Sometimes pictures really do speak louder than words. Very few breeds have the pictoral history of their development as golden retrievers do. I’ve sifted through the history of this breed rather closely and carefully studied the photographs and paintings. I have come the following conclusions:
- The vast majority of the early dogs, including those at Guisachan were not light colored. It is often said that they were, usually using Elma Stonex’s history as a source. However, she was simply wrong about this. It is possible that she was wanting to please the golden retriever club mandarins, who were beginning to breed the lighter colors and had changed the standard to allow for these lighter colors just a few decades earlier (in 1936). Most of the golden retriever intelligentsia of that time were deeply committed to the Russian circus dog story of golden origins, and it is likely that she was trying to make the story fit better with the politics of golden retriever society at the time.
- Heavy and very coarse dogs existed in the Tweedmouth strain. Whether these are part bloodhound or not is another question. I think they are showing a stronger Newfoundland influence than bloodhound. There is no really good documentation on bloodhounds being crossed into the Tweedmouth strain, except that it was said to be written down on a piece of paper, which was then lost. I’m of the view that it is likely that the Tweed water dog (“water spaniel”) did have some hound in it, and early retrievers were sometimes crossed with hounds. However, we do know that a dog appears in the Tweedmouth studbook with the name of Tracer. Tracer’s sire was Zelstone, who was known to have Newfoundland or St. John’s water dog influence. If he had the big Newfoundland in his ancestry, it is possible that his progeny could be heavy dogs.
- One of the problems that Mrs. Charlesworth, the real founder of the golden retriever, discovered in the strain was that they were too heavy and coarse to really be good retrievers. The pictoral history seems to bear this out. Noranby Sandy and Noranby Balfour are much heavier-built dogs than her later dogs. However, her later dogs, Noranby Jeptha, Noranby Jane, etc. were of a much more svelte and workmanlike body-type.
So I think I am going to go through the golden’s history in photographs starting with “Lady,” Archie Marjoribanks’s Texas ranch golden. Lady’s descendants would include Culham Brass and Culham Rossa. Culham is one of the three foundational lines of golden retriever, and it is closely related to Mrs. Charlesworth’s Noranby line. The Culhams were owned by the 1st Viscount Harcourt, a Liberal cabinet minister. The other strain was Ingestre, which were kept on the Ingestre estate, which was owned by the Earls of Shrewbury. However, let’s start from the beginning, with Lady the Texas ranch. She was not the first golden in North America, for the Lord Aberdeen, who was married to Ishbel Majoribanks, imported several goldens to British Columbia during his tenure as Canada’s governor-general.
Lady with Archie Majoribanks:
From her descended Culham Brass, b. 1904.
Mrs. Winifred Maud Charlesworth founded her strain. Some of her ealier dogs were a bit heavy and lighter in color. Here, she is photographed with Noranby Sandy and Noranby Balfour. Both of these dogs are a bit heavier than her later dogs. Sandy is a light gold, which at that time was sometimes called a shaded gold. Occasionally, really light golds were born with cream shadings. I have a photo, though not digitized, of an even lighter golden belonging to Lord Aberdeen in Canada. However, you can tell that this dog is not a “white” one. It is about the color of my dog.
Now, in the early days, goldens were part of the flat-coat breed, and most lines were interbred with them. Also contrary to Mrs. Stonex’s history, breeding a black flat-coat to a golden will not make your goldens darker. Goldens are genetically the same color as yellow Labradors. Yellow Labs are often bred to black Labs, yet the number of “fox red” Labradors remains quite low. The genes that make goldens dark or lighter in color is not related at all to the genes that determine whether a dog is yellow-to-red or black or liver, except that yellow to red is recessive to both black and liver. One of the top trial retrievers of the early twentieth century was Don of Gerwn, a liver flat-coat. Don was born to another liver flat-coat named Rust and “cream-colored” (meaning light gold) retriever of Tweedmouth’s strain. Don very strongly resembles what later goldens would become.
Don of Gerwn
Now, Mrs. Charlesworth wrote the first standard for the golden retriever in 1911. In 1910, a group of yellow flat-coat fanciers decided to separate their breed. Mrs. Charlesworth was one of the ring leaders. I suppose the desire to have them separated had more to do with the fact that in flat-coats, blacks did better in dog shows. Livers occasionally won, but yellows and reds were simply out of the running. Futher, just a few years before, there was a widely circulated story about the origins of the Tweedmouth strain of wavy-coat. It claimed that the dogs were actually descended from a race of Russian sheep dogs that were performing at a circus in England. The 1st Baron Tweedmouth purchased them and took them to his estate in Scotland, where he crossed them with bloodhounds. (I think it is from this story we get the bloodhound entry into the golden retriever). If that were true, then the golden retrievers were never wavy or flat-coats. They were their own unique strain. Mrs. Charlesworth was a proponent of this theory. I think she actually believed it, but it simply was not true. The golden retriever, as we all know, is derived from the wavy-coat, which is the ancestral strain for both the golden and the flat-coat. In fact, the 1st Baron Tweedmouth used lots of black wavy-coats in his strain.The Kennel Club rightly had placed these yellow dogs with the flat-coats. However, with such a story, it would be easier to get the Kennel Club to recognize the golden as a distinct breed. The breed eventually was recognized in 1912, but it was still bred to the flat-coat until 1916.
Mrs. Charlesworth was also interested in making the breed competitive in British trials, so she began to work on breeding out the lumber and excessive bone that had appeared in the strain during the early decades of the twentieth century.
By the 1920’s, she was producing mostly lightly-built and darker golden retrievers, not unlike what we see in working strain golden of today.
Noranby Jeptha was a mahogany born in 1925. I have a photo of her in one of my books that shows a very, very dark dog. In those days, flat-coats and goldens were more heavily trimmed than they are today, but most dogs lacked the really excessive feathering we see in too many show dogs today.
Ch. Noranby Jeptha
Of course, she was not the first dog of this type to exist. Indeed, Mrs. Charlesworth also bred the first champion in the breed, Ch. Noranby Campfire. You’ll never see a dog like him in the ring today.
Ch. Noranby Campfire, b. 1912, the first champion Golden retriever.
Another important Noranby dog was Ch. Noranby Diana, who also placed in a few field trials.
Ch. Noranby Diana
Noranby Diana was born in 1929. If you cannot tell her color from the black and white photo, she is a golden red. She’s just a shade lighter than a mahogany. Here’s her color photo:
Noranby Diana on the right. Noranby Jane on the left. Photo from the 1930's.
The main goal of the early golden retriever club was to have a working retriever that could be shown. That’s why all of these show dogs were also worked, and their body type was much closer to functional than we see in show dogs today, which very often aren’t worked at all. Very often show-line goldens haven’t been bred for working coformation or instinct many generations. But in those days, most show dogs looked like what we would today call field line dog.
Here’s Ch. Flight of Kentford. A very nice looking dog with good legs and very moderate bone.
Ch. Flight of Kentford
And then there’s the lovely bitch, Ch. Abbot’s Daisy. She appears to have a bit more bone but not so much as we see today.
Ch. Abbot's Daisy
And then there’s the famous stud, Ch. Michael of Moreton. Now, as I’ve said before, using a single stud dog in many different matings within a closed registry system is a very bad practice. One of the early “most used studs” in the golden retriever was Michael of Moreton. He was said to be a very high priced stud, but today, I don’t think show golden breeders would spend a dime on him. In fact, they would have a cow if such a dog bred one of their blocky bitches.
Ch. Michael of Moreton, b. 1925
And dogs of this type were commonplace in the late 1930’s.
Ch. Dunkelve Rusty was a top show dog in the late 1930's. He's a very nicely built dog, although, as per the custom of the day, he was a bit over-trimmed.
Now after the Second World War, British goldens began to change dramatically. Heavier bone, which had been bred out of the breed in its eary years, suddenly became popular in the ring, as had the lighter colors. The golden in Europe began to evolve very differently from those in the US and Canada, which were largely based on imports that came to North America in the 1920’s and 1930’s. These dogs would provide the basis for most North American line dogs until th 1970’s, when breeding for more coat became more popular here. The working line dogs on both sides of the Atlantic would tend to keep this “old-fashioned appearance,” beause in working retriever work, conformation is not set by a standard of appearance, which changes a little every couple of decateds. Working retriever work favors a lighter frame and less feathering, although it is possible to train a heavier-coated and heavier-built dog to work with some style. It just will lack the real agility, speed, and style of one of these performance-bred dogs.
Today, this is the version that does well in the AKC ring.
Heavy in bone, short in the leg, and excessive in feathering, this show golden probably swims with all the grace of a Clydesdale.
This version is certain a far cry from the early days of the breed!
I understand that the field goldens today tend to be more mahogany, and the show goldens I’ve seen are lighter. But pictures I’ve seen of yellow flatcoats from today seem to be on the lighter side. Since we haven’t been selecting for any particular shade of yellow/gold in flatcoats, do you think the yellow-gene carrying flatcoats would be carrying the ‘original’ yellow colour and then wouldn’t it make sense that the lighter colour was present in the early 1900’s? Just trying to make sense of this and curious to see what you think…
I’ve actually explored that, too.
What I found was that the flat-coats that are yellow are derived from Don of Gerwn. Don’t sire, Lucifer, was a “cream,” which meant light gold in those days.
I’ve seen yellow flat-coats, but none of them are almost white, like you see in European show goldens. Those that could be mistaken for kuvaszok.
You must remember that goldens are not derived from yellow flat-coats. I need to be a little more specific in my language. Goldens and flat-coats have a common ancestor– the wavy-coated retriever. The Tweedmouth strain is a darker yellow strain of wavy-coat, while the flat-coats are the black and liver ones. The two were the same breed as the flat-coat evolved into a show dog, but the goldens never could beat them. The dogs that became flat-coats were selected away from red or yellow color. The yellow color was only introduced into them via a few dogs.
I think the Ingestre and Culham lines, which were interbred heavily, might be another source of yellow, but these would all be dark. Those two lines were interbred with flat-coats until 1916. The black pups in the litters were registered as flat-coats, so they could have also introduced yellow. However, the yellows in those lines are all dark reds and mahoganies.
So the fact that modern flat-coats occasionaly throw light yellows is not indicative of what color goldens originally were. In fact, I have a photo of Nous, the first golden retriever, and he was rather dark in color.
All wavy-coats were of a heavier build in those days, but they were later bred to have lighter frames, because those frames were more efficient in the water. (Of course, this is a lesson that has been forgotten).
If you’d like to make a comparison of the coloration, check out this blog: http://lifeofjalo.com/
There are yellow flattie on there and a European show golden on that blog, and the yellow flattie, though lighter in color than most working strain goldens, is still quite a bit darker than the European show golden.
Thanks for clarifying :)
There were light golds that were called creams, but they weren’t the “almost white” color. Cream originally meant light golden with off-white shadings. In fact, Valerie Foss, a British golden expert, feels that the original language in the 1936 standard was meant to allow for cream shaded dogs, but that got transmitted in the language of the standard as allowing for dogs whose whole body color was almost white. Yes, there always were light colored dogs– it’s just that the darker ones were preferred, and there were none that were almost white.
The original color range went something like this (this is the full photo that includes Noranby Jane and Noranby Diana):
However, there were a few that did get a little lighter than that. I wish I had a digitized photo of Lady Aberdeen’s light gold or “cream.”
My Yellow Flattie is certainly more on the cream side than the Yellow. He’s often mistaken for white. But, it may have more to do with him being a yellow “Liver” not a yellow “Black FCR????
If by “Lady Aberdeen’s dog” you refer to the dog “Petso” (photographed at Haddo House after 1912) that dog was not from Guisachan breeding, but was given to Lady Aberdeen by Col Trench who had the St. Huberts line of “Russian Yellow Retrievers”.
The sad fact is that our Sulo (the golden in the pack with a yellow flatcoat and European dual-purpose golden ;) is generally one of the darkest dogs in the show ring. But please, don’t insult Sulo by calling him a show dog. He has been bred as a dual purpose dog and continues to work as one. (Note, I do understand the distinction, but Sulo really isn’t a good example of a European show type golden, he is much too dark and lightly built.)
The yellow flatcoats I’ve seen so far have all been fairly similar in coloration to our Luka (who you can see in my link or the link Retrieverman used above). Here is a picture of Luka and his sister http://lifeofjalo.com/2006/06/29/ who is darker than Luka, but still far from the darkest colors that you can find in goldens. One interesting fact is that yellow flatcoats are clearly yellow at birth and slowly change their coat into the golden shade that Luka is now.
We have a very dark red golden retriever her coat is beautiful. She doesn’t have a lot of feather. Is anyone breading for the darker coat even though they are not show quality?
Only working retriever people breed for this color. It’s preferred among those who want a working golden.
This fellow specializes in them in Quebec– I think the Gaspe region:
http://redgolden.com/
My girl is just like CH Noranby Diana :)
Gosh, dogs like that are hard to find.
Beautiful site. Nice history and also nice pictures.
Nice beautiful site. I like the story about the history. I live in the Netherlands and my golden Bentie (part show, part work) get puppies next year, the father is a dark golden-retriever and also english ft champion.
My dog looks a lot like yours:
https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2008/12/13/my-dog-in-the-snow-her-name-is-miley/
My preference is for the darker colors, but this dog is really good– very trainable but she won’t retrieve!
I like light and dark.
The golden stud-dog has a darker color. Benties mother is also darker. My Golden-Bentie retrieves, i’m very happy for that.
Your Golden looks like my Golden, she is beautiful.
I like this site also, pedigree of my dog:
http://www.k9data.com/fivegen.asp?ID=265464
So i can see which part is working en which part is show.
I always like to see pedigrees of other goldens to see of the are a little bit related.
I look at pedigrees a lot.
Because I’m not breeding from my dog, she has just a pet quality pedigree.
However, when I have time and space to really give working goldens what the need, I’m going to start my own field line of goldens.
that’s amazing Golden Retriever hunter.
Hi Retrieverman,
“One of the problems that Mrs. Charlesworth, the real founder of the golden retriever, discovered in the strain was that they were too heavy and coarse to really be good retrievers. The pictoral history seems to bear this out. ”
Okay, I’m going to call you out on this one. Look at this photo of Cowslip:
I don’t think it is true that Marjoribanks’ retrievers by Nous and Belle were heavy at all.
In my copy of his stud book I see where he wrote that certain dogs went to certain individuals. I am going to at some time make the time to try to find out more about the dogs that went these various directions. There is so much information that has not been analyzed as far as the early Golden Retrievers. I think that the k-9 data information has some things wrong too…
It’s not the original dogs that were heavy.
It’s the dogs as they were given out.
Let me see if I can find my source that talks about how the strain is too slow and too lumbering compared to other flat-coats:
http://books.google.com/books?id=NkFibcWLSlsC&lpg=PA10&ots=Q052XXFd6p&dq=needham%20davies%20golden%20retriever&pg=PA62#v=onepage&q=needham%20davies%20golden%20retriever&f=false
I missed the lumbering… he says the Golden was not as fast as the curly or labrador… did I miss that line? I also missed heavy and coarse…
Wrong source.
Sorry.
Mrs. Charlesworth admitted this. Check out Marcia Schehlr’s book. That must be my source. It’s been a while since I last dug through all of this.
The dogs I’m talking about are the ones from about 1900 or the 1890’s, not the ones from the 1870’s. The ones from the 1870’s are a just a strain of wavy-coat. From 1900 onward, there is the attempt to make them something else.
I don’t consider this breed founded until 1910ish, and it’s not a full breed until 1916.
Here’s a post you need to read: https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/zelstone-the-newfoundland-that-was-a-flat-coat/
Check out the goldens at Guisachan house. They are huge!
They don’t look like bloodhounds. They look like red Newfoundland dogs.
.
That is Nous.
Yes, I am very familiar with the photo… I know I have another photo of him somewhere… I think the color of his coat is hard to determine from this photo. I am a blonde and my hair sometimes photographs dark. It’s a shame that we don’t have better images but I guess that is a part of history of that time… always a mystery.. it’s what makes it so intriguing. So many possibilities…
Also, Nous is half of the Golden story… there is always Belle…
She probably looked like a Chesapeake bay retriever of the deadgrass color.
That’s what I’ve gleaned from the descriptions of the Tweed water dog.
The reason why I think she was lighter in color is that the offspring of Nous/Belle were lighter in color than Nous was.
That seems to be a very logical assumption.
In the original photographs of Nous (at least, in the first-generation paper copies I’ve seen) he appears considerably lighter in body color than in the digital reproduction. And yes, with paler underparts and featherings, but I’d expect that his body color was golden, not red; remember that the photographic materials in use at that time often recorded colors somewhat differently than might be expected.
Color paintings of Cowslip and Ada show dogs of lovely true golden coloring. Most of the Culham dogs were of similar coloring. The very dark reds, I think, came into the breed through Normanby Beauty, a bitch of no known pedigree or background, though almost certainly NOT of Guisachan background.
The Ingestre dogs were very dark.
I’ve even had people tell me that their darkness came from black flat-coats, which doesn’t seem accurate.
However within the black flat-coats that were used as outcrosses, it is likely that you have some Irish setters crossed into those lines. At least one of the black wavies (Tracer, I think) used in the Guisachan line was bred into line because his brother (Ch. Moonstone) produced a reddish, fox-colored offspring when bred back to his dam.
It seems to me that they would have used black flat-coats as outcrosses that had Irish setter close in the pedigree. Harding Cox, a flat-coat enthusiast from the early part of the twentieth century, suggested that Irish setter be used in Labradors. I’m pretty sure he was doing the same with his flat-coats.
I happen to go a bit ga-ga over very dark colors in this breed.
There used to be mahoganies that would pop up every once in a while. As a boy, we had two pop up in a litter, and both were purchased first.
My how times have changed.
https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/moonstones-secret/
A dog like this one can make my mouth water:
His name is Finn.
Read his description:
http://saturdaynightgoldens.com/index.asp?ID=13
In your book, you have a photo of the first dual Ch. in the breed (Balcombe Boy). He was an awfully dark dog.
“Heavy in bone, short in the leg, and excessive in feathering, this show golden probably swims with all the grace of a Clydesdale.
This version is certain a far cry from the early days of the breed!”
Oh, I agree with that! Did you see that the AKC now has a title “Grand Champion!”
I wonder how big boned and fluffy and light in color the first grand champion Golden Retriever will be? …and how many times certain champions will be repeated in the pedigree of that dog?
“Futher, just a few years before, there was a widely circulated story about the origins of the Tweedmouth strain of wavy-coat. It claimed that the dogs were actually descended from a race of Russian sheep dogs that were performing at a circus in England. The 1st Baron Tweedmouth purchased them and took them to his estate in Scotland, where he crossed them with bloodhounds. (I think it is from this story we get the bloodhound entry into the golden retriever).”
You are right that this is false. We can see from Lord Tweedmouth’s stud book where he purchased Belle and who sold her to him. I see no mention of a bloodhound in his book. He owned mostly deerhounds and pointers up until his purchase of Belle and Nous. There are no bloodhounds listed. There was a bloodhound from that time period that looked sandy in color and looked nothing like todays’ blood hound but there are no records of this dog being bred into the Golden Retriever to date
I have been given a copy of a diary of Lord Tweedmouth’s that describes him using retrievers to hunt deer. I thought that was interesting.
Nope.
No bloodhound.
And I had an expert confirm it just about a month ago.
The dogs were used to blood trail deer. It’s not unusual to use retrievers and other gun dogs for that in Europe.
I traced the bloodhound to a very weak source. Lord Ilchester who said there was bloodhound in them claims that the cross was written down on a piece of paper, but it was lost.
He said he remember the dogs as a young boy, and they were “rather savage.”
I call bullshit on all of that.
1. Bloodhounds aren’t savage. The dogs called bloodhounds that tracked slaves definitely were, but they were bloodhound/mastiff x’s– like the Fila Brasileiro. The pack hound called a bloodhound isn’t savage at all and never has been.
2. Where are the photos of short-haired golden retrievers? All the ones I’ve seen that have been claimed to be part bloodhound had much longer hair than normal golden retrievers or flat-coats. That sounds to me more indicative of an addition of the Newfoundland blood, rather than bloodhound, which I think is more likely. A flat-coat named Zelstone was said to be half Newfoundland (as in the big one), and he was a relative of the Tweedmouth line. Short-hair is dominant in dogs, so you’d think there would be photos of short-haired goldens. These don’t exist.
3. I’ve seen a photo of a bloodhound/golden cross. It was short-haired and it looked like a bloodhound. I’ve also seen coonhound/lab mixes, and they look like black and tans without the tan.
Look at this photo: http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=6042
I don’t think that this photo is the same dog as in the one in front of the Guisachan house. Lord Tweedmouth owned more than one retriever…
Makes me wonder….
That is Nous II.
He was named after his grandsire (I believe).
The photo on K9date purporting to be Nous, is not. It is a later photo, taken after 1900. And to my eye at least, appears to be a female.
That pedigree is supposed to be Nous… the first…
It’s incorrect.
This is the real Nous the First.
That photo you posted appears to be in the 1880’s or 1890’s.
This one is from the mid 1870’s, which was when this Nous was a live.
This photo was used as a hoax for the supposed Russian origins of the dog.
A gamekeeper and the lying bastard Col. Trench put this together as information that these dogs were from Russia. Trench even went to the Caucasus and Siberia in search of new blood. LOL. Those aren’t anywhere near each other. And he was looking of Ovtcharkas, which are not suitable for outcrosses with retrievers.
But the original Nous is in this photo.
There is also a deerhound or a longdog (deerhound/greyhound x) in that same photo.
There is another photo of Nous I, but it’s not very good.
Lord Tweedmouth lists a number of spaniels. At one point they are listed as Clumbers, yellow and white. In 1843, he lists Retrievers for the first time. He lists 3 retrievers. 2 of them are black and the one that is liver has Irish Spaniel written next to it as though it might be a cross between the two breeds.
..it says they were used for grouse
I’ve seen no record of spaniels being crossed in, except that the Tweed water dog is more classically called a spaniel.
The heaviness trait that appears in some goldens is from the St. John’s water dog and maybe some of the Tweeds.
The behavior of scenthounds and clumber spaniels is not what you’d want in a retriever!
Clumbers are actually a derivative of the ancestral St. Bernard:
https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2010/02/04/the-alpine-spaniel-and-its-descendants/
I’m sure the Clumber was a MUCH different dog back then and I’m just translating the book… I don’t mean to imply that these dogs were all bred together…
The following retrievers listed were in 1844…
Dash (black), Neptune (black)
he also has about 8 greyhounds listed on this page…
The next retriever that I see clearly listed is in 1850. A dog named Gypsy offspring of Col and Steam – June 1850
One of his dogs has “died mad” written after it. not clear as to what breed…
You’re still at least 20 years off before we start on yellow retrievers.
As for the bloodhounds, Marcia Schlehr, in a personal communication, told me that there was no good evidence of bloodhound in goldens. She thinks the crosses existed, but they never breed from them.
If you read Merle’s door, that dog is some kind of yellow retriever crossed with redbone coonhound. He has no retrieving instinct, and although very trainable, he is not interested in hunting birds at all. Most goldens I’ve been around are far more interested in birds than anything with fur.
Redbones are closer to foxhounds in build, not bloodhounds, and Merle looks like a retriever. And he’s trainable. He bays like a hound.
It seems to me that the last thing you’d want to add to retrievers is scent hound.
Scent hounds are very different from retrievers. I’ve been around lots of coonhounds and foxhounds. Their behavior is antithetical to anything we like in retrievers, except nose and the fact that they like other dogs.
The strain of retrievers wasn’t founded until the 1870’s.
We know every dog in the early part of the golden’s background.
The photos are not necessarily the dogs who we think they are… I guess that is my point here… For all we know, that could be Sampson the red setter…
In 1855 he has his retrievers listed as Gypsy 1850, Paddy 1855, and Boatswain 1855…
Two pups listed 1857 (Paddy X Gypsy)
He does not write the color of these retrievers —(Lassy another litter of Gypsy and Paddy in 1859)
Yeah, and he probably wasn’t an Irish setter like that.
The setter in the Golden lines is referred to as a red setter.. It doesn’t say irish setter, just this one retriever has irish spaniel next to it like it was a cross. I found that interesting.
I’m not making opinions on what I am writing from the stud book, just relaying what it says thinking that you might find it interesting.
I wonder what is meant by Irish spaniel?
Is it this?
cool video… who knows? breeds seem to go through radical changes sometimes and also die out…
Here are some Gordon setters in the Scottish highlands:
https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/03/25/the-gamekeeper-by-richard-ansdell/
It was probably a red Gordon.
Red Gordons look like this:
Not be confused with liver and tan Gordons, which are sometimes called reds.
wow, I didn’t know there was such a thing. Very sweet puppy…
Do you think that Sampson might have been a red Gordon?
Yes.
In 1862 there is a dog under Retriever listed whose name is Tweed…
At the bottom of each listing of dogs there is a note about the amount of game hunted… This year it says about 6000 rabbits trapped, 43 woodcocks, and 59 stags and then 1280 something else that is cut off… wonder what 1280 would have been?
The 1862 “Tweed” is listed as “Ladykirk breed”. So another of David Robertson’s dogs. There was another dog “Tweed” “given by D. Robertson” in 1872. This second Tweed sired Topsy (out of Cowslip) in 1873. Topsy in turn produced Zoe (by Sambo, Henry Meux’s) whose two litters are key in thelater Guisachan breedings.
The 1280 head of game taken would have been grouse.
In 1864 Nous shows up…
Nous –Lord Chichester breed — June 1864 — at Brighton
Lord Chichester gave the dog to a cobbler in lieu of a debt. He was a sport, and the cobbler wasn’t using him. In those days, retrievers HAD to be black.
Dudley Marjoribanks saw the dog near Brighton. He then made a deal for to purchase him.
Then he took him to Guisacahan. He and Belle produced their litter in 1868. And those four bitch puppies from that litter were bred from in the 1870’s.
Yes, I have read that story too. It’s not reflected in the stud book… It seems legitimate though.
In 1866, the Retrivers are listed like this:
Garsy – Paddy (sire) – Gypsy (Dam) 1859
Nous — Lord Chichester Breed — 1864
Tweed — Ladykirk breed — 1862 — dead
Belle 1863
No info on this Belle…
In 1868 the Retrievers are like this:
1. Garsy – Paddy (sire) – Gypsy (Dam) 1859
2. Nous — Lord Chichester Breed — Brighton –1864
3. Belle — Ladykirk breed from D. Robertson
4. A dog whose name starts with A (Almar?) “Bushy Breed” from Edward March 1867
5. Meteor — sired by Garsy 1867
The “A” name dog and Meteor seemed to be litter mates and next to their names it says: Sent Nov to Aultbeath with McMillan.
6. Sancho — April 1868
The cool historical part is written underneath that…
Nous (sire) Belle (dam) June 1868
Then it says something wierd… maybe you can explain. It reads:
Almar = Garsy – Tilara = Whim – Doll = Whim – Sire = Nous – Belle = Punch
Puppies
Belle is clearly listed as a retriever.
I have no idea.
Ladykirk means that she came from the area around the River Tweed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladykirk_and_Norham_Bridge
The Marjoribanks family was from Berwickshire, which is right on the river. He represented Berwick-upon-Tweed, the northernmost town in England, in parliament.
He was a major fundraiser for the old Liberal Party, so he was elevated to a Baron.
He made his money as chair of the Meux Brewery. His father was also a very wealthy man– maybe a border reiver?
Sir Henry Meux’s black wavy/flat-coats played some role in the Tweedmouth line.
Dudley Marjoribanks’ father, Edward, was very big in Coutts’ Bank, one of the major institutions in England; you might call him a financier. Dudley’s father, brother, and son were all named Edward– a bit confusing!
Here’s the text about breeding Irish setters to Labradors:
http://chestofbooks.com/animals/dogs/British-Dog-Shows/Chapter-XXIX-The-Retrievers.html
I’m pretty sure that this was a very, very common practice with flat-coats. It could also be a source for very dark color, which would be inherited through the black dogs that were used as outcrosses in the Culham and Ingestre lines.
Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers
1868:
Garry ( by) Paddy (out of) Gyp born 1857
Nous Lord Chichester’s breed Brighton 1864
Belle Ladykirk breed from D. Robertson
Alma “Bushey breed” from Edward May 1867
Meteor ( by) Garry 1867
Sancho April 1868
(then notes pointer pups and deerhounds)
What Jan calls the “weird” part is a note of breedings done:
Alma bred to Garry (retrievers)
Flora bred to Whim (pointers)
Doll bred to Whim (pointers)
Sine bred to Mars (pointers?)
Belle bred to Punch (pointers)
This last “Belle” was a pointer, as were Flora, Doll, Whim, and probably Sine and Mars (I don’t have all the pointer and deerhound pages).
Alma and Sancho– “Russian circus dogs” ?
LOL.
Thanks for clearing that up… I look back now and it makes more sense.
retrievers listed in 1869 are:
1. Nous — Lord Chichester Breed — born at Brighton –1864
2. Belle — Ladykirk breed
3. Primrose — Nous — Belle — June 1868
4. Cowslip– Nous — Belle — June 1868
Belle consistently written uner retriever when Spaniels have all been written under spaniel.
Who decided that Belle was a tweed water spaniel?
I am really questioning this Tweed Water Spaniel which no one has any record of…
I wonder id we have seen a photo (painting) of Belle and just don’t know it because everyone is looking for a Tweed Water Spaniel whatever that may have been…
Oh, Ladykirk is actually written Lady kirk with a space…
Doing a genealogy search I found that “Lady Kirk died in 1914.”.. in Scotland… Was lady Kirk a person or the church or the parrish in Scotland?
Ladykirk is a town on the River Tweed in Scotland, just across the river from Northumberland (the northernmost town in England).
Lady Kirk was a person, lady kirk was a church, and lady kirk was a parrish in Scotland. the stud book does not say which it is referring to…
Ladykirk is just a variant of the town that could be spelld Lady kirk.
Kirk is generic for a Presbyterian church in Scotland. The Church of Scotland, which is Presbyterian, calls itself the Auld Kirk.
I don’t know why you aren’t getting this.
Lady kirk is Ladykirk, which is a town near where Dudley Marjoribanks grew up. He also represented a town in parliament that was just down the river from Ladykirk.
There are no water spaniels or retrievers native north of Inverness. The golden is the northernmost of all retrievers.
This can be found on a map very easily.
Tweed water spaniel/Tweed water dog and Ladykirk breed are all the same word.
The church called Lady Kirk is in Orkney, which I seriously doubt is the place where any of these dogs came from. It was hard to get to Orkney in those days, and there is no evidence that Dudley Marjoribanks or any of his family visited there. It’s on the Isle of Westray.
It’s more likely the town of Ladykirk, which is very close to Marjoribanks’s hometown.
There is no woman named Lady Kirk, as far as I know.
In each listing it is listed with a space and it is in the same position as the breeders of other dogs meaning my guess is this was a person.
The “Ladykirk” referred to in the Guisachan record book is the home of David Robertson. He was a cousin to Dudley Marjoribanks; lived at Ladykirk House in/near the town or village of Ladykirk on the Tweed River.
Several dogs from Robertson appear in the Guisachan record book , and Marjoribanks also sent some dogs to him. It is quite likely that Robertson had his own strain of retrieving dogs, and the two men interchanged dogs on occasion.
I have seen photos of Robertson’s daughter with both black and yellow retrievers.
“I have seen photos of Robertson’s daughter with both black and yellow retrievers.”
I would love to see those.
It’s not spelled that way now, but it’s a town.
No one knows what dog is in the photo with Lady Marjoribanks… Could THAT be Belle? The guess of Primrose or Cowslip is purely conjecture…
If you mean the painting of a llady on horseback, with a yellow retriever in front of the horse– that is not “Lady Marjoribanks”, it is Dudley Marjoribanks’ daughter Mary on a horse named Sunflower. It is more likely Cowslip, as Primrose disappears from the record book by 1871.
There is also a Skye terrier with drop ears in that painting.
Ishbel, as Lady Aberdeen, was well known in Skye terrier circles in the early part of the twentieth century:
http://chestofbooks.com/animals/dogs/Dog-Shows/The-Countess-Of-Aberdeen.html
The Marjoribanks family was better known for Skye Terriers than golden retrievers in the early 1900’s!
I love history and genealogy… it’s like playing the game “Clue”
Exactly Who was with Nous in the Guisachan kennel in 1868?
Sorry for the monologue…
I’m contacting all my GRCA history buff friends…
Sorry to run on with this but I found that there is a Lady Kirk buried in the lady kirk cemetery..
Talk about confusing!
“B Lady Kirk Cm Buried in Lady Kirk Cemetery, Sanday”
Still very confused about the lady kirk breed from D. Robertson…
I hate to say it but I have found a couple of books who do not accurately transcribe Lord Tweedmouth’s stud book. I am looking at what the books read and I am looking at the copy of his stud book.
I seriously question at this point the validity of Belle being a Tweedmouth Water Spaniel. It looks wrong to me. Why would he place all other spaniels under spaniel and then place Belle under retriever… it does not make sense at all…. I strongly dispute this claim. I think Belle was a retriever. Belle was a retriever who originated from Lady kirk. There is no reason to assume otherwise unless I am missing a huge piece of information outside of the stud book.
The dog “Tweed” was not listed as a Tweed Water Spaniel. He was listed under the Retriever heading as a lady kirk breed.
Which is a Tweed water dog or Tweed water spaniel.
The River Tweed runs the border between Scotland and Northumberland. Ladykirk is on the Scottish side, I think.
Ladykirk is on the River Tweed.
Lady Kirk was a person, lady kirk was a church, and lady kirk was a parrish in Scotland. the stud book does not say which it is referring to…
No.
Ladykirk is a place.
I can’t resist complicating things.
Mr. David Robertson of Ladykirk was referred to in some period books, including sporting magazines of the 1830’s as “Mr. Robertson of Lady-Kirk (formerly Mr. Marjoribanks but now in virtue of a very large estate by his wife, Mr. Robertson)”,
He’s later referred to “Lord Marjoribanks”
Lord Marjoribanks isn’t Lord Tweedmouth.
David Robertson was born a Marjoribanks but took the surname Robertson on his marriage. He took the title Lord Marjoribanks very late in life — and died a week later. The title did not pass, so that was the end of it.
Here’s mention of them– with some speculation about bloodhounds I think is way off the mark– but here it is in Hugh Dalziel’s British Dogs:
When I first commenced to keep Irish water spaniels, many years ago, there were three strains, or rather varieties – one was known as the Tweed spaniel, having its origin in the neighbourhood of the river of that name. They were very light liver colour, so close in curl as to give me the idea that they had originally been a cross from a smooth-haired dog; they were long in tail, ears heavy in flesh and hard like a hound’s, but only slightly feathered – fore legs feathered behind, hind legs smooth, head conical, lips more pendulous than M’Carthy’s strain. The one I owned, which was considered to be one of the best of them, I bred from twice, and in each litter several of the puppies were liver and tan, being tanned from the knees downward and under the tail. I came to the conclusion that she, at any rate, had been crossed with the bloodhound. In Ireland, too, there exists two totally distinct varieties, which are now known as the North and the M’Carthy strains; the former are in appearance like a third-rate specimen of their southern relation, but are generally much smaller, have less feathering on legs, ears, and head, often a feathered tail, and oftener still are inclined to be crooked on their fore legs.
http://chestofbooks.com/animals/dogs/British-Dogs/Chapter-XXIX-The-Irish-Water-Spaniel.html
There may be bloodhound in later forms of Tweed Water dog, but I don’t see any evidence that these are in goldens.
I’ve never figured why the Tweed variety is included under “Irish” water spaniels. The Tweed River is in the north of England near the Borders, not in Ireland.
The Northern variety of Irish Water Spaniel is another rarely identified in pictorial evidence.
I think they should be considered more a retriever than a water spaniel, simply because of the descriptions I’ve read of them sound more like Chesapeake bay retrievers than water spaniels. Or maybe we should call them water dogs, because the people of the Northumberland coast and the Scottish Borders used them to net salmon.
So that’s why I’ve tried to call them “Tweed water dogs” in more recent posts.
Richard Lawrence said they had “Newfoundland” in them in the Complete Farrier and British Sportsman (this was in like 1815). What he meant by Newfoundland is anyone’s guess. That term could mean the St. John’s water dog.
I think they are put with water spaniels, because that’s what the writer who wrote about water spaniel’s in Hugh Dalziel’s British Dogs did. The author put them in with Irish water spaniels, and by Irish water spaniels, the focus was on the Southern Irish breed.
I have no idea what the Northern Irish water spaniel looked like
We do have a painting of a TWS that looks a bit like an Irish water spaniel:
I don’t know if it tells us exactly what the ones that were bred into the Guisachan strain looked like, although I wonder if there had been a “deadgrass” version of this breed.
It was a landrace dog, so it probably varied greatly in appearance.
I think you’re right, the Tweed could come in any shade from dark to light brown, even a yellow. Coat with some degree of curl, even to very tight, and some feathering but smooth face and fronts of legs. (I have a photo of a Dual Champion Chesapeake of years ago, with very definite tail feathering)
As to the Northern variety of Irish water spaniel, from what I’ve gathered, they looked like the “ordinary retriever”, with either short smooth coat (like modern Labrador) or perhaps curled, with the same coat pattern as a Golden or the modern Curly-coat. Definitely not the coat pattern of the M’Carthy breed (i.e., modern IWS).
https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/chesapeake-bay-retriever-from-the-1870s/
Chesapeake Bay retriever in the 1870’s. These long-haired dogs were common in the hunt club and market hunting strains of this breed. Later, they decided to breed “otter coated” Chessies.
I’ve seen photos of them. This book has tons of late nineteenth century photos of Chessies: http://books.google.com/books?id=lkLif2MmWg8C&lpg=PA23&dq=carroll%20island%20retrievers&pg=PA53#v=onepage&q=retrievers&f=false
Scroll down and you’ll see dogs that look like curlies, like modern Chessies, and like wavy-coated retrievers.
He and his wife were married in September 10, 1834 at Ladykirk (the church.) His bride was listed as Miss Robertson of Ladykirk, eldest daughter of Sir T. Haggerston, Bart of Ellingham.
Ladykirk the Church is on Westray, a very hard place to get to in the 1870’s.
It was easier to get to Canada than Westray.
I looked into all of the geography on this maybe 18 months ago.
The Stonex historiography makes sense.
Dudley Marjoribanks was a man of the Tweed. He spent most of his life there. He had estates near Ladykirk, so wouldn’t it make sense that some of his retrievers were Ladykirk Tweed water dogs?
I do think it is confusing to call them Tweed water spaniels. In fact, it may be inaccurate. They were more like retrievers in apperance than the Irish water spaniel is.
And it does give a false impression, if you’ve not got a good grounding in the history of this breed.
Where are you coming up with Lady kirk Tweed water dog? The studbook reads lady kirk breed under Retrievers. There is NO mention of Tweed anything…
They didn’t need to.
Ladykirk is on the River Tweed.
…married at the church atthe town of Ladykirk, on the Tweed, is probably the correct interpretation.
No.
Look at where Ladykirk is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladykirk,_Scottish_Borders
Ladykirk breed just means that her ancestors were from Ladykirk.
BTW, it’s not a spaniel.
It’s a water spaniel/St. John’s water dog cross.
I have a post on this if I can find it.
I can see that both Belle and Tweed are listed as Lady kirk breed but they are listed under the RETRIEVER heading, not under spaniels.
Lord Tweedmouth listed his spaniels under SPANIELS.
How did the story about a Tweed Water Spaniel ever come to be? Valerie Foss writes that Belle was a water spaniel but she does not say where she found that piece of information.
I am starting to strongly believe that Belle was a retriever from lady kirk. That is how she is listed in the stud book. That is also how Tweed is listed..Is there a diary or some other writing that talks about the Tweed Water Spaniel? …it sure is not mentioned in the stud book. I think this information is wrong about Belle. I really think she was a retriever.
I really see no reason for anyone to conjecture about Belle being a spaniel. I just don’t get it.
Okay, on the GRCA website it is written:
http://www.grca.org/history_breed/origin.html
“There is no explanation of the Ladykirk Breed in the studbook itself, but closely connected with it is a loose sheet of Guisachan writing paper, which Lady Pentland has also sent me, with jottings in Sir Dudley’s own handwriting, dating from after 1884. This gives an invaluable clue, for it deals with crosses which he had used in his retriever kennel. The first entry runs:
“Cowslip, by Nous, out of Belle
Topsey, out of Cowslip, by Tweed Tweed water spaniels
Zoe, out of Topsey, by Sambo”
So Tweed and Belle were Tweed Water Spaniels! But what was that Tweed variety? There even seems great doubt as to what a water spaniel in 1868 looked like. No one seems able to tell me. The Natural History Museum has no record, but Dr. Parker, Keeper of Zoology, has most sent me a quotation from Ash, 1927, Dogs, Their History and Development.”
So, I guess that is why… I would love to see that piece of paper.
I don’t still don’t understand why spaniel would be under retriever and I think it strange that no information can be found on the Tweed Water Spaniel…
seems like somethings not right….
Both the information regarding the bloodhound and the information regarding the Tweed Water Spaniel come from a loose piece of paper found near the stud book… very odd…
All is this was from the British “Country Life” Magazine early in 1952 and 1953 which had been contributed by the Earl of Ilchester…
Ilchester, then Elma Stonex picked it up.
I
The water spaniels are listed under “Retriever” because that is the work that they did (and still do). Same reason that Irish Water Spaniels are included as Retrievers for field trials and hunting tests in this country.
Additionally, they are probably included with the retrievers because of the interbreeding done to produce more retrievers for use locally.
This often leads to confusion.
Some countries run IWS’s as spaniels, others as retrievers.
I hope the AKC allows Boykins to run as both. They are excellent water dogs.
I have seen that actual piece of paper, in Dudley Marjoribanks’ (Lord Tweedmouth’s) handwriting. It is affixed to the inside front of the Guisachan record book, which is now at the Kennel Club Library in London. Belle and Tweed are clearly indicated as “Tweed Water Spaniel”.
They were called “spaniel” but just as with the Irish Water Spaniel, they are retrievers by their work.
Thank you so much for that piece of information. I am going to go back and review the handwriting.
I thought some of the entries were from the gamekeeper…
My copy is a Xerox so it is hard to analyze thw writing… I wish I had a digital copy…
Do you know what a water spaniel is?
It’s not a spaniel. It’s a retriever. Irish water spaniels are run as retrievers in this country, as are American water spaniels.
And the Tweed water dog was barely a water spaniel. Every description of them I’ve read describes them as a retriever-type, basically yellow curly-coated retrievers.
See my history of water dogs: https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/the-history-of-water-dogs/
Do you know the difference between a water spaniel and a spaniel?
There is a huge difference.
Remember the information and scans I sent to you over a year ago, that mention a Tweedside Retriever (“The History of Retrievers, Compiled from the scrapbooks of H. Reginald Cooke” by Judy Seall. The dog pictured there looked very much like a golden/flat-coated retriever.
In “Shooting: its appliances, practice, and purpose” By James Dalziel Dougall (1875), mention is made of Tweedside water spaniels.
I suspect that the name of the breed changed from Tweed water spaniel to Tweedside water spaniel to Tweedside Retriever as the function of a retriever became more clearly defined and the appearance and function of the breed was more consistent.
I suspect that this isn’t true.
That Tweedside retriever is a misidentified flat-coat from Tweedmouth’s strain. They merely used the wrong term.
It looked exactly like a golden.
The Tweed water spaniel or Tweed water dog looked like a Chessie, including deadgrass ones.
Consult Marcia Schlehr’s book.
The Tweed water dog didn’t have long hair.
So it can’t be a Tweed water dog.
From “British rural sports: comprising shooting, hunting, coursing, fishing”By John Henry Walsh, 1888
The water spaniels may be classed as English or Irish, besides which there is the Tweedside breed, which resembles a good deal in appearance a small ordinary English retriever of a liver colour.
Yes.
But I think the dog in the scanned photo you sent me is a golden retriever, not a Tweed water dog.
Calling them Tweedmouth’s retrievers was a very common occurence, and it’s likely that someone got sloppy when recording it.
I’ve seen no record of the Tweed water dog (or “water spaniel”) in any trials.
From http://www.grca.org/history_breed/ancestors.html
“As a mate for the reportedly handsome “Nous” (meaning wisdom), the light colored pup from a litter of black Wavy-Coats, he selected “Belle”, a Tweed Water Spaniel which had been given him by a relative who lived at Ladykirk, located on the River Tweed along the Border country. “Belle” was the second Tweed Spaniel to appear in his kennel notes, the first having died at an early age.”
— I suspect that relative might be Mr. David Robertson of Ladykirk
Thank you!
I wondered if you meant Lady Kirk the church, which is on Westray in Orkney.
You are quoting text from the GRCA website and that information came from the British “Country Life” Magazine, That is where Elma Stonex got her information as well. A good friend of mine says there is a lot of additional information to be found in Scotland…
However, I am not convinced that there was a Tweed Water Spaniel… My gut says this dog was manufactured by Lord Ilchester but shhhh don’t tell my friends at the GRCA ;-D
I truly believe that Belle was a retriever from Lady kirk.
Who is your friend?
I think you’re engaging in some spurious history here.
The GRCA did not invent the TWS or TWD.
It’s all over the historical record.
People can question things.
I just think this is a waste of time.
I retract… I think there was a water dog that lived along the Tweed.
I don’t know that I would brand it a Tweed Water Spaniel. I think my problem is with the wording of things. I really think Belle should be referred to as a lady kirk breed. All else is speculation. It could be correct speculation.
I should not reveal my friend…
She was not a spaniel, like a cocker or a springer.
She was a dog that is classed with the water spaniels, which are also not spaniels.
However, I prefer to use the term Tweed water dog, instead of water spaniel.
Very simple reason.
If you read Richard Lawrence’s account of them in 1816, they are mixed with Newfoundlands (probably the St. John’s water dog), which means they are the same combo that makes a curly-coated retriever– a mix of water spaniel and St. John’s water dog.
Water spaniels are not spaniels. They are a derivative of the old water dogs of Europe (like Portuguese water dogs, the Extinct English rough water, and the barbet) and crossing with some kind of land spaniel or setter. They are the original doodles.
One of the reasons why Irish water spaniels are in so much trouble (nearing extinction) is that Europeans run them as springer spaniels. That is against their natural talents. They are actually retrievers, but they are old-fashioned and aren’t Labs.
I’m sorry but a spaniel would be classified under spaniel. I don’t buy any of this stuff about the tweedmouth water spaniel now that I have seen Lord Tweedmouth’s stud book. I don’t believe that Ilchester’s recollections from his boyhood were enough to create a breed from.
Call me a skeptic but I really believe that Belle was a retriever as listed in Lord Tweedmouth’s stud book.
Yeah.
She was a retriever.
But St. John’s water dogs from Canada would be listed as retrievers, too, as they were at the Dukes of Malmesbury’s kennels.
Those are the ancestors of the Labradors.
Water spaniels would be listed as retrievers.
It was common for Irish water spaniels to be called “Irish retrievers.”
gotch’a..
Also, nowhere in the stud book is there any mention of Belle’s color.
I’ve written so many posts on this over the past two years that I can’t find them all!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Kirk,_Pierowall
This one is in Orkney, but there are no water spaniels native to it.
Dudley Marjoribanks was from the Borders, the old county of Berwickshire. He represented Berwick-upon-Tweed in parliament.
One must assume that this breed is a Tweed water spaniel.
Is there any mention of the Tweed Water Spaniel outside of the golden retriever community? I cannot find any…
Yes.
Hugh Dalziel’s British Dogs
And bunch of others.
I have them here:
https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/?s=tweed+water+spaniel
Please go through each of them.
The earliest place I find them mentioned is Lawrence’s Complete Farrier and British Sportsman.
http://books.google.com/books?id=xj8AAAAAQAAJ&dq=Lawrence%20richard%20british%20sportsmen&pg=PA405#v=onepage&q=Tweed%20water%20dog&f=false
Flat-coat historian Stanley O’Neill encountered them on the Northumberland coast:
“Mr. Stanley O’Neill, famous for his knowledge of Flat-Coated Retrievers, recalls having seen a Tweed Water Spaniel when he was a boy close to the turn of the century. He wrote Mrs. Stonex that he often visited the fishing ports with his father who was Superintendent of Grimsby Fish Docks. ”Further up the coast,” he said, “probably Alnmouth, I saw men netting for salmon. With them was a dog with a wavy or curly coat. It was a tawny colour but, wet and spumy, it was difficult to see the exact colour, or how much was due to bleach and salt. Whilst my elders discussed the fishing I asked these Northumberland salmon net men whether their dog was a Water-Dog (there were many Water Dogs along the coast of Great Britain) or a Curly, airing my knowledge. They told me he was a Tweed Water Spaniel. This was a new one on me. I had a nasty suspicion my leg was being pulled. This dog looked like a brown Water Dog to me, certainly retrieverish, and not at all spanielly. I asked if he came from a trawler, and was told it came from Berwick.”
http://www.grca.org/history_breed/ancestors.html
Once again, this all related back to the one source the British “Country Life” Magazine. There really are no other sources.
http://www.grca.org/history_breed/ancestors.html
The one source talks of a tweed water dog but I think there is some serious conjecture going on to say that Belle was one just because Lady kirk is near the Tweed River.
I don’t think it’s that much of an assumption.
I’ve seen accepted peer-reviewed historiography based on far more tenuous evidence.
I appreciate that. I just haven’t seen enough evidence to justify everyone saying point blank that Belle was a Tweedmouth Water Spaniel like there was hard cold evidence. I think that she was referred to as lady kirk breed because she was a retriever that was found in lady kirk. I think people should be calling her the lady kirk breed and leave it at that.
“One must assume that this breed is a Tweed water spaniel.”
I guess I am not one since I do not assume that.
Retrieverman, thank you for giving me the opportunity to voice my opinion on this subject. I could be right or I could be wrong but it was nice of you to banter back and forth with me on this topic that is very dear to me.
Your Belle is a water dog and mine is a retriever… not so bad either way.
Thanks so much for the conversation on this topic.
I think it’s more likely that you’re wrong.
The only other retrievers that could possibly be in this mix are the Norfolk retriever or one of the rare yellow curlies.
Yes. there were a few yellow curlies at one time.
But I’ve not seen any evidence that Belle was one of these.
A Norfolk could be a possibilty.
But they were essentially confined to their home county– just as the Tweeds were.
I’m trying to think through alternative hypotheses.
My final one (and one I’m not sure I believe) is that these dogs from Ladykirk were yellow wavy-coats.
Landseer painted a yellow wavy-coat named Breeze who looked just like a field line golden:
http://www.dogpainting.com/art_detail.cfm?Reference_Number=EL00_40
That is exactly what I think. Landseer and a couple other artists as well. I think the lady kirk breed was a yellow flat coat retriever.
If you look at the photo of the gamekeeper with Nous iand the picture of lady Marjoribanks on horseback with one of the first litter’s offspring, then who would have to be the dam? My guess is a smaller lighter built flatcoat.
That’s Mary Marjoribanks.
Her sister, Ishbel, would later become Lady Aberdeen (officially the Marchioness of Aberdeen and Temair). Her husband would be governor general of Canada. In Commonwealth countires, the governor general represents the Crown. They would eventually buy a place in the Okanagan Valley and call it Guisachan (it’s now a bed and breakfast). They brought some yellow retrievers with them.
I’m sorry for being so persistent but this has consumed me since examining the stud book. I doubt that we will ever really find out what Belle looked like (unless it was really Belle in one of those paintings such as the one attributed to one of her offspring.) Who is to say that the lady kirk breed didn’t look like one of the light colored dogs as is mentioned in this article? http://www.grca.org/history_breed/revisited.html
Everyone keeps looking for a Tweed Water Spaniel but I think Belle is somewhere right before our eyes.
You know what’s interesting.
Try figuring out what is behind other breeds.
You can’t do it.
No other breed has a studbook like this, except for relatively recent breeds like the Eurasier.
Oh, I wanted to add that one of my Goldens looks so identical to your photo of Ch. Michael of Moreton, b. 1925 that I did a double and triple take. My conformation friends think she is all wrong. I think she is beautiful and she has great natural retriever instincts. She is the most wonderful dog you could imagine around the house and tremendous retrieving and swimming. She does well with obedience trials too.
Michael of Moreton is the sire of Ch. Noranby Diana, the dog in my gravatar.
Hi Retrieverman,
Oh, you are going to think I am a total nut case (probably already do) but I woke up this morning from a short dream about a dog. I was walking through the woods. The ground was a goldish tone and there was a path leading through dense trees out to a sunny clearing. There she was in front of me. She was a medium sized, lean but well muscled reddish dog (darker red.) Her coat was not real long but it was wavy and her tail was feathered but shorter feathers. She was one even color. She was not at all heavy or course but rather graceful looking. I have been looking all morning though photos on the Internet of dogs trying to find one close.
I think I must be going crazy. First with this obsession with Golden Retrievers which has been lasting for years and now an obsession to look into the history of the breed, well the history obsession has been going on for a while…
At any rate, now I am even dreaming about this mysterious Belle….?
-Jan
something like this: http://www.nrsftc.com/pics/SmadaByrd2.JPG
I’ve used that very site to talk about golden retriever setter origins!
So, if you combined those two dogs that would be more like the dog I saw in my dream…
You are not the only person who just gets obsessed with Golden retriever history– just check out the tag “golden retriever history” on wordpress and see how many posts I’ve done on it!
“– just check out the tag “golden retriever history” on wordpress and see how many posts I’ve done on it!” –that’s how I found you in the first place!
So I am obsessively looking for pictures of this dog and one of the ones that looks like her is from your website:
Really closer to the older photo… deep red color.. very fit looking dog with graceful lines. The graceful lines really struck me.
plus
I have been finding a couple of liver colored flat coats and one dark red Duck Toller that look similar…
That color in flat-coats is called “Rusty Liver.”
Check out my posts on Don of Gerwn, who was of that color (and half golden retriever).
https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/01/14/the-much-celebrated-don-of-gerwn/
Perhaps the links I am sending will be helpful
Earl of Ilchester. “Origin of the Yellow Retriever”. Reflections of 1985. Golden Retriever Club of America. 1985. pp. 28-31. Originally published in Country Life Magazine, July 25, 1952.
I’ve actually read this.
Plus Marcia Schlehr’s book on them.
Elliott, Mrs. Mark D. “Early Ancestors of Golden Retrievers”. Yearbook. Golden Retriever Club of America. 1964.
Both can be found on the GRCA website under the Historical section
http://www.grca.org/history_breed/index.html
Just thought they might be helpful to others that have blogged here.
Well, thank you for them.