The truth about Staffordshire bull terriers

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The truth about Staffordshire bull terriers

April 4, 2010 by retrieverman

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Posted in dog breeds | Tagged Staffordshire bull terriers | 234 Comments

234 Responses

on April 4, 2010 at 11:57 am Pibble

Excellent! It brought tears to my eyes. How much love could possibly drip from a video?! Thanks for sharing.
on April 4, 2010 at 1:03 pm Dennis

Its not the dog I generally have issue with, its the owner. Unfortunately along with people who have a love for the breed there is a large amount of undesirables who get the breed because it represents some tough guy status symbol or image of some kind (much the way the rottie once was). Little Johny scumbag doesn’t want a golden tied up outside, he wants a pitbull. Sure you’ll have issues with any dog that’s poorly socialized but you can’t deny those issues will be more pronounced with certian breeds.
- on April 4, 2010 at 3:31 pm cyborgsuzy
  
  Actually, I can deny that easily with about 10 seconds of consideration. Any ‘issues’ with dogs owned by ‘Little Johny Scumbag’ can be attributed to the human, not some mystical flaw in the dogs’ genetics.
  
  So this wishy-washy, oh gee, well sure there’s media bias but really there must be SOMETHING wrong with the breed, amirite? No. Don’t buy it.
  - on April 4, 2010 at 4:15 pm Christopher@BorderWars
    
    It’s not a flaw, cyborgsuzy, it’s the intentional breeding for aggression, biting, and unwavering commitment to attack.
    
    Pibble people are seemingly the only group in dogs who deny inbred traits and put all their money in training.
    
    Why are you surprised that the media writes about pibble attacks and bites when the VERY REASON for the breed is to attack and bite in a spectacular fashion?
    
    The bad people you mention, don’t just train the dogs, they breed them too. And they’re not breeding for any quality anyone in that video would admire. And they’re breeding a lot.
    - on April 4, 2010 at 5:38 pm Rinalia
      
      “VERY REASON for the breed is to attack and bite in a spectacular fashion?”
      
      Well shoot, I guess my backyard bred Pit Bull wasn’t bred because she could make money for her idiot owners producing litter after litter of red-nose Pit Bulls, it’s because they all bite in a SPECTACULAR fashion! Color me educated!
      
      I can’t wait until Mina starts biting and attacking in SPECTACULAR fashion! I’m sure it will be just like the 4th of July but with more carnage. She’s had about 9 years to plot my demise.
    - on April 4, 2010 at 6:07 pm Independent George
      
      (1) Dog aggression is not the same as human aggression; fighting dogs are actually bred NOT to attack humans. A dog fight ends with humans entering the ring to separate the dogs; a human aggressive pit bull would tear the throat out of his owner.
      (2) Even with all the selective breeding, the success rate for creating a fighting dog is extremely low. The reason for all those dog carcasses on the Vick estate was that they were culling their stock of all the dogs that weren’t sufficiently aggressive.
      (3) Even with all of the genetics and behavior behind it, fighting dogs are routinely rehabilitated. This was again demonstrated in the Vick case.
    - on April 5, 2010 at 1:42 am cyborgsuzy
      
      The only thing you list that’s actually heritable is that “unwavering commitment” part, which is a trait that many breeds have. Fight breeders aren’t breeding dogs to fight. There’s no ‘attack gene’ or ‘aggression gene’ (unlike, say, spaniel rage syndrome). They’re breeding for the same traits that other dog breeds have, and then put those dogs in situations where ANY type of dog would fight, but where being a bit more tenacious by nature makes the dogs better at it.
      
      This is why even former fighting dogs can make good pets.
  - on April 4, 2010 at 4:43 pm Dennis
    
    I couldn’t agree with you more. The flawed owner is the problem. That being said here is a quote from dog time..”This is not a breed for everyone, especially those who aren’t willing to invest time in training and socialization and can’t or won’t provide consistent firm guidance.” I am sure that type of comment can be found on any breed description regarding this breed. Some dogs require more effort than others. These guys being one of them….I understand your passion for your breed and I respect that. (My bad for mentioning little Johny. I did’nt mean to imply all owners or aficionados of pitt bulls were that way.)
  - on October 19, 2011 at 4:01 am tracy
    
    there is nothing wrong with the breed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is the owners fault i have forstered dogs deemed to dangourus to rehome i have 3 young children i have turned the dogs into sweet loving dogs that are great around children and other animals! it is compleatly the OWNERS fault if the dog they own is dangours and aggressive how about you take your shallow thoughts do your research and vollentee in a staffordshire bullterrier rescue you will learn about it before you shout your mouth off
on April 4, 2010 at 2:42 pm Kim

Once you’ve had a Stafffy in your life, you’ll never want to be without one. They’re one of the most loving and loyal dogs you’ll ever know. This is a great video.
on April 4, 2010 at 5:06 pm blkgldn-n-labmix

Perhaps everyone will think I’m crazy, but more than any other breed, I think the pit-bull-type dogs are THE most like retrievers…

They are very focused on their people, very eager to please, appear to be loyal without being one-person-only dogs, have high prey drive that can be channeled in a variety of amusing and interesting ways, are intelligent without being overly crafty, are happy go lucky when not working, intense when they are…

I’ve known a number of them, and I like them immensely.

That said, borderwars is right–they are selectively bred to do a job; today’s breedings have further selected them.

It’s not a job I personally would care to try to reign in the desire to fulfill, though I know there are people who can and do socialize and shape PB’s behaviors from the time they are puppies such that they trust them as much as one can trust any animal.

Just not my cup of tea to take on that kind of responsibility–and I imagine it’s not most people’s, though they may not realize it until they are in over their heads (especially with a rescue dog, I would think). That’s the only problem I see with the breed.

Though it’s the problem with most dogs… be careful what you wish for–you might get what you want. It’s just that in this case, you get a pit bull!
- on April 4, 2010 at 5:15 pm retrieverman
  
  The breeds are in no way related, though.
on April 4, 2010 at 5:23 pm blkgldn-n-labmix

That’s why it seems crazy, even to me. It’s quite possible I’ve lost my mind.

Bound to happen.

;)
on April 4, 2010 at 6:40 pm Holly

Christopher@Borderwars said: It’s not a flaw, cyborgsuzy, it’s the intentional breeding for aggression, biting, and unwavering commitment to attack.

.this.

Dude and his Homies are breeding aggressive dogs. Temperament is highly highly heritable. Dude doesn’t want the Golden Retriever ‘tude. Are there dogs who fail? Absolutely. But they aren’t the ones being bred.

Independent George wrote: (1) Dog aggression is not the same as human aggression; fighting dogs are actually bred NOT to attack humans.

I agree, dog/dog aggression is not the same as dog/people aggression. However….Dude is not your careful breeder….fighting dogs .of the past. were carefully bred to not attack people. I do not believe this is true anymore. I would hazard a guess here, that the breeders of the past also did other things with their dogs. Like socialize them. Dude very likely has not.

When people are attacked it’s not usually .just. about breeding. It’s probably also about training and conditioning. A dog left on a chain most of it’s life is going to be either frustrated or become complacent. The complacent dogs aren’t bred, that leaves the aggressive ones. See above.

Kim wrote: Once you’ve had a Stafffy in your life, you’ll never want to be without one.

I have had a Saffy in my life. He was a wonderful, sweet dog with an incredibly high pain threshold. I don’t want another.
- on April 4, 2010 at 7:37 pm Independent George
  
  However….Dude is not your careful breeder….fighting dogs .of the past. were carefully bred to not attack people. I do not believe this is true anymore. I would hazard a guess here, that the breeders of the past also did other things with their dogs.
  
  Actually, I was thinking about Dude McThug. I actually learned this from reading about Michael Vick – fighting dogs have to be physically separated by a human handler who basically jumps in between two dogs in battle. Those dogs are indeed bred to know the difference.
  
  I wish somebody would put together a database on the rehabilitation of the Vick dogs. I didn’t track the data, but from the individual accounts I’ve read, I don’t remember seeing a single case of human aggression aside from resource guarding. Most were fearful or shut down; a significant number were dog aggressive, but I don’t think any were human aggressive.
on April 4, 2010 at 7:53 pm EmilyS

Technically, the SBT is not really a “pit bull”, and it’s pretty rare in this country. There have been NO documented attacks by SBTs on kids in the US. No “thugs” own them in this country.

There is also not a single documented attack by a registered AKC AST or registered UKC APBT on anyone. These dogs have not been “breed for fighting” for many many generations. As for the Vick dogs, not only was just ONE killed for human aggression, about half are in happy homes, acting just like any other dog. Guess what: some of them (from their scars, apparent fighters) are friendly/social/tolerant of other dogs. It’s becoming increasingly unclear that you CAN really “breed a dog to fight another dog”.. you can certainly breed for high prey drive, and then condition, direct and force a dog to fight another dog. But that may be it.

I’m not going to waste time responding Christopher’s usual pee-in-his-pants fear/drivel. I’ll just repeat an anecdote passed on by a friend. She has a purebred AST (who’s a star of their library’s “kids read to dogs” program) and a purebred Malinois. I’m pretty sure everyone here knows that these 2 breeds have NOTHING in common in terms of appearance (or much else).

Her new neighbors just informed her that she has 2 very nice boxers.
- on April 4, 2010 at 8:32 pm retrieverman
  
  Correct.
  
  It’s an English breed.
  
  It is the source for all colored bull terriers.
  
  In Oz, they are quite common.
  - on April 5, 2010 at 11:03 am EmilyS
    
    In England, Staffords (btw, that’s the correct nickname; SBT people HATE “staffy”. The preferred nickname for the AST is “Amstaff”) are one of the most common breeds. England bans “pit bulls” in their “Dangerous Dogs Act”. Staffords have an almost identical heritage as the APBT and of course formed the basis for the American version. They were pit fighting dogs.
    
    So why are they not banned “pit bulls”?
    
    Because bans have nothing to do with the dogs…
    - on July 5, 2010 at 1:24 pm urocyon
      
      Sorry for the late comment. It is actually very, erm, interesting how the UK breed-specific ban is set up:
      
      “Whether your dog is a banned type depends on what your dog actually looks like, rather than the breed or name by which it is called.
      
      If your dog matches many of the characteristics of a Pit Bull Terrier, it may be treated as a banned type, no matter what type or breed its parents were. (Cross-bred and mongrel dogs can have the characteristics of a Pit Bull Terrier.)…
      
      Some kinds of American Bulldogs have been found to be Pit Bull types.”
      
      American and Irish Staffies are mentioned as banned. English Staffies are very specifically excluded, being one of the most popular breeds. Presumably, English Staffie mixes (and other non-registered dogs) can be seized.
      
      Ridiculous, all around.
      
      Good thing ours has readily accessible KC papers, especially since he’s bigger than average! I’m still glad the couple of people who have mistaken him for an APBT were not cops.
- on April 4, 2010 at 9:16 pm Rinalia
  
  I once had a man who told me Mina and Celeste were cute sisters. Mina is a 38lb American Pit Bull Terrier. Celeste is a 55 lb mutt with a black and tan, medium-length coat, blue eyes, funky ears and a narrow face. I nodded and smiled.
  
  I fostered a Staffordshire Bull Terrier once. She was 30 lbs of solid muscle with a head the size of a watermelon. I named her Sage. I adored her. She was adopted by a couple with a Jack Russell Terrier, Pepsi. They sent me photos for a few years after her adoption. Pepsi ruled the roost. I should try and find those photos!
  - on April 4, 2010 at 9:20 pm retrieverman
    
    Staffies are probably my favorite of the bully breeds (no offense).
    
    I associate them with Australia. They are awfully common there. The clip actually comes from an Australian Staffie breeder (hence the Waifs), and because our bull and terrier breeds are not well received in that country, the Staffie gets the blame.
    - on April 4, 2010 at 9:27 pm Rinalia
      
      None taken. I would love a SBT. They are the perfect size with the outgoing, dorky, dedicated personality of APBTs. Plus, those heads! Few dogs have such mush-worthy noggins.
      
      Unfortunately, unlike in Australia and the UK, they are few and far between where I live. Perhaps I should say fortunately. Too much popularity rarely bodes well for the dogs.
      - on April 4, 2010 at 9:28 pm retrieverman
        
        Popularity being bad for a breed of dog?
        
        I’ve never heard of such a thing :).
      - on April 4, 2010 at 11:04 pm retrieverman
        
        Go with a ninja:
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 12:23 am Rinalia
        
        I will let her know – when it’s time for the spectacular mauling, she needs to be in her ninja gear (which is perhaps reason enough for the mauling, right?) :)
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 7:06 am Pibble
        
        Okay! Ninja has my vote. Although, I think Mina might direct her anger toward me by the looks of this picture.
    - on April 5, 2010 at 1:11 am Jess
      
      I associate them with the UK. People cross them with Whippets and Greyhounds to produce a more robust running dog. The crosses are very attractive.
      
      It always surprises me how small Staffies are. I keep expecting them to be bigger.
on April 4, 2010 at 8:48 pm Pibble

@Independent George: You really read that someone jumps in between two fighting dogs to separate them? I would bet that’s the last thing that person does, ever. Anyone putting themselves between two dogs of any breed who are fighting really has it coming.

@Christopher: Yes, “bad” people are breeding for a muscular, stocky, and strong dog. Add to that isolation and lack of socialization which will help make any dog mean, aggressive and ready for fighting. These dogs’ physical build happens to help as well.

True “pibble people” never claim Pit Bulls are for everyone, nor do we put all of our money on training; a whole lot more goes into a happy, healthy dog-dog or dog-human relationship.

And, if you believe, without question, everything you read in the media, I’m sorry. You should check out KC Dog Blog (http://btoellner.typepad.com). Brent often summarizes media stories focusing on dog bites and attacks. The media has been very unfair to certain “breeds” of dogs when it comes to reporting. But the media needs sensationalism to sell, doesn’t it.

@Rinalia: Will Mina be wearing her cow outfit when she bites in SPECTACULAR fashion? Because if she does, I want a picture.

@EmilyS: :)
- on April 4, 2010 at 9:12 pm Rinalia
  
  Oh yes. Or her skunk outfit. But more likely, her ninja outfit, because that fits perfectly with a SPECTACULAR but stealthy attack. She did ram her head into my face this morning, which I can only assume is a precursor for Things To Come.
- on April 4, 2010 at 11:14 pm Independent George
  
  @Independent George: You really read that someone jumps in between two fighting dogs to separate them? I would bet that’s the last thing that person does, ever. Anyone putting themselves between two dogs of any breed who are fighting really has it coming.
  
  I’ve not only read it, I’ve seen video of them doing just that. I’m not going to post the link, because I never want to see it again, but they wheelbarrow the dogs and pull them apart while the fight is still active.
on April 4, 2010 at 11:59 pm Bill

What is a “break stick”? Why do pit type rescue and advocate groups recommend that all responsible owners of these dogs carry and know how to use one?

If they are so helpful, shoulnt all dog owners of any breed have one of these in case the unexpected happens?
- on April 5, 2010 at 12:02 am retrieverman
  
  Don’t need the with staffies.
  
  Staffies are English and have been not been bred for anything other than to look at for a very long time.
  - on April 6, 2010 at 10:50 am cyborgsuzy
    
    Yet if one were to teleport to an American shelter it would be labeled a pit or pit mix and many times killed without even an evaluation.
- on April 5, 2010 at 12:36 am Rinalia
  
  Bill, I don’t speak for all Pit Bull guardians/rescuers/etc, but I think the promotion of a break stick as a necessity for Pit Bull owners has been detrimental. I for one do not believe they are a vital tool for a Pit Bull owner nor do I believe the lack of one indicates irresponsible ownership.
  
  They are, in my opinion, useful in very limited circumstances in which you know the dogs, know they won’t redirect onto you, and know that they have a hard, dedicated grip. And that is regardless of whether the dog is a Pit Bull type dog or not.
on April 5, 2010 at 12:49 am Bill

Oh cool, so just lobotomized fighting dogs? I have a replica samurai sword. It’s dull as a butter knife, so I can certainly see the appeal of these dogs.

I bet it’s fun as hell to let these guys off lead at the dog park just to freak out all the yuppies with Cavaliers. Everyone gets a good laugh when you tell them it’s just an SBT, not a linebred Chinaman x Hubcap grand champion.
- on April 5, 2010 at 7:05 am Pibble
  
  I’m not speaking for all Pit Bull owners, but a majority of us would not take our dogs to a dog park. But I see the, um, humor in your point.
  - on April 5, 2010 at 8:12 am Bill
    
    Wait, why woulnt you take them to the dog park? My dogs love the one in our neighborhood. It is a large box-shaped enclosure where they can play with other dogs without the worry of getting hit by cars.
    
    The fence is quite high. I’d bet even a pit would have trouble “jumping the box” so to speak.
    - on April 5, 2010 at 9:50 am Eleanor
      
      I wouldn’t take any dog to a dog park, ever, and I’ve got retrievers. One doesn’t know those dogs, their health status, their temperament, or whether their owners have a clue.
      
      I see this as somewhere between flirting with disaster and begging for trouble.
      
      It seems especially sensible to avoid them with bull breeds and other power breeds, if only because they’re bound to be blamed for anything that happens regardless of the true cause.
      - on April 5, 2010 at 10:28 am Bill
        
        My dogs would be pretty bummed if I canceled their Friday morning dog park time. I have just ordered a breaking stick off the Internet (strange website, btw), so at least o can be prepared to help if my guys ever get into a disagreement.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 10:59 am EmilyS
        
        bad idea, Bill. If your dogs get into a fight and you try to intervene in this way, you’ll get bitten. That’s what you would expect your dogs to do.
        
        Oh, are you being “funny”?
on April 5, 2010 at 12:59 am Bill

Rinalia,

so if I had a Brittany got into a fight with a beagle, this would be a useful tool?

I bet guys who run packs of hounds or braces of pointers must go through dozens of break sticks a season.
- on April 5, 2010 at 12:48 pm Rinalia
  
  Bill, you were not posing a serious question, were you? I get that now. I’m not going to play along. You dislike Pit Bulls. Don’t think I didn’t notice your leading statements. I did. I just hoped you were more interested in talking about the issues. But you are not. Tootles.
on April 5, 2010 at 8:11 am ruffinbt

SBTs are known as The Children’s Nanny. I am positive that there has never been a mauling or death due to a Staffy. That is just a name picked out of the list of breed names that sounds like “pit bull”. Staffies are ALWAYS named in the breed bans! South Milwaukee picked out the name Miniature Bull Terrier to include in their bans, but did not include Bull Terrier. The morons creating BSL have no idea or knowledge of the breeds they are banning. I believe too that Dude and his friends on the corner are crossing whatever tough dogs they can find, they don’t care if they are purebred.
- on April 5, 2010 at 9:45 am retrieverman
  
  Did you know that all colored bull terriers are derived from crossing in six Staffies and one bulldog/ Manchester terrier cross?
on April 5, 2010 at 8:52 am Sengimage

I had a conversation with Spanky, Alfalpha, and Buckwheat. They swear their ASBT wouldn’t hurt a fly. Is a perfect family dog and is not outwardly aggressive to people or other dogs.

My Sister’s pair of ASBT are excellent with her 3 children. I’ll admit that they are powerful and posses a massive skull with powerful muscles around the skull to pull that trap-jaw mouth shut on a hanging tire with a spring scale attached. Yes they hang there and pull and tug. But they seem to enjoy it. And if it serves to provide exercise fitting to this breed then its all good.

Now introducing a new dog to them would be a bit hair raising. There was the usual snarking and growling along with the typical posturing, so it took a lot of courage to let any of my dogs loose in her backyard with them….. But they settled down to some rough play and that was it.

It really doesn’t live up to the stereotype cast upon them from all the years of breeding them for fighting in a ring.

Which ….

Would be no better than Breeding for a racer. Again, a short lived dog in competition, but the chances of a racer at least retiring with all its extremities intact are much better.

Again, the dopey nature of these dogs as pups makes for a lot of fun, they keep that dopey-ness as adults from what I’ve witnessed. So as far as a pet…there are many households that would meet the demands of either the English or the American variant.

Hmmmm, I wonder if crossed with a Flattie if it would produce a dog that would retrieve a downed moose, drop it ant my feet then go back out and flush some wild buffallo.

or….

Play a game of retrieve using a bowling ball and nine pins. Hmmmmm. I’m sure it would have some kind of vigor.

;-)
on April 5, 2010 at 10:58 am EmilyS

oy.. break sticks. OK: “pit bull” advocates all accept that the bull/terrier breeds derive a bite/hold tenacity from their bulldog heritage. You know: they were bred to grab bulls by the nose and hold them for the butcher. This trait has nothing to do with “aggression”. So yes, it is true: the dogfighters used a “break stick” (basically a wooden pry bar) to open the jaws of one of the dog with the hold. And it IS still suggested as the quickest, safest way to separate 2 “pit bulls”. NOT recommended on most dog breeds, which WILL direct onto a human that is intervening. http://www.realpitbull.com/breakstick.html

But while the APBT was indeed selected not to redirect onto humans (handers were indeed in the pit with the dogs and did indeed periodically separate them), most of what people call “pit bulls” are not purebred and I certainly wouldn’t use a break stick on any dog I wasn’t sure about

As for dogparks, they suck, full of nasty dogs, stupid owners and diseases. Mature “pit bulls” and dogparks are a bad idea not so much because of the dog, but because any altercation between a “pit bull” and another dog will be blamed on the “pit bull”, and we don’t need that. http://badrap.org/rescue/dogpark.html
- on April 5, 2010 at 11:34 am Sengimage
  
  A video camera might even reveal that the “other dog” may have caused a situation. Nut, somehow I think that the “pit bull” would still get blamed?
- on April 5, 2010 at 11:38 am bill
  
  That cant be right? Is a tenacious bite/hold style of a pit more damaging to dog/people flesh, or is it just “different” than the biting style of say, a Clumber?
  
  I have heard that pits “lock their jaws”, but a passing knowlege of anatomy would suggest this myth is silly. But i cant square that with the suggestion that alll responsible owners carry a jaw pry bar at all times.
  - on April 5, 2010 at 11:46 am Sengimage
    
    Would a “Bite Stick” work on any dog?
    
    I know the Pits just have tremendous jaw muscles (isn’t that a molosor thing?) . And the reason for those BIG melon heads. And possibly could snap a joint or tear a ligament on another dog if they clamp down on a limb. But once they are thrashing about…. you would have to be just as tenacious as the dog to hold it down and put the stick in there?
    
    Two of my Flatties can get into a disagreement now and then, Mostly growling and some raised hair, but when they do have a disagreement. I would still not like to get in there with a stick. ?????
    - on April 5, 2010 at 12:07 pm EmilyS
      
      “Bite strength” is largely a psychological, not a physical, trait. The physical aspect is correlated to size, not breed.
      http://lassiegethelp.blogspot.com/2008/01/dog-bites-and-bite-force.html
      
      Sengimange, you would have to be willing to watch dogfight tapes to see why bite sticks can be used, certainly not something I recommend because they are disgusting and appalling. There is actually NOT a lot of flailing and thrashing. The handlers can grab the dogs by the legs and immobilize them from the back end.
  - on April 5, 2010 at 12:59 pm Pibble
    
    Bill, you’re just leading us on.
    
    I volunteer at a shelter and I’ve never been bitten by any of our Pit Bulls. Over they years, I’ve been bitten by a Pomeranian, Chihuahua, and a number of other dogs that seem to like the taste of my blood. But never a Pit Bull.
    
    I don’t like dog parks in general. I’m not crazy about tossing a bunch of dogs together to see what happens; I’d rather bring my dogs to a friends house and have them play there with dogs I know and I know have been vaccinated.
    
    Have fun with your new break stick. I hope you never have to use it because you’re bound to get hurt.
    - on April 5, 2010 at 2:12 pm Sengimage
      
      Okay, that makes sense actually. When my guys have scrapped we usually grab a tail and wait for them to release, not long actually but we’d rather not have to wait at all and get back into play mode. So a bite stick would end it quicker?
      - on April 5, 2010 at 2:24 pm Rinalia
        
        A break stick is only going to work on a dog who:
        a) grips and holds
        b) won’t redirect onto a human
        c) is fighting a dog who also is gripping and holding (or who isn’t going to nail you while you try to insert a break stick into the other dog’s mouth).
        
        For your dogs, it does not sound like it would be useful.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 2:37 pm retrieverman
        
        I didn’t realize people didn’t know the difference between Staffies and AmStaffs/ Pit Bulls:
        
        The Staffie is from England and is just a little bit bigger than a beagle.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 7:19 pm EmilyS
        
        bleh.. some of those AmStaffs are not.
        Take out all the APBT (I assume what they mean by “pit bull”)/AST photos and shuffle them together and no one could tell which was which. As for 30-60 pounds in the APBT? We should only WISH there were still 30 pound APBTs. You can hardly find 30 pound SBTs anymore, even in England.
        
        Most people think my SBT is a “miniature pit bull” and even the dogsavvy people I hang with rarely know what breed he is, having never seen one before. As for size, he is 15.75 inches and 36 pounds, EXACTLY to the standard, which means he looks like a shrimp in the show ring next to the increasingly too-large other American SBTs.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 7:24 pm retrieverman
        
        I don’t use”American pit bull terrier” because it’s a cumbersome a name as Nova Scotia Duck-tolling retriever. There are no English or German pit bull terriers, so why throw American in there? It’s a useless, redundant word.
        
        I will call them pit bull terriers.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 8:17 pm EmilyS
        
        yes, I know you have that quirk.
        But to me, calling the APBT a “pit bull terrier” because the American is redundant would be like me calling your dog a “retriever” because “golden” is redundant.
        
        Not to mention that the APBT is (possibly) a different breed from the AST and certainly from the SBT. And also the tendency to call anything with a square head and short hair a “pit bull”.
        
        But at least you give them the “terrier” part!
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 8:47 pm retrieverman
        
        Because they are bull and terriers.
        
        Those are their ancestors.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 9:56 pm Rinalia
        
        A few of the Vick dogs were SBTs. When I met Audie (http://vickdogsblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/two-on-two-off.html), I surprised his owner by recognizing him as an SBT, not an APBT/AST. Johnny Justice is an SBT too.
        
        Mina, my APBT is 38 lbs, though the vet prefers her at 40-42 lbs. I like her at 40lbs. She is the ideal size of dog, for me. I love seeing 35-45 lb APBTs, it’s a breath of fresh air, so to speak. Most people think Mina is a puppy or too small to be an APBT.
        
        The SBT I fostered was about 30 lbs. She was the perfect size. It is unfortunate that the SBT is being Americanized and supersized. I’d like my next dog to be an SBT – I hope, when that happens, there will be a 30 lb SBT in rescue for me!
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 10:40 pm Bill
        
        What in the world would Bad News Kennels want an SBT for? I thought we just established that they are not game at all. Just a bull and terrier.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 10:49 pm Rinalia
        
        I don’t know. Audie is a high-energy, drivey dog. But he wasn’t fought, and he’s pretty dog social.
        
        Now, if you consider a dog who is drivey, people-focused, dog social and dedicated to the task at hand a “game dog”, then sure, I suppose Audie is one. But then there are a lot of game dogs out there, eh? But I don’t know what your definition of “game” is, nor do I really care. It’s a misunderstood, misused term that inspires unusually heated debates (most of which I find silly). You either like a dog’s temperament, intensity, activity level, phenotype, behavior, etc. ad naseum or you don’t. :)
        
        As to Vick, I can’t say I know what went on in the head of a person who choked and electrocuted dogs to death.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 10:55 am cyborgsuzy
        
        Which is just more evidence that scum who breed fighting dogs are going as much for looks as for any other trait.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 2:39 pm retrieverman
        
        I hate to have a discussion of “fighting styles.”
        
        But bull and terrier types grip.
        
        Other dogs don’t really do this when in a scuffle.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 3:25 pm Rinalia
        
        Mina would! She does not grip. Mostly, she ends up belly up, confused as to why a dog is trying to eat her. She loses against Celeste at tug-o-war pretty much every time.
        
        I just do not think generalized “fighting” breed behavior is useful in real-world situations. Like if I saw two dogs fighting, I wouldn’t assume anything about either dog’s behavior toward human interlopers based on their breed.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 3:28 pm retrieverman
        
        I didn’t say that they all did.
        
        I sad that the the only dogs that grip like this are bull and terrier type and possibly other descendants of the Medieval Alaunt.
        
        Your Mina’s ancestors traveled out of Georgia in the Middle Ages in Western Europe.
        
        I’ve got loads of info on the evolution of the Western bulldog and bull and terrier types, if you’re interested.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 9:59 pm Rinalia
        
        I’m always interested. I love dogs, but I do not know much about their ancestry, including bull and terrier types.
        
        One dog trainer said Mina was a classic OFRN. I had no clue what that was. She said Old Family of Red Noses. Like capitalized and all. Enlighten me!
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 2:40 pm retrieverman
        
        My rule is that if it has ears that have been cropped so that it looks like a devil, it’s probably not a staffie.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 3:26 pm Rinalia
        
        Which is funny sad because the SBT is starting to become known less as the “nanny dog” and more as the “devil dog” in the UK. Pit Bulls are already on the devil dog roster, of course.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 2:47 pm retrieverman
        
        Rinalia,
        
        Have you ever heard of this breed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Paul_Terrier
        
        It reminds me of this coloration in the pit bull: http://www.808bluepitbull.com/labels/808%20Blue%20Pitbull.html
        
        I suspect that some of the blues currently being offered today have a touch of Neapolitan mastiff in them.
        
        They tend to be bigger and coarser dogs.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 8:04 pm Pibble
        
        Are these similar to blue-nose Pit Bulls?
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 8:29 pm EmilyS
        
        blue has always been a color in the SBT/APBT and AST. It used to be unusual, but now too many breeders are selecting for that color. Many blue dogs have a variety of health issues including allergies. There’s no doubt that the fad for bigger coarser dogs comes from breeding in some of the mastiff types as well as English bulldogs There are even some people claiming an “American Bully” breed. You can google it up; they are awful looking creatures.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 8:47 pm retrieverman
        
        Bandogges?
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 6:25 am Pibble
        
        I wouldn’t say they’re awful looking, but they’re being pushed as a new “breed.” That’s the awful part, to me, especially if they’re breeding an animal that has health issues.
      - on April 5, 2010 at 2:33 pm Pibble
        
        Sengimage, I wouldn’t grab their tails; grab the back legs/feet. Then, you’re destabilizing them. They have nothing to push with anymore. Be quick about it; always be ready for a redirect. Grabbing a tail could end up hurting them.
        
        Rinalia is absolutely, positively correct. You have to know your dogs to use a break stick. Your hand(s) will be right at the dog’s mouth. Are you comfortable with that? I’m not, not when a dog is seriously fighting.
        
        on April 5, 2010 at 2:57 pm Sengimage
        
        Thanks. Thats sounds like such common sense. It does take all the leverage right out … no traction. Simple and direct.
on April 5, 2010 at 1:23 pm bill

Pibble,

You are not right. The guy from the website i bought it from told me to insert it right behind the molars and turn like i’m revving a motorcycle. Seems fairly straightforward.

I think it’s more than a little breed bigoted to say that a break stick is a necessary tool for owners of pit bulls, but not for Irish Setters. Dogs are dogs, unpredictable. None are inherently more “dangerous” when they bite than others.
- on April 5, 2010 at 2:35 pm Pibble
  
  Why don’t you try that, Bill. I suggest trying it on a Caucasian Shepherd. Let us know how you make out, ‘kay?
on April 5, 2010 at 3:28 pm bill

I was researching how to cancel the order on my break stick and came across the following article that said:

“Vinny has not got CHINAMAN in his corner and even though CHINAMAN and Vinny had a strong bound between them, Vinny told me he was scared to hold CHINAMAN in the corner because he would go nuts when removed from his victim and do ANYTHING TO GET BACK. Rockin Robin’s dog was a snapping turning dog that would grab CHINAMAN by the nose and run with it.”

Source:

http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/Stanleyspitbulls/Chinaman.html

This would suggest one of the most famous and experienced pit bull handlers in history was physically AFRAID of one of the MOST FAMOUS pit bulls in history. Wouldnt this be very very strong evidence that the whole “dog agression is totally separate from human agression” argument is total BS? Not to mention the idea that these dogs are specifically bred not to bite people?

I mean say, what you want about dogmen, but they knew their pits, and Chinaman sired literally hundreds of puppies.

What am i mising?
- on April 5, 2010 at 5:28 pm Pibble
  
  A brain? I think it’s time for Retrieverman to take care of this troll.
- on April 5, 2010 at 6:11 pm retrieverman
  
  What you’re missing is that dog fighting has been illegal for several decades.
  
  A staffie is a bull and terrier breed that hasn’t been bred for fighting for a very long time.
  
  The AmStaff and the pit bull type are American breeds. Some have been bred for fighting.
  
  Most have not.
  
  Indeed, these animals were common and popular family pets in the United States for many, many years. They were our version of the English show dog called a bull terrier. We called them American bull terriers.
  
  Some of these dogs might have tendencies toward aggression, but responsible people take precautions to keep their dogs out of trouble.
  
  Boxers and these type of dogs have a common ancestry. A boxer can be just as dangerous, and these do exist.
  
  But no one wants to ban boxers.
  
  I’ve not seen pedigrees but I don’t think we can logically say that all the AmStaffs and pit bulls derive from fighting bred stock.
  - on April 5, 2010 at 7:54 pm Pibble
    
    Ah, Retrieverman, I do envy your coolheadedness!
    - on April 5, 2010 at 9:17 pm Bill
      
      I text while I drive sometimes. It’s selfish, irresponsible, and statistically probably more dangerous than owning a red nosed pit bull.
      
      But I sure as hell don’t go around saying how great it is, and how it’s just as safe a choice as other styles of driving. Noone serious wants these dogs banned, but their appeal (apart from hog hunters and dogfighters) is fun to talk about, imo.
      - on April 5, 2010 at 10:05 pm Rinalia
        
        “but their appeal (apart from hog hunters and dogfighters) is fun to talk about, imo. ”
        
        I liked Mina because she was soft, gentle, people-focused and friendly (but sweetly shy). I like her as a companion.
        
        I know, real fun right?
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 6:26 am Pibble
        
        What about the mean part? She’s got that de-stuffing gene, right? Soooo unpredictable. Or, maybe it’s predictable…
  - on April 5, 2010 at 8:50 pm Bill
    
    You are right about the staffie. I agreed up top that they are “replica dogs” They are rare and usually do nothing more than make people nervous.
    
    Because dog bloodsports have been illegal for a long while, does that mean it’s particularly uncommon? Who do you think kept the amstaff and pit bull going after the “Petey” dog era through the 60s, 70s and 80s and into the 90s when their popularity saw a significant resurgance? Not pet breeders, there were nearly none and not much market existed for friendly pits in the 1970s and 80s. GSDs and then Rotts were the choice of d-bags.
- on April 6, 2010 at 10:59 am cyborgsuzy
  
  OH, hay guyz, he’s just asking.
  
  Get this concern troll outta here.
on April 5, 2010 at 6:30 pm Bill

I don’t know if that is some Internet insult or what, but I’m just asking a question. I invite you to ignore me, or more helpfully, tell me why that document is a total fraud (a possibility as I found It online) or why I am misunderstanding what the author is saying about a very influentail stud in your breed, whose lines are very in demand today.
- on April 5, 2010 at 6:33 pm retrieverman
  
  It’s not a false document.
  
  However, unlike retrievers, you can’t prove that all the dogs of this type descend from dogs like this.
  
  I can go through retriever pedigrees all the way back to the mid-nineteenth century.
  
  Good luck digging through the pedigrees of these dogs.
  
  Breeding bulldogs to terriers was a common occurrence.
  
  Lots of different lines.
- on April 5, 2010 at 6:37 pm retrieverman
  
  When I was in law school, I saw photos of the classes from the early part of the twentieth century. The mascot was a pit bull. It wasn’t a bull terrier. The head shape had already changed between EBT’s and American bull and terrier types.
  
  These were the dogs that all up and coming families kept.
  
  Because some people have been morons with them does not mean that they are all descended from morons’ dogs.
  
  You know even the Boston terrier is derived from this type of dog (plus some Frenchie).
- on April 6, 2010 at 9:01 pm cyborgsuzy
  
  What would be helpful is if bill would stop begging the question, and would go back to the bridge s/he crawled out from under.
on April 5, 2010 at 7:07 pm Bill

But there are A LOT more ads online for puppies from Jeep/chinaman/dibo etc. lines than ads for Petey from Our Gang lines. My ( total) guess is that there is a lot more championdogfighting blood out there than old time family pit bull blood, especially in the South.

A casual observer reading my local paper clssifieds would think breeding for gameness is alive and well.

Are there any guestmates re: how many organized dog fights took place in the US last weekend? What happens to all the non culled washouts?
- on April 5, 2010 at 7:22 pm retrieverman
  
  Maybe in your area.
  
  In my area, they are sold as pets.
  
  Good temperament is something that is being selected for.
- on April 5, 2010 at 8:21 pm Sengimage
  
  Bill, There are many breeders who frequent here that will swear that just because a dog comes from champion line doesn’t mean its from a good line. Oh wait a minute… Who am I kidding? They would actually swear that their champion lines only produce the best dogs.
  
  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
  
  ;-)
  - on April 5, 2010 at 10:23 pm EmilyS
    
    well, Chinaman was indeed known as a manbiter… the primary reason he is so talked about is because he was unusual in this regard. As for his descendants, people claiming to have Chinaman/Jeep/Bolio/Eli dogs etc etc for sale are mainly pimply faced boys hiding behind their computers, who don’t even have dogs. But of course, everything is true on the Internet, eh Bill? I hope you’re not joining the truly creepy and cretinous cult of the gamedog.. you sure are frequenting their websites alot.
    
    And BTW, people who obsess about dogfighting are barely better than the people who actually DO it.. and as much a cause for the current dogfighting craze as the old time secretive dogmen. THEIR dogs never were in the headlines.. and in fact even the current pit fighting dogs only make the headlines when their owners are busted. And sorry to tell you Bill, the allegedly fighting dogs that aren’t wantonly killed (as they formerly were) are proving to be just nice normal dogs, who are often actually other dog-social/tolerant. I know this notion makes your head spin around from cognitive dissonance, but it is simply the truth.
    - on April 5, 2010 at 11:07 pm Bill
      
      Emily, I don’t know what congnative dissonance means but what makes my headspin is your doublespeak. Show me where it is written that the main reason he’s remembered is biting people, from what I can tell it ismentioned in passing as his record is discussed.
      
      No, I am not startng a dogfight op. My spaniels have heart, but I think we’d be uncompetitive. Some would say, however that people like you are are worse than dogfighters, most of whom live out in the woods. At least they don’t bring these things to PetSmart and encourage hipsters in Brooklyn to “adopt” them.
      - on April 6, 2010 at 10:03 am EmilyS
        
        don’t know what cognitive dissonance is? hey, you can look it up.. on the Internet!
on April 5, 2010 at 7:20 pm Sengimage

Buster Brown, anyone. Wasn’t that a PBT?
- on April 5, 2010 at 7:52 pm Pibble
  
  He started out as a Boston terrier (http://www.ameshistoricalsociety.org/exhibits/tribune/07/wf_0744.htm) then it looks like he may have been a PB or an AmStaff in some of the drawings. In one of the pictures at this link, I think there’s a Boxer… Anyone else have a guess on this one?
  
  It’s amazing how many PBs (and possibly AmStaffs) have been icons in American history.
  - on April 5, 2010 at 8:10 pm EmilyS
    
    but in the original drawings, he’s clearly a pit bull type.
    - on April 5, 2010 at 8:12 pm Pibble
      
      I agree! That’s why I decided to look it up, and I was surprised that he was a Boston terrier at the beginning.
      - on April 5, 2010 at 10:28 pm EmilyS
        
        this is one of my favorite Tige images:
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 6:31 am Pibble
        
        See how fun PBs can be? They even dance!
  - on April 5, 2010 at 10:13 pm ruthcrisler
    
    Including my favorite, at least in part, Nipper the RCA dog. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipper
- on April 6, 2010 at 6:30 am Pibble
  
  Bill – Huh?
  
  When did we start encouraging “hipsters” to adopt Pit Bulls? Or fight them? I think it’s clear that the people on this thread are pet owners who love and care for their animals, regardless of their breed.
  - on April 6, 2010 at 8:54 am Sengimage
    
    We all find something romantic or glamorous about the history of our selected breed. There is certainly a colorful history behind the fighting world of dogs. It was done for centuries and practiced among many cultures…. So. There is a long history. From the elite class back in roman times to the working class in the 18th century then the underground in our times. Some might see a glamour, or intrigue.
    
    I don’t think that would mean they are enamored with the fighting potential. Maybe more like, “yeah its my dog and he’s a great companion that has a fighting dog history”????
    
    I don’t think Bill is like that “hipster”or “Micheal Vic”, perhaps just cornered right now because the pit bulls here are challenging him and he’s really not said anything offensive. He knows his dogs. And clearly a bit about their history, not necessarily their lineage. But he knows the history. And he likes his dogs knows his dogs. Loves them. So I’m willing to bet they are good dogs.
    
    When my sister got married and moved down to the outskirts of New Orleans, her Husband bought her an American Pitbull Terrior. He did it because her nights out cycling took her past some pretty seedy neighborhoods and her being only 102Lbs at 5’2″ she was an easy target. The reputation of the Dog was enough to keep people from thinking about bothering her. And at a full grown 110+ lbs and rippling with muscles, this is a very intimidating dog. When she got her second one, she was untouchable in the eyes of those “hipsters”.
    
    But, make no mistake. Her dogs would attack any child that came near with a barrage of licks. OOh it was dangerous. If however any one approach in a very abrupt manner her dogs were barking and ferocious looking, until she acknowledged the person approaching and barked out commands in german for them to heal and calm down.
    
    Yes German. Her husband is of german descent and chose to teach the dogs in german since it was clear the “hipsters” don’t speak the language and it would folly them if they tried to command her dogs to get to her.
    
    Well. Now she’s living in Massachusetts in the woods and her Dogs are still the dangerous licking monsters they always were. They take no prisoners and pay no mind to little dogs nipping at them, her 3 kids tugging on them or the little creatures that live in the area. They may stand off with bigger dogs, but all in play. And under supervision of course, just in case.
    - on April 6, 2010 at 10:05 am EmilyS
      
      an 100 pound dog is either extremely overweight, or not a purebred APBT. But I’m glad her dogs are great.
      
      (p.s. just trying to help RM get to that magic 100 comment mark!)
on April 6, 2010 at 10:11 am bill

Awesome anecdote.

Its just really interesting. This is not a significant public health issue. I mean, while disporportinate to other breeds, Pit types only kill and severly injure a few people per year (88 out of 158 fatal dog attacks were from Pits since 2005, 55%). If you were to make a pie chart of accidental deaths it would be a really, really small sliver (like smaller than lightning strikes small).

But there also is this bizarre situation where owners of good, trustworthy pit types love their dogs so much that they deny both statistics (blaming media conspiracy) and the very basics of selective breeding that suggest that their dogs are a lot more dangerous, on average, than other dogs.

They all have anecdotes about how nice their dogs are, which i’m sure are true. But the numbers (unless they are fabricated) don’t back them up.

Someday, someone will say something like: “Yes, my decision to choose/rescue/adopt this type of dog is statisically much, much more dangerous to other pet dogs and people than a decision to choose a dog breed without a fighting background.”

Feel free to ignore me, or just crush me with data that suggests the opposite of my claim, or real evidence of the vast media conspiracy/bias. But not anecdotes about your nice dog.
- on April 6, 2010 at 10:30 am Sengimage
  
  Bill, the statistics are built upon a generalization…..its more information based on the shelter statistics and rescues. It is common practice for them to “type” a dog based on look and outward appearance only.
  
  How many times have you gene to a shelter where they call every mix there by some purebred name?
  
  I’ve seen some really weird looking Chihuahuas and Jacks.
  
  Basically, they play into the desires of the public that goes there and tags each dog with a breed name. Thus skewing the statistics. And Bull Dog types gets labeled across the board as Pit Bulls. And basically if the dog is in the shelter more often than not its being given up due to some behavioral problems exacerbated by individuals who made an uneducated spontaneous purchase and caused more of the problems that someone else now has to deal with. “Ala Micheal Vic-ish”
  - on April 6, 2010 at 10:45 am bill
    
    Sengimage
    
    So a shelter’s labeling a dog that simply resembles a Pit Bull as a Pit Bull makes it MORE adoptable?
    
    I heard just the opposite, but i dont know what the average dog rescuer finds attractive in a potential adoptee.
    
    So then this smooth-coated molosser type dog with rippled muscles is forever incorrectly branded a “Pit Bull” by the shelter. And if/when havoc ensues, the statisitcs get skewed?
    - on April 6, 2010 at 11:39 am Sengimage
      
      Well, its a really tough one to call there Bill. The shelters by me are full of them. And with a trained eye you know most of them are far from a Pitbull, but also have some quirks about them. Its the job of the Shelter workers to ascertain the temperament, the dedicated workers do a good job, but when you’re over run with dogs coming in, its more likely they just don’t get around to it very often. So the no-kill shelters get a backlog of these dogs.
      
      And When the local thugs want a dog for a bait dog or possible fighting potential… they just go shopping and thus the cycle starts over. Or the lucky ones get some rehabilitation and find a suitable home with someone who is willing and has the time to deal with the associated problems.
      
      Most get transferred out to a kill shelter. But considering that one dog can father a litter of almost a dozen pups to many bitches….. oh well. The thugs will keep the cycle going and going.
      
      Lately the Cane Corso, Fila Brasilero types (REALLY BIG) seem to be the current fad of fighting mix…. The underground is driving the demand. But there are breeders who type for a calm temperament….
      
      Its your responsibility to research that. If the breeder isn’t coming to you, then you need to research the breed and the breeders. Meet with them, meet their dogs, ask to meet other clients who now have their pups, and see how much of a relationship they maintain with those clients. The burden of socializing isn’t completely upon the breeder’s shoulders. But the responsibility of placement is. And when matched correctly…. the problems with a violent and seriously aggressive dog….. NOT.
- on April 6, 2010 at 10:31 am Rinalia
  
  “But the numbers (unless they are fabricated) don’t back them up.”
  
  What numbers?
  
  The millions of Pit Bulls who don’t do anything of great significance or the few who do? You have evidence of the latter. The evidence of the former is called anecdotal, because no one has bothered to compile it in a form you find pleasing.
  
  My guess is you’re not interested in statistics any more than you are in anecdotes about my nice 11-yr-old Pit Bull.
  
  I will do my best to find the study for you, but one was done in Australia/New Zealand. They wanted to know if there was any bias in reporting of dog bites. And there was. Even though Pit Bulls comprised a small percentage of overall dog bites, they represented a large percentage of REPORTED dog bites. That is called a bias.
  
  Or, in Victorville, CA, if you search their news archive for dog attacks, you’ll discover that the only bites they’ve reported on have been Pit Bull attacks and one non Pit Bull attack. Thing is, they have one Pit Bull attack every 2-3 years. But they have 70-100 dog attacks annually. That is also called a bias.
  
  It seems a little disingenuous to argue there isn’t a media bias (I don’t think there is a conspiracy, that’s silly) when it comes to reporting dog attacks. It’s logical: Pit Bulls are controversial (partly b/c of the media, it’s irrational to argue against that) and they boost up viewership and comments. Media agencies like that, no duh. But my guess is your attempt at rational discussion, as I mentioned earlier, is also disingenuous (at best).
  - on April 6, 2010 at 11:28 am Sengimage
    
    Recently there have been more reports on the loving Golden Retriever Biting and mauling children. And its been put out there as public knowledge that at this point in time they are the number 3 biter in this country. Only coming in behind Rotweillers and German Shepherds which take the number one and two spot respectively.
    
    The statistics from Dog bite. com are dated and last I checked showed stats that were well over ten years old…. based off of police reports and media fodder. Not any real guidelines.
    
    The Pit Bull “type” is very common. and since society as a whole tends to label everything…. the breed as a whole takes a bad rap for many look alikes that were bred by the real hipsters that Bill is eluding to.
  - on April 6, 2010 at 12:13 pm EmilyS
    
    let me be the first, since Rinalia is being modest, to post this link to her recent explanation of why Bill (and people who think like him) is an idiot:
    
    http://for-the-pits.blogspot.com/2010/04/when-language-attacks.html
    
    I think we’ve learned that Bill isn’t interested in learning or discussing. He has already decided what he “knows”.. based on random websites he has discovered.
    
    The truth, as explained by Rinalia, Karen Delise, Brent Toellner and others who have actually examined news reporting and explained why it cannot be used to draw conclusions about dangerous dog breeds, is not of interest to him.
    - on April 6, 2010 at 12:53 pm retrieverman
      
      I was going to do a post on this post this evening.
      
      She did a really goo job explaining this issue there.
    - on April 6, 2010 at 1:25 pm bill
      
      Ok, im an idiot. Stories, we all have them. Deconstruct this one (of the 2 pit attacks in NYC obviously mis-identifications) from yesterday’s paper:
      
      So horrible: A 20-month-old boy is in serious but stable condition today after a pit bull mauled his face. Police sources say the dog became agitated when Elliot Korenblyun’s parents were arguing on Sunday morning, and that she abruptly tore into the boy. “I don’t understand how this happened,” mother Olga Volovnik, 24, tells the Daily News. “She suddenly attacked the baby, and then we were fighting to get her off.”
      
      A stunning Daily News photo of Volovnik depicts her covered in her son’s blood. Elliot needs reconstructive surgery to both sides of his face, but according to his dad, “Luckily, his eyes were saved.” Elliot’s father also said the dog, Gucci, was trying to defend Volovnik, who had raised her voice during the spat. “I was coming in from church, and I heard the lady yelling for help,” one unidentified neighbor tells the Post. “The [flesh] was hanging in three big pieces … The baby looked terrible.”
      
      Gucci, who is three years old, was taken to Animal Care & Control of New York City. His fate is uncertain; he’ll be monitored for 10 days and then either returned to the family, returned with restrictions, or put down, the Post reports. And there was a second pit bull attack yesterday in Queens, where a 28-year-old man was bitten by his pet. Details are scant, but the News reports that he’s in stable condition at New York Hospital Queens
      
      http://gothamist.com/2010/04/05/pit_bull_mauls_toddler_in_bensonhur.php
      - on April 6, 2010 at 2:00 pm Sengimage
        
        Bill At least in one account the answer to the question “What did you do to the dog” was very clear.
        
        Lots of dogs don’t react well to harsh tones. And the agitation is just going to escalate into an eventual release. Where its directed at is usually the closest perceived threat. In that case the kid might have been screaming or crying because its easy for a child to become agitated by two adults arguing in front of him/her. As a parent you need to realize this is what happens. Put the child close to a dog also in that agitated frame of mind…. And BOOM.
        
        Unfortunately it was Pit Bull Type, but it could also have just as easily been a Jack Russell, Small Spaniel or a Golden Retriever. But did you even take into account that in the urban areas like New York… that there would be more incidents specific to a breed based on the popularity of the breed? I mean when I grew up in New york…. everybody wanted a Pit Bull. Every shape and size…. They wanted that Pit Bull. And well just like Cocker Spaniels and Now Retrievers became so popular so did the bite statistics reflect that. In Urban areas…. the popular dogs tend to be the Pit Bull types. Its the way it is. Add Rotties and German Shepherds to that tally as well.
        
        What would truly be interesting and possibly and eye opener for you…..
        
        Take a census of dog breeds in specific Demographics then compare the incidents of reported bites in the demographic. Then see what the dog is that is doing the most biting.
        
        Basically if 80 out of 100 homes has a specific type of dog, then its only logical that the numbers for those types being reported is reflected in the stats.
        
        Sort of like reviewing the number of the crime stats for Black on Black crime in an area that is according to a census …. predominantly Black.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 2:13 pm bill
        
        “…and then we were fighting to get her off.”
        
        Are you saying two grown parents couldnt pull a spaniel or jack russel off while ripping the face off their toddler?
        
        THis has to go back to the the bite and shake style, no?
        
        This happended while we were arguing about this yesterday.
        
        Dogs are not people, i hate when we make racial correlations to dog breeds.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 3:13 pm Sengimage
        
        But literally breeds of dogs are perfectly analogous to races of people. We are all human, yet separated by cultural religious and ethnic differences. The same applies to dogs being separated by similar cultures behind them. There is a religious Dogma that shrouds each breed. So the correlations are relevant, especially since any demographic further separated based on race, religion or ethnicity may also reveal a preference for one breed over another specific to that group of people or a demographic. Thus inner urban city culture may just be more accustomed to one specific breed or type Vs another as a perceived sense of security, in most cases a false sense. So if you can imaging…. the thugs in the area casing homes will agree to avoid breaking into the homes with the BIG PIT. Or they may choose to break in to steal the BIG PITT. Who knows
        
        And literally flesh being what it is…. ask your self just how do I pull this dog latched onto my child’s face off of my child without removing his/her eye, nose or lips? Hell yes I imagine it would be difficult. And in a panic situation who knows was else may happen to touch off a chain reaction among other dogs in the house? You need to be a bit more open minded Bill. I see your perspective… But its not the end all be all. I take most statistics with a grain of salt. I tend to believe the people who have real world experience with the issues at hand “in the real world” and value their perspective more so than any doctored up statistics. If you want the truth I ask a Deputy Inspector for a precinct in NYC who happens to be my Brother in Law. Or a Geneticist Who happens to be my Sister. Or a Medical Doctor who happens to be my Brother in Law or a Veterinarian who happens to be my Best Man.
        
        You want lies… you follow the stats, then ask your self who’s behind them.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 3:15 pm retrieverman
        
        I don’t agree with that first part.
        
        Human races are not like dog breeds. Although we have genetic evidence for race, the differences between races of humans are far less extreme than the differences in behavior and phenotype between breeds of dog. It is not perfectly analogous.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 3:25 pm Sengimage
        
        Just as an example..it works to get the point across… I hope.
        
        Although DNA will tell you whether one man is Asian or African American or Female.
        
        Likewise,
        
        You can tell the differences between the breeds down to the color and the sex.
        
        Its not a parallel, but its similar.
        
        And the Dogma behind each breed is relevant, as there is a history associated with each that may appeal to one culture or demographic more so than another in the human societies, thus favoring one type over another.
        
        Otherwise when visiting my sister in New Orleans I would not have seen a Pitbull type at just about every other house.
        
        Or
        
        Why in the sticks of PA there are more retrievers and Borders collies than there are Pit Bull types.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 8:31 pm ruthcrisler
        
        “But literally breeds of dogs are perfectly analogous to races of people.”
        
        Danger, Will Robinson….
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 8:41 pm Sengimage
        
        Its just an example. LOL.
        
        But I get it.
        
        think of it in the theoretical sense and try not to be too literal. ;-)
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 9:19 pm cyborgsuzy
        
        There are parallels between racism and breedism. Discriminating against individuals based solely on looks, for example. But a lot of people who are actually affected by racism don’t like the two to be compared and I don’t blame them. Dogs aren’t psychologically affected, for one thing – they don’t care if they’re discriminated against.
        
        But, uh, yeah. Human race is a social construct. You can’t actually tell someone’s ‘race’ from their DNA with any accuracy.
        
        http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Lewontin/
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 9:37 pm Sengimage
        
        cyborgsuzy…We humans take on the burden of being psychologically affected for the dogs we bond with.
        
        And its far deeper than the color of one’s skin. But the point is the same. Variances being what they are…. the possibilities are infinite even in dogs… But back to schooling our friend Bill.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 8:35 pm Pibble
        
        A Jack is very difficult to pull off – it’s the terrier in him. I’ve had to pull my Jack off of my other dogs once in a while over the 12 years I’ve had him. Little bugger!
        
        Dogs are hunters, for the most part. “Bite and shake” is how they would kill their prey. It’s not just a Pit Bull “thing.”
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 8:59 pm ruthcrisler
        
        My Jack was the gamest creature I’ve ever met, and tenacious as all get out.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 10:01 pm Bill
        
        Then why isn’t a break stick a good choice for all dog (including JRT) owners?
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 11:17 pm EmilyS
        
        this has already been explained to you about 5 times in this thread. Do have the courtesy to READ the damn thing before you post anymore, eh?
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 9:55 am cyborgsuzy
        
        Now, bill, what were just saying about begging the question, hmm?
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 6:33 pm EmilyS
        
        “deconstruct” LOL! this from the person who claims not to know what “cognitive dissonance” is? You really are an intellectually dishonest one, aren’t you.
        
        But I’ll play:
        1) is it a “pit bull”? how do you know?
        1a) what IS a “pit bull”? and how do you tell?
        2) is it the only horrible attack on a child in NYC that week? If not (and of course it’s not, given the population of the city and so forth), why is it the one that is featured in the newspaper
        3) why are you googling news stories about pit bull attacks?
        
        4)speaking of delusions: do you really think you are changing anyone’s mind here?
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 8:07 pm Bill
        
        1. They showed a picture of the dog.
        2. No it was the second yesterday. Both are reported in the article, but the one with the toddler got top billing, not sure why.
        3. Ha! I just wrote “pitbull” into google news and it was the very first article. I was trying to avoid anecdotes, but couldn’t.
        4. I sure hope so. Why not?
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 8:32 pm Pibble
        
        Here’s a link to the article; the dog looks like a bully breed. http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/04/04/2010-04-04_pitbull_mauls_3yearold_brooklyn_boy_sending_him_to_the_hospital.html
        
        It’s from the New York Daily News. Sensationalism is their middle name, but if the woman pictured is the boy’s mom, she’s covered in blood. Not sure why the story isn’t in other area papers?
        
        Bill, I don’t understand why you don’t get our side of the discussion.
        
        We’re simply saying that the news mongers need something to hang their hats on. A couple of decades ago, Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Akitas, Dobermans – they were all targeted as devil dogs. Now, Pit Bulls are the target, but this time, the stigma has stuck and it’s not going away, especially in a world where 24 hours a day have to be filled with stories, the more gruesome, the better.
        
        Our point is that there are good dogs and there are bad dogs. If the bad dog is a Chocolate Lab, it’s not going to sell newspapers.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 8:43 pm Sengimage
        
        Pibble, if its any dog mauling a kid….it tends to make the news nowadays.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 9:00 pm Pibble
        
        Sengimage, true – you’re right. I meant a dog bite or attack. They’re less likely to make the news if the dog isn’t a Pit Bull. But if it’s an attack on a child, yes.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 9:55 pm Bill
        
        It doesn’t pass the BS test when Rush Limbaugh rails against Left-wing media bias, and it doesn’t pass when you make the EXACT same argument, only adding the racial stuff to boot.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 8:46 am Sengimage
        
        I’m doing that to give something “real world” as an example Bill. Being that I am an ethnic/racial minority…. I’m not uncomfortable bringing it up or using it to compare things to. Trying to find something to focus your attention on the “real world” aspect of things rather than believing everything you are gleening from the internet.
        
        Which as just another example….as a member of westernized society we are blind to how the world outside views us. However, the internet gives them a very skewed perspective of us since it is controlled for them and the news content they view doesn’t shelter much of what is actually happening. Likewise, the news in our society only shows us distractions that are over sensationalized to keep us from learning the truth.
        
        How many Americans don’t even know the name of their Vice President? Speaker of the house?
        
        Etc etc.
        
        Clearly Bill if you represent a demographic slice of America its the one that feeds off the sensational news and propaganda built upon statistics to support a given agenda.
        
        You know the ones living in this world but really don’t know about their world.
        
        Join us.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 8:42 pm Pibble
        
        Forgot to mention – I’m not surprised (but I am saddened) that the youngster was bitten by the dog.
        
        The dog was under extreme pressure caused by the argument in the household; dog and child were at eye-level; dog is challenged by child. Bite occurs. It could happen with any dog/child.
        
        “What did you do to the dog” does, unfortunately, apply.
        
        By the way, Bill, does the name Terrierman mean anything to you? Just asking.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 9:20 pm Bill
        
        I don’t understand the “what did you do to the dog?” thing. Is that a slogan or something? Seriously. I am new to the jargon.
        
        An argument in the house is a mitigating circumstance for a disfiguring pit bull bite?
        
        Yes, P. Burns’ blog is very cool. I called him a dick in the comments section of his site once. I wish I hadn’t. He doesn’t suffer fools.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 6:38 am Pibble
        
        “What did you do to the dog” refers to the fact that dogs aren’t creatures of logic.
        
        If you pull a dog’s tail, you shouldn’t be surprised if he reacts; some dogs do, some dogs don’t. They don’t say to themselves, “hmm. My tail was just pulled. It was a three-year-old child, so I won’t bite this time. If it’s a 20-year-old next time, I will bite.”
        
        Now, this is a crappy analogy, but I think you can get the idea I’m trying to get across.
        
        Dogs react to their environment. If you place a dog in a room with two people screaming at each other, a dog could absorb that energy (not a zen thing) and start to get nervous. That’s what it sounded like in this case. I had a German Shorthaired Pointer who got very upset when there was an argument in the house. My Aussie is that way now. My Pit Bull could care less.
        
        We don’t know the whole story. Did the couple start to argue and things got physical? Were objects thrown, was the kid crying or screaming. And again, the child was eye-level to the dog and became the perfect target, unfortunately.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 9:08 pm Sengimage
        
        Bill, is your assessment of the PitBull negative or positive.
        
        Sometimes I’m not sure with how you’re writing. But I think you know the dogs aren’t bad its bad people who make then bad.
        
        Sort of like how guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
        
        These dogs are so much more than a 4 legged can of whoopass.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 9:21 pm cyborgsuzy
        
        It’s hard to tell because bill is a perfect example of what the interwebs like to call a ‘concern troll’.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 11:16 pm EmilyS
        
        1) and you know through your ninja dogsense that it is a “pit bull”, eh?
        2) “not sure why” it got top billing? you’re lying
        3) proves our point: the newspapers pretty much only publish stories about pit bulls. Do you REALLY believe that pit bulls are the only dogs that bite?
        4) because everything you write has been a) wrong and/or b) a lie
      - on April 7, 2010 at 12:07 am Rinalia
        
        Hey Bill, what say you about this news story? http://www.wlbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=12259997
        
        There’s video of the dog.
        
        He ripped into the head of a 2-yr-old, started biting and shaking, needed to be beaten off.
        
        After you read that story and watch the video, check out this story and tell me, once again, that there isn’t a bias: http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20100402/NEWS/4020345/1001/Boy-survives-dog-mauling.
        
        First story calls the dog a black mouth cur dog. That’s also a mutt, so far as I can tell. The video shows a tan dog who no one would label a Pit Bull. But guess what the second article calls the dog? A Pit Bull mix.
        
        Or do victims of other dog attacks not warrant the level of concern you give to victims of “Pit bull” attacks? (That’s rhetorical.)
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 12:18 am retrieverman
        
        How about calling them American bull terriers?
        
        Then we have a very clear definition of what they are. There is an English bull terrier. There is a Staffordshire bull terrier, and they are all different.
        
        And we get rid of the pit bull word, which seems to bother so many.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 12:54 am EmilyS
        
        American bull terrier actually the name most fanciers wanted to call the AKC version and it would have made a lot of sense. But the (English) bull terrier people would not allow it.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 12:23 am retrieverman
        
        Oh, I disagree on one thing.
        
        Blackmouth curs are not mixed breeds. Cur in this context does not mean mongrel or mixed breed. It means what it meant in England until the end of the nineteenth century. Cur means multipurpose working dog. These curs are a landrace breed, not a mixed breed.
        
        The Catahoula is a cur, as is the blackmouth and the Mountain cur.
        
        It doesn’t mean mixed breed.
        
        These dogs never became fancy show dogs (until recently), and the show people used that term cur to denote dogs owned by working class people. I say that the term be taken from that bastardization and returned to its original meaning.
        
        Old Yeller was a cur (in this same context).
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 10:23 am Rinalia
        
        Fair enough. Still, when you look at the dog, does he look like a cur dog or a mixed breed?
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 10:28 am retrieverman
        
        Mixed breed.
        
        But it’s hard to tell.
        
        Curs aren’t standardized.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 12:25 pm bill
        
        I thought “Cur” was also common old-time slang for a pit bull that wouldn’t fight:
        
        http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/11711-getting-gamedog-cur.html
        
        http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080427112323AAAKr1q
        
        That could be one possibility for the discrepancy.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 1:35 pm retrieverman
        
        Cur:http://www.blackmouthcur.com/FAQs.htm#Doesnt%20the%20word%20cur
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 7:53 pm Rinalia
        
        Oh for cripes sake, Bill – look at the video of the darned dog. That is not a Pit Bull. I think even anti-dog zealots can see that!
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 8:14 pm retrieverman
        
        OMG!
        
        Pit bull attacked: http://www.hugpug.com/photos/sheba_layout/0710_06.jpg
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 8:17 pm retrieverman
        
        Pit bulls attack baby: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1354/787802592_0fcc2b7826.jpg
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 8:52 pm Bill
        
        Very cute pics.
        
        You have been (mostly) fair. As a lawyer you can appreciate discovery. I know there is some evidence that doesn’t help my case. This is a video of a seeing eye dog (a lab of all things) attacking a pit bull out of nowhere on a subway platform.
        
        So indeed, anything is possible, i am just talking about probabilities. I didnt watch the whole thing, but here it is:
        
        http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid10177795001?bctid=51284510001
        
        http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23771565-pitbull-savages-womans-guide-dog-at-station.do
        
        Can i embed video, or just you?
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 8:56 pm retrieverman
        
        I am not a lawyer, but I have been to law school…
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 9:07 pm Sengimage
        
        Bill? I see….. a young dude with A definite swagger and an air of arrogance strutting down passageways. Then stopping with his dog off lead to make of things a call on his cell phone.
        
        He then ran from the scene. After he beat his dog with obvious dog aggression off of another dog…… I’m willing to bet this young dude also may occasionally train his dog to fight, he certainly fits the age and the stereotype in both look and actions.
        
        Think it through….take in the whole scene and examine what’s going on. Taking the lead of of any dog is stupid in public to begin with. And in typical fashion the guy bolted from the scene. So not only is he the stereotype of a dumb thug, he is also irresponsible for running in the first place.
        
        As a fireman I would think you would have a much more analytical mind about such things.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 9:38 pm Bill
        
        Ugh…I should really have watched until the end. Nevermind.
        
        THe same thing happened when i told my buddies to go see The Crying Game, even though I had left the theatre early.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 9:46 pm Sengimage
        
        The guy was a definite AssHat.
        
        I like like term.
        
        ;-)
        
        (okay the threading threw me off here, this reply needs to be here not up there)
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 1:27 pm Pibble
        
        Deosn’t look like a Pit Bull to me.
        
        Doesn’t look like a Blackmouth Cur, but maybe a Mountain Cur?
        
        Or it’s a mixed breed. Of course, when I was a kid, 150 years ago, a cur was a mixed breed.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 2:38 pm bill
        
        Unless I read carelessley-
        
        The mother herself called him a pitbull mix in the second article.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 3:00 pm Sengimage
        
        Then you really need to check her credentials and see if she is qualified to make that statement. ;-)
        
        PitBull Mixed with, what?
        
        And where did she get this dog?
        
        How was it socialized as a puppy.
        
        What was the temperament of the parents?
        
        At what age was it taken from its mother?
        
        How much exposure to people? Sounds? Smells? Other dog?
        
        So many blanks here that to assume this woman even knew what the mix is….
        
        Well…. Think about that one.
- on April 6, 2010 at 11:09 am cyborgsuzy
  
  a) It’s media bias, not conspiracy. You want evidence of that, people have already provided you links.
  
  b) Adopting a short haired dog with a big head without knowing it’s pedigree means you get an animal that’s been labeled as a “pit bull” or mix, but doesn’t mean you get a dog from fighting breeders. “Pit bull” shaped dogs are popular pets. Get over it, as RM likes to say.
  
  c) You should probably see if you can find your info from a different website than dog bites dot org. There’s not much of a case for “pit bulls” to be considered more dangerous than other types of dogs.
  - on April 6, 2010 at 11:34 am bill
    
    So then we will get to the bottom of this.
    
    Either there are many millions of pit bulls out there that are responsible for a very small percentage of injuries/deaths compared to other types of of more dangerous dogs (2 or 3 out of 70 to 100 incidents per year)
    
    OR:
    
    Pits acount for 2-3% of all dogs and half of injuries and deaths, and are at least 160x more likely to injure a person than a golden retriever.
    
    I honestly don’t know which one of these is true. I think i do.
    
    If yours is true think of the market opportunity for a home insurer that runs the numbers and could make a killing profiting from the media bias and sensationalism, by courting pit type owners and offering them liability insurance at rates equal (or lower) than those of Cavalier owners.
    
    I havent seen it yet. I’ve seen the opposite (read the inurance thread on the pit owners forum). But would be fascinated by the business case.
    - on April 6, 2010 at 11:59 am Sengimage
      
      Well, Bill its a stereotype, which is hard to shed once its built upon. Its why affluent People look at the neighborhood they want to move into and take into account the racial demographic, because of the stereotypes associated with each race. Its the same with dogs…. Each breed being its own race. And the history behind each breed will build upon the stereotype that the breed is generalized with.
      
      That doesn’t mean the stereotype is fair or fitting and should apply across the board. But a few few ruin it for the majority. And its literally the human factor involved here that perpetuates the stereotypes and misinformation. And the poor Breeding practices are still driven by a seedy underground.
      
      The picture of oppulence fed to our inner city or small town youth by the mainstream music culture is also feeding into the stereotype by glamorizing the negatives.
      
      And thus it becomes a selling point for some venues and a point of contention for the snobbery. Emily S stated that Bite force is dictated by size. That is partially true. The other half of that is the amount of musculature and the SIZE of the skull. The fighting dogs are preferable bred with enormous heads that pack a whole lot of whoop-ass in that bite because there is a LOT of muscle powering that Jaw. The Underground capitalizes on that trait. The Insurance companies Also do. Because the potential for a massive amount of trauma from one powerful bite drive the mind behind both of those industries.
      
      The reality is, that the dog, any dog is only predictable in the fact that it will act and react like a dog. Even the best raised dog can become agitated or retaliatory to a negative stimulus and BOOM. An incident has occurred. This is not concentrated onto just Pit Bull type dogs. This applies to any type of dog, clearly a Golden Retriever or a Chihuhau has the ability to destroy a child’s face. But their reputation is not built upon a history of fighting. That was never their PURPOSE. But if a kid jams a pencil in a retriever ear like the one incident that happened not long ago in New Jersey…. 9 times out of ten the Dog is going to tag the stupid kid. Now imagine that happening with a dog with a bite force closer to the bone crushing strength of a Hyena. Odds are that kids gets it worse.
      
      The gamble the insurance companies are taking is that the type of dog will have a much more horrific incident. Not that the type of dog will be more prone to bite.
    - on April 6, 2010 at 12:10 pm cyborgsuzy
      
      Yes, let’s use logic and science to get to the bottom of this!
      
      Oh, wait, there actually aren’t good stats on bites/attacks/injuries by dog breed. Or breed numbers so we could put those stats in context. Or the dog population, period. And even if there WASN’T bias for reporting on sensational breeds, police, the media, and the general public can’t identify dog breeds very well anyway (and mixed breed dogs mess everything up anyway).
      
      I find it funny that I get labeled (oh we do love our labels, don’t we?) a pit bull ‘advocate’ whenever I speak out on this subject. I don’t own a pit bull type dog. I just like dogs, period. I hate seeing short haired dogs with big heads discriminated against for no good reason.
      
      Hey, I’ve got an idea! Until we have better breed-based evidence of “danger”, let’s judge each individual dog on its own merits. That way, people (even Thugs! With tattoos!) can own whatever type of dog they want, and if it behaves its whole life (despite or because of it’s genes), then the law can treat it just like any other dog that, well, behaves. We’d do everything we’re doing now: discourage poor breeding practices, prosecute dog fighters, match shelter dogs with families appropriate to their personalities, except we’d do it without spending the extra time and money worrying if that dog with the short hair and big head that looks more like a APBT will be more dangerous than the dog next to it with short hair and a big head that looks more like a boxer.
      
      Also, it would mean that ANY type of dog (even unidentifiable mixes) that shows aggression towards people could be responded to accordingly.
      - on April 6, 2010 at 12:52 pm retrieverman
        
        I never got sensitive to Pit Bulls until I got a dog that looked like one.
        
        That’s one reason why I hate BSL.
on April 6, 2010 at 10:20 am Sengimage

Well Actually Emily. That’s what I told her. But, She did the research and actually found that in the US there is only one acknowledged conformation standard for her breed Called the American Staffordshire Terrier. But the American Bulldog Association registers the dog as a Pit Bull Terrier even at its size. I can understand that the weight in general says over weight… but you’re thinking a shorter statured dog.

Even in the Flat Coated Retriever there are specimens that are far under or over the accepted standard. I have one Dog and a Bitch that are spot on for the breed standard, but then I have another two males that are very large over 86lbs each and over 26 inches at the shoulders. And I have one Bitch that is smallish under 24 inches and 45+ lbs. So there are always variances above and below the standards in every breed.

Haven’t you mistaken a conformation Golden Retriever for a Buff Newfoundland yet?

In Canada the kennel club acknowledges several different sizes of the AmStaff. My sisters dogs are 25 to 26 inches at the shoulder and are very fit. They have an elegant tuck from the chest into the brisket and stand slightly higher at the shoulders. She’s even showed them and done pretty well. I’m not an “expert” of her chosen breed, but she is very much into them and it seems that the American Standards are for more rigid than other countries.

Again another avenue for the demise of diversity in yet another breed.
- on April 6, 2010 at 12:10 pm EmilyS
  
  The American Bulldog Association is not a legitimate registry for the APBT. Only the UKC (and, though I say it reluctantly) the ADBA are. All the others are frankly just paperhanging scams, at least as far as the APBT is concerned.
  
  Historically, the APBT and the AST were moderate MEDIUM dogs. Sure, there were always big ones, but 25-26 inches and 100+ pounds is NOT what the dogs are meant to be.
  - on April 6, 2010 at 12:39 pm Sengimage
    
    Well, then the paper hangers… are doing pretty well, Damn. But the dogs look nice. So long as they are healthy and good dogs, then it can’t be all bad. Perhaps some bad entities in the inner circles of breeding…. Like you said be fore … homework applies.
    
    But really… where I lived and grew up…. they were in all sizes. Obviously there are Giant Labs now…. Also of questionable heritage, but nonetheless they are called Labs.
    I’m not going to take the honor away from anyone who owns a Pitbull even if it is too big. Giant Pitbull anyone? ;-)
    
    Are we 100 posts yet?
    - on April 6, 2010 at 6:28 pm EmilyS
      
      btw, the Canadian Kennel Club does NOT recognize different sizes for the AmStaff, so I’m not sure where you get that. Their standard is similar, if not identical, to the AKC one:
      http://www.ckc.ca/en/Portals/0/pdf/breeds/AFT.pdf
      
      (quote)Size
      Height and weight should be in proportion. A height of about 18-19 inches (46-48 cm) at shoulders for the male and 17-18 inches (43-46 cm) for the females is to be considered preferable. (unquote)
      
      It’s true that until recently the UKC didn’t have a specific height/weight metric in their standard. But then they never considered the possibility of a 100 pound, 20″+ APBT. Even now, they will accept a larger dog if it is in proportion, but most of the huge dogs are overly bully and won’t get a CH.
      - on April 6, 2010 at 8:39 pm Sengimage
        
        Don’t count me out yet Emily… I haven’t spoken to sis yet to get the whole story. Like I said not my forte, but it certainly is a papered dog and is an American Pit Bull.
        
        And I think I would know a larger dog would not get a champion title. There are however … Giant Lab, Giant Rotties and possibly Giant whatever you can think of…..
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 11:12 pm EmilyS
        
        (hugs) we’re on the same side.. I’m just a stickler about maintaining breed integrity and NOT calling anything with a square head a “pit bull” and I don’t care what papers it has
on April 6, 2010 at 10:26 am icr

Back in the days when “Petey” was the mascot of the Our Gang comedies it’s my impression that dog-fighters were a small fraternity-relatively speaking- and they were the only ones who selectively bred for “gamebred” dogs. The general public did not have access to these dogs, and would have had the common sense not to want to buy them if they did.

Today, in the post-bourgeois world of anarcho-tyranny , we have a vast lumpenproletarian underclass and those of higher station who foolishly emulate them. So you have ignorant amateurs trying to breed gamebred dogs and nitwits who buy puppies from them.

What made me think of this was a friend who had what he thought was a perfectly fine APBT for a few years until he suddenly came very close to have his nose bitten off. The dog obviously showed some restraint-the nose was a bit mangled but still intact.

It might have been his fault- I don’t know. I saw him a day or so after the attack and he was still in a state of semi-agitation. That and the condition of his nose made his story hard to follow in all its details.
- on April 6, 2010 at 12:46 pm Sengimage
  
  It most likely boils down to one question…..
  
  “What did you do to the dog?”
on April 6, 2010 at 11:16 am icr

Here’s a story about a dogfighting ring run out of a daycare center in suburban Chicago:
http://newsblaze.com/story/20091014105042rose.nb/topstory.html

Just google “dogfighting chicago” and you can find evidence from a variety of sources that there is a lot of illegal dogfighting going on.
- on April 6, 2010 at 12:16 pm cyborgsuzy
  
  Google search results:
  
  Results 1 – 10 of about 575,000 for dog fighting chicago
  
  Results 1 – 10 of about 7,100,000 for rape chicago
  
  Results 1 – 10 of about 845,000 for mugging chicago
  
  Results 1 – 10 of about 8,040,000 for stolen chicago
  
  Using these highly scientific results, I am confident that this large urban area appears to have a lot of illegal activities.
  - on April 6, 2010 at 1:12 pm Sengimage
    
    Where did the numbers for these statistics come from? The thing about statistics is depending on who the source is it can easily be skewed to support pro or con.
    - on April 6, 2010 at 2:32 pm retrieverman
      
      Benjamin Disrael said this of lies:
      
      “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
      - on April 6, 2010 at 2:46 pm bill
        
        I can’t believe you’re still follwing this. I really think i am beginning to win the hearts and minds, but do please warn me if i’m in danger of getting banned from your internet site. And if so, does that would mean i can’t read the blog anymore, or just leave comments?
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 2:54 pm retrieverman
        
        Nah. You won’t be banned.
        
        To be banned you have to make me very angry. Because it’s my blog, I’m the only one who matters when it comes to banning.
        
        This debate is MILD to what I’ve had on here before.
        
        I actually had two bad ones going on at once.
        
        on April 6, 2010 at 3:18 pm Sengimage
        
        Uhh yeah, I recall. ;-)
on April 6, 2010 at 3:17 pm retrieverman

133 comments (counting this one).

This thing grew wings!
on April 6, 2010 at 9:51 pm misscutesie

153 comments!

Jesus.
on April 6, 2010 at 10:16 pm retrieverman

Well, this post has broken all records for comments. 157 comments with this one!

But things are getting a bit heated.

I’m not closing comments for this entry, but I think everyone needs to take a breather.
- on April 6, 2010 at 11:21 pm EmilyS
  
  If you blog about “pit bulls”, you’re going to attract the hatefilled morons and the staunch advocates who won’t stand silent as the morons post their hatefilled stupidity and lies. I’ve assumed you WANT to attract attention/discussion/hits/comments. Nothing wrong with that of course.. it’s your blog so obviously you can write about anything you want and accept/reject any comments you want. Surely you’re not surprised at what’s happening?
  - on April 6, 2010 at 11:39 pm retrieverman
    
    I knew this is what I’d get.
    
    I want a spirited debate on here– especially on this topic.
    
    I just want everyone to take a step back before continuing the debate.
    
    I think the side I agree with (yours) has done a fine job tearing apart bad arguments.
  - on April 6, 2010 at 11:50 pm retrieverman
    
    I’ve not rejected any comments on this post.
    
    Everything you read on this post is uncensored.
    
    I try to keep it that way.
on April 7, 2010 at 8:47 am Sengimage

Its actually pretty tame.
on April 7, 2010 at 10:28 am bill

I was ready to quit, accept the evidence that vast, systemic media bias was at the core of the matter. And write a conciliatory post.

Then i thought to myself, what would a United States Marine do? They know something about not taking the easy way out of a fight, even when outnumbered.

It turns out, what they would do is BSL their asses! As of last week! (adding only wolf hybrids and Rotts to the list)

http://www.digtriad.com/news/local/article.aspx?storyid=139453&catid=57

Why would an organization whose second most important job is convincing a lot of young males (often from tough backgrounds) to join them, ban one of their most popular breeds?

Marines don’t strike me as the type to fall for media sensationalism. And while this is further than i’d go, (i would just make pit/rott/wolf owners post a bond and wear a special ribbon for ridicule) it sure makes sense to me.

My opinions may not be popular here, but it’s nice to have the full might of the USMC on my side (one of the top 20 marine corps around).
- on April 7, 2010 at 10:35 am retrieverman
  
  The Marines do lots of things that are not scientifically based.
  
  Example: Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.
  
  Case closed.
on April 7, 2010 at 11:05 am Sengimage

Do you really believe the cream of the crop in terms of intellect get selected to join any branch of service at the enlisted level?

The same people that are recruited for service or volunteer for it are comprised of the majority of low income and under-educated that also favor these kinds of dogs in the”hood” for fighting.

Add to that that the same mentality often follows them into the military barracks and family housing areas. Or if they don’t bring it then their friends and relatives that are still in the hood, bring it.

My father, was one of these people back in my youth, we were one of those families. And believe me…. a lot of what joins the military, you wouldn’t want as your neighbor. Luck me…Daddy was an officer.

The officers are a different story, most of them come right out of college skip through boot camp and don’t live in the same areas with the general enlisted. They are literally within the military ranks…. the elitist class.

But the general enlisted…. there’s a term … JARhead. Or Grunt or Pee-ON etc etc.

Think it through Bill.
on April 7, 2010 at 11:26 am bill

Wow, ok…somewhat surprising response i guess, but whatever.

I’ll mark you as “no” for the Memorial Day barbeque.
- on April 7, 2010 at 11:38 am cyborgsuzy
  
  The crowd becomes hushed at the troll’s audacity as it moves to imply that being anti-pit bull is patriotic!
  
  What could the troll possibly say next that would top this?
  - on April 7, 2010 at 11:43 am retrieverman
    
    Which is very strange, considering that the APBT is pretty close to being our national dog. And during WWI, it was regarded as such.
    - on April 7, 2010 at 12:19 pm bill
      
      I think their mascot is a bulldog, which is precisely why their decison is so interesting.
      
      I associate pit-type advocates who cite media bias for their dogs’ reputaion, with those on the further right side of the political spectrum who also blame liberal media bias as a priamary reason for the stifling of their viewpoints.
      
      Not to paint people with too broad a brush (its ok with dogs), but in your collective opinions is this a reasonable assumption that their is significant overlap of these two groups?
      - on April 7, 2010 at 12:24 pm Sengimage
        
        First off….
        
        What is your opinion? ;-)
        
        Are you asking because you already have an answer to compare with or are looking for one?
        
        And please…
        
        Paint away. Most of us have open minds and don’t get our “knickers” in a bunch.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 12:35 pm bill
        
        sorry, paragraph 2 is my opinion (guess really) that most pitbull-type advocates also agree that on average, the media is biased toward favoring left-leaning viewpoints.
        
        Not asking your personal political bent, just wondering if its a fair assumption that the 2 viewpoints are commonly related.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 12:56 pm Sengimage
        
        Hmmm…
        
        Well, I’m sure it also has a lot to do with first hand account and experience. Vs sensational eye grabbing and sponsor driven numbers.
        
        Otherwise there would be more agreement with the media.
        
        I think the advocates actually come from all walks of life and a very wide range of political views.
        
        Its a matter of who’s more open minded than others and who is more impressionable than the rest. And everyone in between.
        
        They weigh the results on what they know and how they learn it and then make their decision in the “now”. If more information is gathered later on then the option to change one’s view is always there. Otherwise, you just sort of stand on what you know based on what you know.
        
        So no its not a fair assumption. It is however someone’s perspective.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 1:31 pm Pibble
        
        Phew. I’m about as far from the right as possible. Put me in a room with Rush Limbaugh and only one of us is coming out.
        
        Are you doing a study and do you write for The Sun? Because this is the type of “scientific evidence” I would expect them to base a story on.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 1:34 pm retrieverman
        
        No one is ever going to confuse me with being on the right either.
        
        But wait: They have.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 2:06 pm Sengimage
        
        Clearly Bill, You already have answers to your questions…..
        
        Here’s my take…. If the media really did report on all things dog related….
        
        You would hear much more good than bad.
        
        And in the bad news you would hear more about every breed than any single breed. or type.
        
        But then wouldn’t the public then demand banning all dogs as vicious?
        
        And again the statistics or even the Taly is only comprised of the people who weigh in…. and if the person who is asking for the tally already has a viewpoint and an audience… the tally is already skewed.
        
        Get it?
        
        Its like someone once trying to preach to me about some statistics “pro” favoring their viewpoint (of course) about certain health issues in my breed showing that it was leaning towards a positive outlook if this function was performed…. The main advocate of course being a Veterinarian that of course stands to gain from such statistics and also who is a member of the organization for the breed. So as far as stats… or even a tally, consider the source and take it with a grain of salt. ;-)
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 1:52 pm bill
        
        So what would your response be to a conservative who railed against media bias, as many do all day long on the radio?
        
        During the election Drudge kept a tally of favorable vs. nonfavorable stories on Obama and McCain to try and show that the ratio was out of whack.
        
        Back to dogs, i just think media bias is a convenient excuse. And to agree with claims of one type bias while denying another makes little sense.
        
        You guys may want to co-opt the name “drive-by media” to refer to newsrooms around the country.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 3:57 pm EmilyS
        
        “a convenient excuse”.. in other words, you haven’t actually READ any of the sources we’ve given you, or thought through the analysis we’ve provided. Yet you’re completely willing to take the word of a few Internet sites…because they confirm your prejudices (which are becoming revealed the more you post as really quite disgusting)
        
        I know you think of yourself as way smarter than the rest of us, but you know: you’re just plain stupid. You will only believe what you already want to believe.
        
        Right or left, that’s the mark of a small mind.
        
        on April 8, 2010 at 6:39 am Pibble
        
        You’re clumping all media bias as one.
        
        You have to take each topic individually. Are you talking about politics? What subject? That *subject* would be one media bias.
        
        Are you talking about dogs? Which breed? That *breed* would be another media bias.
        
        You can’t compare Rush’s media with Keith Olbermann’s. They’re two very different men with two very different views.
        
        Open minds can see – SEE – the difference, process it, and make an *educated* decision about what they’ve heard. Hopefully, they’ll go beyond the media report and research the subject to learn more about it so they can have an *intelligent* conversation, ahem, and not just believe one report by one outlet. People have to take the initiative to LEARN when they hear a story, not just believe what they’ve been fed.
        
        Jumping to conclusions on ANY subject, not just Pit Bulls, is very dangerous for all of us. History has proven that time and time again.
  - on April 7, 2010 at 11:53 am bill
    
    oh come on, Sengimage’s message had nothing to do with dogs. It was human socio-economic commentary from a viewpoint (i.e. pee-ons) you dont hear very often theses days.
  - on April 7, 2010 at 11:57 am Sengimage
    
    Considering the impressionable audience of the news its easy to see the enlisted population jumping on board with the vicious dog act…..
    
    Also, The incident on the base states that it was friend who brought the dog on a visit….
    
    Thus its pretty clear the dog was not living with the family who’s child was mauled.
    
    Again going right back to what did you do to the dog,
    
    1. took it out of its environment
    2. placed it in one where there are children it does not live with on a daily basis
    3. Possibly left it without the necessary supervision with the child.
    3. We are assuming the child was not …pulling, tugging or screaming at the dog.
    
    Basically…. A JARHEAD brought a strange dog into the house.
    
    Yup… that the cream of the crop in terms of intellect…
    
    Need I say more?
  - on April 7, 2010 at 1:12 pm bill
    
    I tried to suggest up top that “Cur” was also a term for a specific type of Pitbull behavior.
    
    As in: “That pitbull X is no good, he’s just a Cur.”
    
    I do not think the suggestion was approved for the group to see.
    - on April 7, 2010 at 1:25 pm Sengimage
      
      A cur is an actual type of dog…. I think you meant to either say Mutt.. Or if you wish to be more politically correct a mongrel or if you know the cross …. a hybrid.
      - on April 7, 2010 at 2:03 pm bill
        
        Nope, I mean a specific pitbull behavior. Pasted:
        
        A cur is a game dog who quit during a roll or a match … And when I say quit I don’t mean them quitting because they died fighting… a dog who dies in a fighting match is considered Dead Game … A cur is a dog who will quit fighting or will give up during a match or a roll.
        
        Another opinion from the same page:
        
        a cur was a dog who quit the match by walking away from it or turning its head away from the match. See the match did not take place unless both dogs were looking at that each if one turned its head as if to say no im not fighting or im not interested the match stopped.
        
        Source:
        
        http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/11711-getting-gamedog-cur.html
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 3:19 pm Sengimage
        
        Ahh, this is fighting lingo then. Sort of like a Cau Tau ????
        
        Well, then I now know some fighting lingo. Not knowing what I will do with that? But honestly Bill, how would I use that as a qualifier if I’m interested in a dog suited for a family?
        
        Excuse me Staffie breeder, but would you please allow me to pick out a puppy that is not a cur? Or do we actually prefer the cur?
        
        Agin, I’m not understanding the point? But I do appreciate knowing how it applies to a fighting breed with that purpose in mind.
        
        Do you breed dogs Bill? If so what qualities do you prefer to select for?
        
        And ….
        
        If you are not a Breeder, can you at least share the qualities you look for in your dog? Perhaps it will reveal if you really are sincere here?
        
        I want to believe that you are. So help us out here.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 3:36 pm bill
        
        It was in reference to a dog bite incident Rinalia linked to where the dog was referred to as Cur in one article and Pitbull mix (by the mother of the victim) in the other article.
        
        I was suggesting that a possible reason for the discrepancy was that “cur” was also an adjective used to describe non-fighting pitbulls.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 3:59 pm Sengimage
        
        Still …..
        
        “Do you breed dogs Bill? If so what qualities do you prefer to select for?
        
        And ….
        
        If you are not a Breeder, can you at least share the qualities you look for in your dog? Perhaps it will reveal if you really are sincere here?”
        
        ????
        
        ;-)
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 4:29 pm bill
        
        no i dont breed dogs, but i have a lot of time for:
        
        1. nose
        2. brains
        3. speed
        4. sound bodies
        5. soft mouth
        6. natural retrieve (in a perfect world)
        
        I don’t know what sincere has to do with it. I think pitbull type dogs are a dumb choice as pets, because they’re more dangerous to dogs and people. I never once said they should be banned or taken away. Your real enemies are the bureaucrats within the 4-600 municipalities around the country that want your dogs.
        
        I don’t want to ban your dogs. We have enough laws. I just think that their stigma is deserved.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 3:54 pm EmilyS
        
        yoo hoo Bill: “cur” has 2 DIFFERENT meanings, can you grasp that?
        
        old time dogfighters, of whom you seem more and more enamored, used the term for dogs that wouldn’t fight. They were the dogs they gave to their family members and which became pets.
        
        Retreiverman has written clearly about the landrace dogs referred to as “curs”
- on April 7, 2010 at 4:00 pm EmilyS
  
  so what branch of the service were you in, Bill? Or have you served our country in some other way?
  
  you wouldn’t be some keyboard warrior, would you?
  - on April 7, 2010 at 4:34 pm bill
    
    Emily-
    
    I’m assuming you meant that question for Sengimage.
    - on April 7, 2010 at 4:46 pm EmilyS
      
      no, Bill, for you.
      will you answer?
      - on April 7, 2010 at 4:58 pm bill
        
        I really think you are confusing me with Sengimage.
        
        What claim did i make in that regard? I think impersonating a military vet is a big deal. “stolen valor” law or some such.
        
        If you point out my claim, i will:
        
        Go home tonight and scan my Hillsborough County Firefighter (Engine 27 woot!) ID card, with photo, redact my street address and post it for your satisfaction to continue discussing pit bulls.
        
        Do others really think i was insinuating anything about myself? If so, please point it out, and i will take a break and apologze to all, and then die of embarrassment.
      - on April 7, 2010 at 8:40 pm Sengimage
        
        I was a Military Brat of an Air Force family.
        
        My Father’s exact words to me when I considered joining any branch of service…
        
        “Son you’re to smart for the Military. The Military is often the path of last chance, last resort or no direction. You my Son, are above all of this since you have a better path ahead of you”
        
        For that Matter… Bill, I thought you had Pitbulls?
        
        So you have retrievers?
        
        Are you a hunter, or just a family Man?
        
        Either way I respect that.
        
        I didn’t mean to disrespect you by stating sincerity, but, it just wasn’t clear, to me at least, whether you liked dogs in general or not. So your line of inquiries seemed a bit … well… from left field so to speak.
        
        I actually though at some point in the comments here that you said you had Pits that you take to the dog park, So I really just wasn’t sure if you somehow didn’t like your own choice of dog or not???
        Which just came across as odd.
        
        So Bill, what type of dogs do you have? Its clear to the world the types I have….But I still love my sister’s APBT’s .
        
        Also, Knowing you’re a fireman is good to know…. Although there are still plenty of sociopaths in many a fire department, I’m still going to just think you’re one of the heroes among them….. So is your dog a Dalmatian? They have quite a history as well. Although that depends on the type..if its a Pureblooded or a designer. Etc etc.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 9:13 pm Bill
        
        i just want to talk about dog breeds. Nothing personal, but i don’t really care. I should have ignored Emily’s bullying, and im surprised no one called her out for it.
        
        Btw, i have been gone from HCFR for several years.
        
        on April 7, 2010 at 9:21 pm Sengimage
        
        Well, what breed do you own?
        
        And EmilyS is really not bullying. Maybe being very blunt, but thats not so bad. She just would rather not beat around the bush and get to the point. Thus, she just backs you in a corner a bit….
        
        I get that sometimes too. Just a bit of thick skin and well, patience.
        
        Maybe you should just come out and state your case? Because you just keep going around and around. Pick a spot take a stand and talk to us why dontcha?
on April 7, 2010 at 11:33 am Sengimage

LOL

Sure.

You’re welcome to come to mine.

Bring your dogs, a camera and a frisbee.
- on April 7, 2010 at 1:33 pm Pibble
  
  And your break stick. Should be fun! :-)
on April 7, 2010 at 1:38 pm Lane Batot

Dang, guys, I’m away from computers a few days, and look what happens! I can’t believe I just read all this! And I HAVE to comment now, of course…..One thing I have always found amazing is, considering the POTENTIAL(if rarely realized) ability of Pit Bulls to do damage, and the STUPIDITY of humans, I quite frankly am AMAZED there are not a LOT MORE incidents! To me, this illustrates that Pit Bulls are not nearly as crazy/savage as they are made out to be(plus, I have years of experience with hundreds of them in vet offices and kennels, so I know better). Has anyone else ever read James Thurber’s “Portrait Of A Dog”–written back when “American Bull Terriers” didn’t have this reputation? I had a friend who raised Staffordshires–cute little buggers–but even with them you had to be watchful around other dogs–when they got loose(all too frequently, alas), they would beeline it for the neighbor’s yard, who had a chow-cross chained up, and light into it, again and again! Chows have that “reputation” too, of course–it seems to have died down a bit…..Anyway, on a humorous note, these little “Mini Pit Bulls” were delightfully friendly with people, and if you sat down in a chair at their house, they competed wildly for your attention, wriggling up under one’s arms, which led me to relable them “Arm-Pit Bulls”!!! :)
- on April 7, 2010 at 1:39 pm retrieverman
  
  We’re approaching 200 comments on this one post.
  
  It broke the record yesterday.
on April 7, 2010 at 2:32 pm Jess

I’m not weighing in, I just wanted to have the two-hundredth comment. I’m shallow and easily amused.
on April 7, 2010 at 3:04 pm retrieverman

This thing looks like post from the Huffington Post. 203 comments counting this one!
on April 7, 2010 at 4:12 pm retrieverman

I’m going to start another one of these shortly.

Stayed tuned.
on April 7, 2010 at 9:11 pm Sengimage

By the way Bill. What type of dogs do you own?

If you can train them with floating cheetos I’m guessing they’re fun.
on April 7, 2010 at 9:44 pm Sengimage

The guy was a definite AssHat.

I like like term.

;-)
on April 8, 2010 at 11:14 am Retrieverman Community « Retrieverman's Weblog

[…] all I have to do is embed another Staffie video and get 228 […]
on May 5, 2010 at 10:39 pm yvette

Staffordshire Bull Terriers are often lumped in with about several other breeds as being Pit Bulls but Pit Bulls are their own separate breed. Like Pit Bulls, SBT’s were originally bred for fighting so physically they tend to be stronger for their size. It doesn’t mean their personalities are inately aggressive though. The fact is that small dogs and other dogs are just as likely to bite but they don’t tend to do so much damage because of their physical build. In fact some statistics suggest that many other dogs are much more likely to bite. SBT’s are also one of the few dog breeds recommended for children and they are a very stable reliable breed when brought up normally.
on January 29, 2012 at 12:00 am Ronan

I feel i have to leave a comment I have a staffie Rocco. I also have 3 kids 10 9 3 in the house with him. a terrible guard dog as he Loves all Humans. But I trust him with my KIds before any Person fact. My Wife at 10 Was attacked by her babysitter. if a staff was in the house that would never of happened fact.
I love this little dog, it is hard to train,he is so stubborn its funny, but loving is its first nature before all other natures no matter what you here. We leave our dog with our 10 year old to look after the house while we go shopping, or out for less than an hour. He is so protective, but so loving he is like a guarding angel. I thank my lucky stars every day for having Rocco In my home with my kids. He is never to tired to play or to comfrtable to move for them to sit where he is, he is also quick to react to the sound of the 3year old crying (normally first to react and alerts us to a real problem). And as my 3 year old would say it’s my horse daddy, he inndures all sort of torture. He one day may be an evil robot in my son’s game, next day he is ben 10’s best sidekick, never a problem for this dog just plays the role with affection. I wish I could write in words how much this dog has changed our lives but it would be substandard. I can only tell you a staffie changes everything. Like an angel sent from heaven to watch over you. But please hear my warning he needs to be loved and not left on his own for long periods of time they cant stand seperation from their family. LIKE US ALL!!!!! This dog was bread for people not for fighting.
on March 11, 2012 at 12:01 am Why are people so ignorant when it comes to dog breeds?

[…] .aizatto_related_posts_header { font-size: 1.5em; } .aizatto_related_posts ul { margin: 0; } .aizatto_related_posts li { list-style-type: none; margin-left: 2px; } .aizatto_related_posts_title { font-size: 11px; font-weight: bold; } .aizatto_related_posts_title a { text-decoration: underline; } .aizatto_related_posts_excerpt { font-size: 11px; } The truth about Staffordshire bull terriers […]

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