Tom Quinn’s The Working Retrievers.
It is not merely a retriever training manual. It is really a wonderful piece of nature and dog writing, coupled with lots of helpful advice on how to perfect a retriever’s instincts.
I don’t know whether I will follow all of his recommendations. I’m not a very good physical trainer. Plus, my breed is one that can be totally ruined if you go too far. My first and best dog could never have survived a force-breaking session. But she never refused a retrieve in her life and always returned to hand.
But whether I follow all of his advice or not, it is wonderful writing, and the paintings and photographs are superb.
I particularly like the anecdotes that add so much to the work. I particularly liked story about how the author and his brother once retrieved their own ducks from the water, before they finally realize that a dog might be a lot better at it. They come in contact with the concept of a retriever, when their hunting grounds are squatted upon. These hunters come camouflaged with fancy waterproof boots, and when they are done shooting, they have a red gun dog to pick up for them. I wonder if the “Irish setter” the author and his brother see retrieving ducks for these camouflaged hunters was actually a very dark golden retriever.
This book explains to me why the Lab is the “retriever’s retriever,” as the author puts it. Labs are extremely tough. They don’t have setter or spaniel-type bird dog instincts, but they do take direction well, even if harsher methods are used.
Goldens, even if they have a lot of drive and instinct, are often harder to develop using these methods. Goldens are smart dogs, but they were designed to retrieve shot grouse that fell in the dense tangles of heather. They have superb air scenting abilities and are good markers. However, they are very hard to regiment. They might do better at a more English-style trial than an American one, for they are really good at finding game. They just aren’t good at finding game as a regimented retriever. So not only do you have to find a golden with instinct, you have to have one that has instinct and can handle the actual “breaking” process.
The Working Retrievers is really good piece of writing that explains the author’s relationship to these wonderful dogs and to their use as working dogs. It is about the dogs as dogs and nature as nature. It is also about developing the natural talents of these dogs and turning them into retrieving maestros.
That black lab is beautiful!.
Speaking of training methods, have you read or listened to the general training articles on Leerburg’s website?
http://leerburg.com/articles.htm
Ed Frawley breeds and trains working-line German Shepherds, which have lots of drive and dominant personalities. He talks about ‘hard’ vs ‘soft’ tempered dogs, and how it’s vital to know which kind you have in order to train and correct them properly. I found his stuff an educational read even for me with my toy pup.
Most goldens are soft personality dogs, in fact much more so than you’d expect. They can run through the brambles and rose bushes, charge through ice-choked lakes and rivers, and if you step on their toes accidentally, they usually don’t yelp. But if you try to man-handle one, well, most of them can’t handle that. That’s because they are socially soft.
That’s one reason why they do so well in obedience– they are very concerned about what you think of them.
I know these are generalities, but most goldens I know are like this. Most of mine were like this. My current dog is like this.
It’s a terrific book. The paintings are wonderful, the writing is lively and interesting. And it’s beautifully presented–it sits on the top of my dog-book stack for show… a dog-training coffee table book!
I have to say, I think you may be underestimating the natural drive, birdiness, and independence of a good Lab–but then, I’m partial. :)
I also think you (and maybe Quinn) might just be mis-estimating the amount of pressure most Labs can benefit from–while many can TAKE a lot of pressure, more than most are not as “tough” as people think. The best trainers I know spend a lot of breath telling the new folks and folks having trouble with a dog that seems stubborn or hard-headed to take it down a notch (and, instead, work on better teaching and timing)–and they are always right.
Perhaps Labs are more “forgiving”–you can make more pressure mistakes without risking total ruination–but that’s different. I’ve heard from really good trainers that many a GREAT Labrador has been pressured into mere goodness.
Goldens are more like herding dogs. Labs are as tough as foxhounds, which are incredibly tough, and are still biddable. That’s because the Lab was specifically bred for the trial, while the golden was bred to be an estate retriever. Goldens tend to do better in English trials than American ones.
( … but I’m still a force fetch convert… )
If you tried that method, even gently, on my first dog that would be the end of her. She already retrieved to hand without much training. I thought she was a typical golden retriever. She was an object finding machine. She would retrieve anything. In fact, retrieving was so much a part of her that retrieving was a far better reinforcer than anything else. But if you raised your voice at her, anything louder than an “aaaa,” she’d be done.
She avoided my grandfather, who loves all dogs, because when she was at his house, she ran into his electric garden fence. She never came near him again. That fence was useful, though, in breaking a rehomed Dalmatian of chasing cars. That dog was as thick as my golden was sensitive. And, although neutered, he had a terrible crush on the golden, who thought he was a spotted idiot. But she manipulated him… severely.
His force-fetch is actually mild compared to some of his other techniques. I think he learned dog training from reading Konrad Lorenz’s Man Meets Dog, which uses scruff shakes as the main punishment. Lorenz was an interesting person. He was an Austrian Nazi but also one of the founders of ethology. In fact, his Nazi connections hurt his relationship with Niko Tinbergen, one of the other founders of ethology and with whom Lorenz would share a Nobel Prize (the other one is Karl von Frisch, the man who figured out the “waggle dance” in honey bees.
Tom Quinn’s book is a great read, with some wonderful training advice. I also like James B. Spencer’s & Evan Graham’s training books. Less color, more practical advice. Spencer worked with goldens & flatcoats, and his approaches are great.
Gene Hill’s books are full of wonderful stories of hunting over dogs.
I’ve seen Spencer’s book and read parts of it in a bookstore.
I also have the Richard Wolters books, Game Dog and Water Dog.
But I really love this book: http://www.amazon.com/Upland-Passage-Field-Dogs-Education/dp/1592282415
I have the original printing, which is severely dog-eared, and coming out of its binding. These are upland game retrievers in Vermont, hunting the same sorts of birds that lived around my home in WV.
Woodcock are almost impossible to shoot, and even more so when you’re using a flushing dog.
Quinn mentions field trialers and trainers that I’ve worked with or watched and properties where we train. We train on Barbara Ornbaun’s property regularly. She has a wonderful training pond, when it’s full and available (the property is not available during duck season.)
You see, I live in a virtually waterfowl free area, unless you count resident (non-migratory) Canada geese.
When I was growing up, I had a Muscovy duck that had all the dogs under her iron fist. The only person who could touch her was me, and she laid eggs, which I would collect and cook. (I know that’s sick).
I’ve got to do a blog post on my childhood duck.
Spencer didn’t write one book. Which of Spencer’s four books did you look through? He’s written one on marking drills, one on drills for blind retrieves, one on hunt tests and one on training dogs for hunting meadows & marshes.
You know, I’ve heard many people say that a force or conditioned fetch method would be too much for their dog. After two years of repeating that phrase, when their dogs were still failing junior tests, they gave the method a try. The dogs didn’t melt down, if the program was well designed and well executed. The dogs “got it.” They usually passed junior and went into senior training with no melt-down. The lesson learned was that the dogs adapted well to the training. It was the owners that had the problem.
Woodcock are hard to shoot, because they tend to hang out in heavy cover/timber. First, you’ve got to find them. Without a dog, that’s an exercise in futility. Then you have to shoot well enough to hit a rocket-bird that’s winging through the trees and brush. That isn’t easy, no matter what breed of dog you’ve brought along.
Umm, why is collecting eggs sick? If you only had one hen duck, she was laying unfertile eggs. Sounds like a reasonable use of the eggs to me.
I don’t understand your comparison between goldens and herding dogs. In what aspects are they similar? What breed of herding dogs are they similar to? A Border Collie is very different than a German Shepherd. There are as many different types and temperaments of herding dogs as there are retrievers. Some are hard, some are soft, some intuitively cue on handler’s non-verbal signals, others don’t.
Whose force fetch are you referring to? Quinn’s? If so, why do you think he used Lorenz’s method? There were several long-time field trialers and retriever trainers in the area at the time he started. The Gonias, Rex Carr, Warren Grimsby, the Ornbauns, just to name a few.
Your current dog isn’t a field trial bred golden. I’ve trained with goldens that can take no pressure at all. They may make decent hunting companions, and do well in low-mid level hunt tests. I’ve trained with goldens that are as hard headed and stubborn as the hardest field-bred lab. Most goldens can deal with at least a modified force-fetch program, and benefit from one if they are working in tough conditions in high-level tests. It aren’t necessary. You may be able to achieve the same results with other methods. But it will take much longer to reach the same level of training.
This one:
http://www.amazon.com/Training-Retrievers-Marshes-Meadows-Spencer/dp/1577790073 T
My current dog is half field/half “white” retriever.
My first dog was totally field line, and I just lucked into her. She never refused a retrieve. The breed she was most similar to was a border collie or a working Australian shepherd. You could control her with your voice only.
I just learned to train dogs for other purposes that don’t involve anything physical. And I worked for a service dog program in which the dogs were doing very complex things with only verbal corrections. By 7 months of age, these dogs were responding to 97 to 105 cues. Plus, the vast majority of obedience trial goldens are now trained this way, and if you want a dog that does both, going to hard on them in one might wash them out in the other. In obedience style is really important. Of course, this is the golden’s forte, not the field work.
I accept that goldens take 6 months to year longer to mature than Labs. I like my dogs like my wine, aged and cured into excellence.
I’ve never scruffed a dog. Every other training book I have says not to do this. And I have an old training book which includes a traing a Samoyed to retrieve and pinching never happened:
http://books.google.com/books?id=VohOAoOjBBcC&dq=ted+baer+communicated+with+your+dog&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=yplqjhFf1T&sig=F9gAXCnbEHFeoejZbSgdLkImmFk&hl=en&ei=_E2pSdXHHoyVngfCuIjWDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
The Samoyed is made to retrieve, but the dog isn’t pinched into doing so.
To tell you the truth, I think these methods are more scientific and based on how science says dogs learn, whereas the old way of training is more like how people break horses. Both work,
Those stubborn goldens do exist, but I’m just using the breed stereotype– stereotypes are often wrong. Often the best natural retrievers in this breed are the most sensitive dogs you can find. And that’s the way my first dog was. But she was an obsessive, hard-driving dog that could take rose bushes and cold water. But if you raised your voice at her, that’s all you’d need to stop her. I use an “aaaaa” that sounds like a buzzer for my verbal correction. And that’s all you needed.
I don’t think she’d be an American trial dog, but for a British trial, SAR, substance detection, obedience, or just a regular pick up dog she would’ve been fine. This was a dog that would dive through a thicket of multiflora roses into a ravine and then naturally quarter her way around in the thorns and steepness until she found what she was looking for– and that could be a thrown rock. Then she’d come back and want to do it again.
She had a superb nose. My grandpa once lost his wallet on a hunting trip, and we we did was we got her to retrieve some wallets. Then we took her out in the woods where he lost the wallet. Within twenty minutes, she found it.
That dog had so much natural ability that I don’t think an American trial or test could really measure it. She was so eager to please. She totally sold me on the golden. I’ve been looking for another one ever since.
I’m very willing to wait on a dog if waiting means that I don’t crush it or wash it out.
I suppose in a way I’ve been lucky. My two dogs are teaching me that every dog is different and constantly remind me that generalizations don’t work on individuals. My flat-coat takes a correction better than my Lab!
The variations in soft/tough/ sensitive/insensitive/etc. that I’ve seen in goldens are even more dramatic than in Labs, I think, though most Labs I’m around are pretty much bred to work. I’ve got to say, the field trial goldens I’ve been around are impressive animals. I’d have one in a heartbeat! But my next puppy–5 or 10 years from now–will be a li’l black Lab.
I like Spencer’s two drill books, haven’t gotten around to the other two yet. Evan Graham… every now and then I see a drill from him that is useful and that I haven’t seen anywhere else, but in general I find him incomprehensible–I think he makes simple things waaaaaaay too complicated. I’m in the minority, though; folks seem to eat his stuff up, so maybe I’m missing something.
The Labs that are bred for trials have been bred for trials for so many generations that this is their forte. It’s just like how border collies now are so much better are trial herding now than they were when they were nothing more than various strains of strong-eyed collie.
The vast majority of goldens aren’t bred for work, and they’ve got all sorts of temperament issues now. Plus, the current fad in pet goldens is to import the white colored show dogs from Europe that haven’t been bred for work in many generations. That will cause variances.