Canis lupus hominis

Posted in dog breeds, Uncategorized | 47 Comments

47 Responses

1. on April 12, 2010 at 9:01 pm Laura

   I bet they eat alot.

   
   
2. on April 12, 2010 at 9:22 pm Ann

   Well, the dog that won that group seemed to be the least extreme in the group. Good news in that respect.

   The bad news is that the dog may not be considered as having enough “type” by some neo people.

   
   
   • on April 12, 2010 at 9:46 pm retrieverman

     I also noticed that.

     This is a more”typey” dog:

     If I were really, really a dog show person, I would skip retrievers entirely and move onto these.

     Of course, there would be many ethical considerations. This breed is very far removed from what it once was– even 10 years ago.

     
     
   • on April 12, 2010 at 9:48 pm retrieverman

     Because of their unique conformation, they are susceptible to all sorts of health problems, which are exacerbated because they come from a small genetic base.

     The tendency is to breed out all the Alaunt (light mastiff) traits.

     Which of course, leads to a great deal of exaggeration.

     Now, I’m a dog show critic, but I’ve always been amazed at some of these dogs.

     Call it a contradiction.

     But I’m just starting to be okay with my contradictions.

     
     
     • on April 12, 2010 at 11:30 pm Pai

       They’re a beautiful color. But I’d rather have a nice blue pit bull or Staffie, personally. Something like this: http://rpbluepitscom.webs.com/photos/SLATE%20N%20DASH/021.JPG

       The melty-face weirds me out, to be honest. I can’t imagine the drool + skin-fold issues there.

       
       
       • on April 13, 2010 at 10:37 am Sengimage

         Pai, that is a handsome looking type of Pit. My Sister’s looks like it… albeit a bit larger. Thnx

         
         
         • on April 13, 2010 at 12:49 pm EmilyS

           here’s a photo of the first AmStaff to achieve the “MACH” title in AKC agility:

           

           Can OTCh MACH 10 Milagra’s Emma Lee Bi Sierra UDX TT, TDI SCT CGC (and many other titles)

           
           
   • on April 15, 2010 at 3:59 pm eli

     Am I the only one then, in watching the video, my first impression was, “Cow-hocked, every one of them. Their hips won’t hold their weight past 6-7 years.”?

     
     
     • on April 15, 2010 at 5:39 pm retrieverman

       http://www.akc.org/breeds/neapolitan_mastiff/

       No word against cow hocks in the standard.

       
       
3. on April 12, 2010 at 9:37 pm Djanick Michaud

   Massive ?

   Knowing how much a dog eat, I rather feed my gang and have so birds retrieved “in exchange” than feeding that kind of beast for… euh… well… may be preventing burgulars to come in (sure it works !).

   Nevertheless, they’re beautiful animals, very powerful. Love the one handled by the bald guy… !!!

   
   
4. on April 12, 2010 at 10:08 pm Jess

   If I wanted a big dog with a lot of health problems I would get back into Danes. These dogs are not attractive to me at all. I’m just not an extra skin sort of person.

   
   
   • on April 12, 2010 at 10:11 pm retrieverman

     I’d get an Irish wolfhound or maybe a Dogue de Bordeaux for the health problems galore

     But if I were just after a cool looking dog, I’d get one of these neos.

     
     
   • on April 12, 2010 at 10:12 pm retrieverman

     Which is why no one should be in the business of getting a dog just for its looks!

     These dogs are a major departure from what they once were.

     
     
   • on April 12, 2010 at 10:41 pm ruthcrisler

     Not to me either, and I love mastiffs (I like Danes, too). But I’d pick a Cane Corso or English or bull over this mess.

     I occasionally wonder if someone over at Neapolitan headquarters accidentally swapped out their breed standard for that of the Rhinoceros.

     Just a theory.

     The only one I know really well is great with other dogs and usually very sweet, but is awfully territorial on leash with her owner as well as formerly food bowl aggressive at home.

     Oh, and I am told her sire choked to death while eating a hot dog. Don’t know what might have been attached to it.

     
     
     • on April 12, 2010 at 10:48 pm retrieverman

       It’s the Indian rhino: http://homepage.mac.com/wildlifeweb/mammal/rhino/indian_rhino01.jpg

       They are a total basket case in terms of health and form (and everything else).

       But the question about why we would be so attracted to breed such exaggeration in a dog is a good question.

       I don’t want to get too controversial on this post, but these things are a mess.

       And yet I’m oddly attracted to it.

       
       
       • on April 12, 2010 at 10:56 pm ruthcrisler

         Yep, that’s it. Amazing creature, just not what I’m looking for in a dog.

         
         
         • on April 12, 2010 at 11:01 pm retrieverman

           The Indian rhinos have very sharp incisors, and they’ve have mauled people.

           They actually fight with their teeth.

           
           
5. on April 12, 2010 at 10:43 pm Bill

   All hat no cattle. Those tubby handlers would stare blankly at yoyou’d asked whether form should follow function in dogs.

   A massive, fierce-looking dog that can’t run, can’t fight, and won’t guard. Remind me of the appeal.

   Jeep now makes a 2 wheel drive Wrangler with mud tires than can’t be taken off the pavement, so I guess this is where were all going, and I’m in the minority.

   
   
   • on April 12, 2010 at 10:49 pm retrieverman

     http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2008/12/10/are-neapolitan-mastiffs-healthy/

     That’s my unbiased take on them.

     They aren’t that healthy.

     
     
6. on April 12, 2010 at 11:06 pm Bill

   Read your old post again and then tell me with a straight face that the most-used sire problem in field trial dogs makes those breeders just as bad as the fanciers who cobble together this dreck and sell puppies for $2k each.

   I have no idea how someone going for a dual-champion GSP can stand to share the same auditorium with these folks.

   
   
   • on April 12, 2010 at 11:14 pm retrieverman

     They are both as bad, because neither is thinking of the animal as an organism. They are thinking of it as something to win ribbons, and they aren’t thinking of the gene pool at all. It’s all short-term, not long term.

     Field trial breeding has unintended consequences. They just aren’t as obvious as the bizarre conformation in this breed.

     
     
   • on April 12, 2010 at 11:16 pm retrieverman

     Breeding dogs for working trials alone will lead similar problems. It’s just the immediate physical effects won’t be seen for generations. These critters are screwed more obviously.

     But it doesn’t mean both aren’t screwed.

     
     
     • on April 13, 2010 at 7:10 am Bill

       If one had the time and inclination, coud you compare the inbreeding coefficient of the top 10 Westminster Neos and say, the top 10 dogs at the National bird dog trials at Ames? Those are the most competitive FT dogs I can think of, they can’t really be hunted, frm what I understand, so would potentially be just as screwey.

       
       
       • on April 13, 2010 at 7:51 am Djanick Michaud

         When breedings are done with only specific criteria, the whole picture is missed. In FT or show, that’s what happens. Fortunately, there are breeders that devote their entire work on keeping breeds as it supposed to be.

         
         
       • on April 13, 2010 at 7:52 am retrieverman

         I’ve not seen any studies on bird dogs, but I have seen them on border collies.

         Border collies and golden retrievers that have been bred for show are about equivalent in terms of inbreeding.

         Goldens are the textbook case in the most used sire phenomenon.

         But before you start crowing about the working dogs, read this: http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2007/10/siding-with-akc.html

         I well, however, give you this.

         The dog breed with the least genetic diversity that I’ve seen is a show dog and has been for a very long time: http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/why-are-bull-terriers-so-inbred/

         BTW, these inbreeding problems are not fault of the people currently breeding them. I get this all the time. These inbreeding problems are the fault of the breeders who came before, and then left us with a registry system that doesn’t allow us to fix the problem.

         But if you think this exists in the conformation community alone, then you’re sorely mistaken.

         The AKC is a big target. It’s easy to go after them.

         The effects of conformation breeding are easy to see. It’s easy to denounce that.

         However, when your using a closed (or for all intents and purposes, closed) registry system and using just a few studs to sire a huge proportion of the puppies per generation, you’re asking for trouble. Whether the dogs wind up looking like rhinos or like border collies is relatively immaterial. It’s the same dark hole.

         But the rhino dogs will experience problems first, just because they don’t have “normal” conformation.

         
         
       • on April 13, 2010 at 9:03 am Sengimage

         They’re going the route of the Show type Basset Hounds.

         You know those extra wrinkles are for directing all the blood away from their eyes……riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

         The sad part…. there really is no working purpose except to look Big and intimidating, so its not like the labs where you see the pigs in the ring and the athletes in the field. Unless they become the next fad in the fighting underground?

         Bill is right and wrong…. the Backyard breeders tend to lean towards exploiting for profit.

         The Hobby Breeders that put all the commitment a show type or field type breeder does but doesn’t march to the beat of the drum the clubs demand are the destined saviors. They at least network with like minded hobbyists who appreciate the merits provided with breeding for health and temperament. Not solely for cosmetic type.

         
         
         • on April 13, 2010 at 9:17 am Bill

           Sensimage-

           I have heed thinking about your dogs for days. Why do you choose show-bred American cockers for your retriever breed stock, as opposed to field bred english cockers?

           This isn’t a forum, I know. But do a special post on your web site, and you’ll get at least one page view.

           
           
           • on April 13, 2010 at 9:28 am retrieverman

             I’m interested in this question too.

             
             
             • on April 13, 2010 at 9:33 am Bill

               Guest blogger?

               
               
               • on April 13, 2010 at 9:38 am retrieverman

                 If he puts it on his website, I’ll link to it.

                 
                 
           • on April 13, 2010 at 10:07 am Sengimage

             Well, Bill….
             Lets just say I have more cards to shuffle in the deck than what you can see. ;-) But, the American cockers in the mix were the result of something we actually didn’t plan for or seek to continue… until we were encouraged to by some rather convincing people in our lives who saw the potential and the benefits and had the credentials to make those claims. But, lets just say that the process doesn’t stop there.

             And…. Once you’ve gone rogue in the eyes of the fancy…. its difficult to replenish those cards. So it involves a LOT of networking. Searching for like minded people.

             The American Cocker… actually can type towards the Field bred. They’re that closely related that you can have either type thrown in a litter of cockers. And fortunately…. our dogs seem to retain the drive to retrieve and flush. Not that I’m hooked on that purpose, but if what I do to keep them fit physically and mentally on a daily basis helps reinforce these things, then my pack of dogs… is a happy one.

             I’m not sure about taking on more hate mail and death threats from the wacko dog fancy than what I do get. Some of it is really disturbing. Its given cause to ramp up security around the premises and to take on full time video surveillance with cameras watching all over the property… Yup, thats how those threats make you react and with a family of 5 children and dogs who would rather lick than attack, I have to worry. My neighbor who is a security/body guard also has access to the cameras and carries, is on call at all hours.

             In any case when you love something, you really learn more about it. Become an expert in your own right with a perspective from the other side of the pond. And you have to, in order to defend yourself. Or to begin questioning the status quo.

             I get over 3,000 hits a week close to 10,000 a month. So the traffic there is doing well through viral communications. And luckily there are more fans than haters in this world.

             
             
             • on April 13, 2010 at 10:18 am Bill

               Awesome, thanks!

               Seem like cool dogs. Good luck.

               
               
               • on April 14, 2010 at 7:33 am Sengimage

                 ooops…I was wrong…

                 in the previous 6 months we’ve received over a half million hits averaging just over 100k a month. Over 25,000 hits a week.

                 Sorry about that ;-) Or Not :-)

                 in the last 10 days alone since our Fan Page went up….. we’ve had over 100k hits.

                 Ouch.

                 
                 
   • on April 12, 2010 at 11:54 pm retrieverman

     Neos don’t have any real purpose now.

     They can guard well.

     But they are far from as dexterous as a German shepherd or a malinois.

     Their main purpose is romance.

     The modern manifestation of the Roman Molossus.

     
     
7. on April 13, 2010 at 6:13 am Pibble

   It’s like everything today, from shoes to cars to well, dogs. Everything is exaggerated. When you do that to a dog you end up with, as ruthcrisler said, a rhinoceros . Not a good result when it’s supposed to be a dog!

   Too bad, because I love big dogs.

   These guys (from One Bark at A Time) are looking for a home. Obviously, they’re not to breed standard and/or they’re bastardized by the backyard breeder. However, they’re much more handsome in my book: http://onebarkatatime.blogspot.com/2010/04/neopolitan-mastiff-puppies-belle-bronx.html

   
   
   • on April 13, 2010 at 7:03 am Bill

     Pibble,

     It sounds like backyard breeders are the savior of breeds like this, not the problem. They unwittingly reduce inbreeding. They may not health test, but I don’t think the dogs can get any sicker. If breeding for performance alone is corrupt, and breeding for conformation alone is as well, then the “I’ve got a good, healthy dog, you’ve got a good healthy dog, let’s see what happens.” has to be better.

     
     
     • on April 13, 2010 at 7:54 am retrieverman

       In weird way, that’s exactly right!

       The backyard bred dogs might be the solution. In Tom Quinn’s The Working Retrievers, he tells people to look at these dogs– don’t go chasing the best lines you can find.

       He also has a really strong denunciation of the most-used sire phenomenon.

       
       
     • on April 13, 2010 at 7:54 am Djanick Michaud

       I cannot agree about the “back yard breedings”… there is a way for doing things right. For thosee who want pups from certain breeds have to look on how the breeder works. We breed to keep CIO as low as possible (around 2%) and do all we can to keep on the breed’s origins and health. Back year breedings play with some odds that can also make disastrous results in health issues.

       
       
       • on April 13, 2010 at 8:04 am retrieverman

         I didn’t agree with it at first, but when your breed is losing both genetic diversity and working ability, you have to look somewhere.

         Since we can’t add new blood from other breeds and adding show dog blood is a dubious proposition, it may be that we have to get a dog from a family whose Ginger has had a litter.

         I don’t like it. I would like the dogs to all have health screenings, but they spent decades trying to breed out hip dysplasia in goldens. They significantly reduced it, but while they were doing that, the cancer rate began to shoot up (probably as the result of decreased genetic diversity).

         I’m not saying that we should breed crappy dogs or those that can’t walk. I’m just saying that selecting against a disorder also has its consequences. We have to start thinking about these animals the way zoos think about their animals. What are the long-term effects of selective breeding on the gene pool?

         This will all become clearer when I finally publish the answer to the mystery dog.

         
         
         • on April 13, 2010 at 9:13 am Sengimage

           The selective process still works Scotty. Its about as effective as screenings. So “Ginger” could possibly have the same chances of dropping as mixed a bag of healthy pups and destined to be displastic pups, as the carefully screened ones.

           But, the success our ancestors found in the selective process was enhanced by not having the spay neuter options in play that we do in today’s world… Literally, when you alter over 80% of the litters produced you stack the odds against the breed for better selective breeding stock. You’re left with the dogs that apparently look good, but the svelte specimen dies prematurely. Looks good though.

           
           
           • on April 13, 2010 at 9:31 am retrieverman

             It’s true.

             But all adding new blood does is reshuffle the deck.

             That’s why I’m all for it.

             When you have tightly closed registries the decks are all operating without aces. You might need an ace, but you can’t get one. Then they cull some more, and you’re without hearts. You might need a heart, but you can’t have one. Then they cull some more, and you wind up with only black cards. You might need a black one, but you can’t have it.

             See what I’m saying?

             
             
       • on April 13, 2010 at 8:09 am retrieverman

         The European HPR breeds are being bred this way.

         I actually got a comment from the fellow who save the Braque du Bourbonnais. In that breed, genetic diversity is really taken seriously, mainly because it almost went extinct after World War II.

         They’ve revived it with other HPR’s, including the only other one with brachyury, the Brittany (in this case, Epagneul Breton, not the American variant).

         
         
         • on April 13, 2010 at 9:11 am Bill

           It must be a maddening problem in rare breeds. No one (rightfully) wants to spend 12 years with an inferior dog, just for the good of future generations.

           When I am president (dictator) of my breed club, you will submit an application to the club for a puppy. The network of breeders will breed a lot of good dogs to a lot of good bitches, and cull mercilessly. When your puppy passes a very basic ability test, you will recieved a number to be tatooed/chipped on the dog. If two years passes before the ability test is completed, desex your dog, or lose the bond you posted to the club when you recieved your puppy (did I not mention that?). Your male (not your female), may be asked to sire a litter or give sperm for the good of the breed.

           
           
           • on April 13, 2010 at 9:16 am retrieverman

             Hey, those are great ideas.

             The problem isn’t just in rare breeds.

             Any breed that started out with just a few founders is going to have this problem.

             We didn’t have this problem 200 years ago. You could line breed and inbreed all you want, but you always had an escape valve, which is an outcross to an unrelated “breed.”

             We don’t have that now.

             It’s very hard for people to think about dogs in the macro.

             I do.

             Even if I do get death threats from doing so.

             
             
8. on April 13, 2010 at 10:33 am Sengimage

   Thanks… there are few pics of the hybrids actually in their hunting gear. There’s one returning over a log with the prize in its mouth. I wish it was clearer… not my camera. but at least my adoptive families check in and remain in contact.

   We wouldn’t have it any other way.

   
   
9. on April 13, 2010 at 11:04 am Jackal73

   These are nice to my eye for Neapolitans. I don’t like the hanging skin one commonly sees, and I’m pleasantly surprised that these are considered winners since their jowls aren’t slapping their forelegs. I’m also not a fan of massive dogs. Yes, I like Great Danes and Irish Wolfhounds, but I’d never choose to own one. Even within the breed I favor (GSDs) I like the smaller dogs that are closer to the original landrace rather than the big, slopey show types.

   
   
   • on April 13, 2010 at 11:17 am retrieverman

     I don’t like big blocky goldens either.

     
     

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