with being treated like crap. It is very unprofessional on the part of someone who is SUPPOSED to be a professional, and the clients should be embarrassed enough at their own gullibility that they promptly show said non-professional the door.

       Despite the few downsides to Cesar, his interpersonal skills are definitely a win in my book. (Then again, anyone can be a smooth talker…oh wait, didn’t someone reference Obama?!)

       By the by, Chris, that piece of writing up there is excellent.

       
       
5. on March 10, 2010 at 12:27 am Tara

   I hate to sound like a broken record, but Dr. Sophia Yin has two dogs on her youtube page that she worked with for minutes and were very like some dogs I’ve seen on Cesar’s show.

   One is here:
   

   Cesar had a dog who was similarly aggressive when you tried to groom it on his show. He pinned it down to force it to be groomed and was bitten. This does not surprise me – I have worked with similar dogs in animal shelters and veterinary hospitals. Pinning them down for toenail trims or grooming often makes them MUCH WORSE next time. Even if they eventually “settle” the first time you do it. They end up as dogs that MUST be pinned every time and many of them try very hard to avoid being muzzled because they know the toenail trim/grooming is coming and would like to be able to defend themselves from something they dislike/find frightening/whatever.

   The other is here:
   

   I realize this one has a “few days later” thing at the end, but the dog was already making improvements from the start and was only worked with for a few minutes. She also has some other dogs who were very dog aggressive and perhaps took a bit more time to train, but

   I agree with you, Christopher, that the tools must fit the job, and I’m not entirely sold on one method over another because I haven’t trained an awful lot of dogs, personally. Still, when you say that methods like Dunbar’s (or Yin’s or whoever’s) don’t work or are too slow to work and Cesar’s are the only real sure bet, you’re wrong. Different trainers use different methods and you CAN use positive methods to work with an aggressive dog, just as you could use more aversive methods to teach dogs to fetch or sit if you wanted.

   
   
   • on March 10, 2010 at 3:29 am Christopher

     Tara, don’t get me wrong. I use Mary Ray/Dunbar, etc.’s methods 99% of the time. Because 99% of the time it works efficiently and it’s low risk and it’s clear what you’re telling the dog.

     I’m not against Dunbar at all, I’m against the ridiculous characterization of what Cesar does as cruel and I’m for using the best tool for me and the dog at the right time. Just because many positive-only people outright reject Millan doesn’t mean I’m doing the same in return. I don’t believe in removing a technique over dogma, not efficiency.

     Those videos are great, I’d totally use that technique, and I’ve done that before desensitizing the dogs to the shower. I tried it with the dremel, but it was clunky enough where I needed two people and didn’t have 2 at the time. I _did not_ then decide to simply pin my dog down. It’s clear to me that the reason the dog hates the clippers isn’t an issue of me not being assertive, or me not being dominant, or them being willful or obstinate at all. It’s fear of the clipper.

     Sure, I can pull rank and demand the dog submit, but to me, nail health isn’t important enough to do that. I’d rather put in the time to train away the issue. Dog park manners, on the other hand, are important enough for me to _gasp_ touch my dog. To me, I don’t just want obedience to me or a nice distraction, I want to make it clear that I don’t put up with snarky behavior at the dog park, which is a place where if shit goes wrong I can lose the dogs.

     Actually, nail cutting is one of the things I caved on and had my puppies dewclawed because I hate keeping the dew claws short enough for them to be safe or taping them up at agility events. The dogs keep busy enough where their other nails only need occasional trims/sandings, but those dew claws are just monstrous. I hate doing my older two’s DCs because they aren’t just simple trims, they take work, it’s not fun, and even after desensitization I’m not earning any kudo points with the dogs.

     Unlike showers, which the girls actually look forward to now, becoming very happy with all the praise they get when they’re clean and really getting into the massage… no one likes the nail trims. They even refuse the liverwurst, their favorite, because they get the “I accept the treat, you get to trim” contract.

     
     
     • on March 10, 2010 at 3:48 am retrieverman

       What you do is you buy a farm and run the dogs a couple of miles a day. That will wear down most dogs’ nails, even the ones on the dewclaws.

       
       
       • on March 10, 2010 at 5:50 am Bridget

         Ha ha, the best!

         
         
6. on March 10, 2010 at 2:59 pm Peggy Richter

   from watching the videos of Dr. Sophia Yin, it would appear that both conditioning examples take place over time. And the first requires that the dog be more interested in food (hot dogs?) than fearful of the clippers. Yes such conditioning can work – probably with the majority of dogs. Barbara Woodhouse’s methods worked with the majority of dogs. Milan and the current batch of “TV dog trainers” are the “reality TV” version of Dr. Phil. It’s more about the drama and making the owner/client look a fool than it is about solving the dog’s problems. Having said that, I haven’t seen Dunbar OR Milan do advanced off lead competition level work with a dog — not herding, obedience, flyball, agility –etc. It’s fairly easy to use a Skinnerian behavior modification method to shape a behavior in a very controlled environment. It’s much harder when you are dealing with variable environments and situations — it’s one reason why “movie animal trainers” are not a dime a dozen. Neither Dunbar nor Milan are dealing with “good” trainers with a real problem dog — they are dealing with complete novices that would all probably benefit from Barb Handler’s Positively Obedient book.
   vr Peggy Richter

   
   

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