The crux of it:
Habituation and extinction are an incomplete, to be charitable, explanation of what happened with Jonbee. Rather than simply habituating Jonbee to touch and teaching him that fighting for control is a waste of energy, Cesar did do what he set out to do. He got Jonbee to submit to being handled inside by continuously administering aversive stimulus with two chokers. Jonbee became exhausted and gave up.
Uh. Mission accomplished, I guess.
–Eric Goebelbecker
It is either exhaustion or learned helplessness.
Neither of which is actually dog training or “dog rehabilitation.”
I don’t know what to think exactly about this as I don’t watch the TV show. As this information provided has limited informations, it would be hard to have a proper opinion… I guess, like all other dog trainers, he has is good and down sides.
His bad side is that he never rewards dogs.
Their reward is not to be choked a bit or finger jabbed.
Well, then I guess there is a big hole in the positive reinforcement…
He doesn’t use positive reinforcement at all.
It’s mostly negative reinforcement and positive punishment.
It’s great TV.
I don’t know if this is the best way to train dogs.
The following statements should not be taken as a ringing endorsement of Cesar Millan.
Positive reinforcement is overrated, as is punishment.
Taking a dog on a long brisk walk may not obviously count as positive reinforcement (depends on the context), but can still be both rewarding to the dog and conducive to a healthy working relationship.
I do think Cesar Millan uses too much force. I think other trainers rely too much on positive reinforcement. I’m not interested in choosing favorites among the current field of one-trick ponies on television.
But mainly, I want to move beyond describing all dog-human interactions in the over popularized jargon of B.F. Skinner.
Not trying to pick a fight, Retrieverman. Your point, I think, was that Cesar Millan’s methods are unbalanced, and that he fails to utilize many very sound tools in favor of a somewhat simple-minded reliance on force (excuse me, dominant energy). I agree with that, though I should also say that I have never met the man, nor watched more than maybe two dozen episodes of his show.
He actually strikes me as someone who does have a natural gift with dogs (reminds me a lot of the first trainer I worked under in that respect). And ironically, that may be his greatest limitation. He hasn’t experience the urgent need to learn technique that most trainers do early on, because he can sorta get by on that natural alpha routine. Sort of like a kid who’s mostly smart enough to get away with never studying, but only to a point….
I am careful with what terms I use.
I believe this:
1. All dogs are individuals with different temperaments and proclivities.
2. All trainers are individuals with different personalities and talents.
What works for one may not work for another– in terms of both trainers and dogs.
I am a positive reinforcement person. However, I’m not a fundamentalist of any sort.
I do think the old methods are dying, simply because of professional attrition.
Most people who learn to train dogs or who are interested in dogs aren’t learning how to do alpha rolls.
Virtually no one younger than me is learning this, nor do they find it socially acceptable. The professional organizations that regulate animal behaviorists and veterinary behaviorist are very clear in their opposition to a lot of what was once axiomatic in dog training.
Some people don’t like this.
But them’s the breaks.
What this means for dog training is a good question.
It may mean that virtually everything we do with dogs is going to have to be revised.
Our expectations are going to have to change.
Cesar in a nutshell:
http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/the-dog-whisperers-secret-revealed/
great blog, it’s going on the blog roll! Thanks!
Retrieverman, you know methods I use with my retrievers… and how much I prosecute any use of coercitive methods… There are other ways (Mrs Lorie C. Jolly show it well with great highly titled field and hunt dogs that things can be done positively)..
Oh, yes. I know what methods you use.
And yes, I’m aware of how she’s trained her goldens.
You might find this article interesting (and she’s quoted in it):
http://www.gundogmag.com/gundog_breeds/GD_ideal_0709/
nonsense. Few of the dogs Millan handles are “dangerous”.. except when he makes them so. This is one of the biggest myths perpetuated by his defenders… that the only alternative for the dogs on his show is euthanisia.
Almost every dog he features has behaviors that would be readily altered (permanently) by real trainers, including those who would choose mostly “positive” and those who would choose mostly “corrective”.
whoops, sorrry RTM! This was meant as a response to “Poly” below.. please move if you can.
How many actual dangerous dogs has Mr. Goebelbecker handled? Well, if you believe his website, the answer is “None”.
And when I say a dangerous dog, I mean a dog that is dangerous to human beings.
A high-drive puppy or even a high-drive dog is NOT the same as a dangerous one. A “handful” (Goebelbecker’s word) to train? Perhaps. Dangerous? Probably not.
In fact, many dangerous dogs don’t have all that much drive – either because they were born that way or because they have had their drive destroyed by bad handling. That’s one – but only one – of the reasons why they are “hard to train”. A low drive dog won’t work or, at least, won’t work with a human. They will react – sometimes violently – but they won’t work at controlling that reaction. And training IS work, for the dog as much as for the handler.
I only say all this because I don’t consider Mr. Goebelbecker to be much of an authority on handling dangerous dogs.
As for Cesar Millan, he actually does handle very dangerous dogs. At least, that is what he has said in his books. Most of his shows, however, seem to be about owners who don’t know how to handle themselves – much less handle another animal – and the result being a dog with ‘issues’.
But occasionally he will show a real canine psychotic like the Hwanggu in the video. One can question whether his techniques in handling such an animal are actually “training” as we know that word to mean, or whether they are something else.
That makes for an interesting discussion, akin to discussing whether a wild, undomesticated animal is actually ever “trained”. There’s a current TV show about dangerous animals kept by people, and the experts who appear on that show say that these animals are never trained- no matter how they act.
As I said, an interesting discussion. But not one to get us very far in handling a dangerous animal or a dangerous dog.
This is extreme anthropomorphism.
Animal psychotic?
What the hell is that?
Cesar Millan’s methods are from the Stone Age.
I don’t care what people say.
If a dog has aggression issues, they can be solved doing these methods. There are plenty of qualified people who work on these animals.
And then they always say “Well, the qualified professionals want them destroyed.”
No, they don’t.
But if you use Cesar’s methods on dogs, they may solve them a bit.
But they won’t solve them 100 percent.
This is anti-intellectualism run amok in dogs. That’s all this is.
He’s a self-made man who draws the hard line.
Gary Cooper.
Dogs don’t need Gary Coopers.
They need enlightened dog management.
retreiverman:
I’m sorry that you think psychoses are exclusively human. I suggest that you talk to some animal psychologists about that. And yes – there is a veterinary speciality in animal psychology. You may not like the specialty, but you can’t claim it doesn’t exist.
I am afraid you are dealing with people on this blog who are more qualified to talk about animal behavior than me or Cesar Millan.
These are the people you are talking about. http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/
This is what they say about Cesar: http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-take-a-stand-against-cesar-millan.htm
You and whoever else wants to go down this route need to understand the professional bodies are opposed to folk methods being applied to dogs.
Have you read Patricia McConnell? She has handled some seriously dangerous dogs. Some of the dogs she talks about in her books are quite hair-raising.
The ‘that trainer doesn’t handle dangerous dogs’ criticism of the criticizers doesn’t fly. There are too many trainers out there using methods that don’t make for exciting adrenaline charged tv that are rehabilitating dangerous dogs. They just don’t have tv shows.
These old methods are dying.
And Cesar is their last hurrah.
I’m not anti-ecollar. I’m not anti-punishment.
I am anti-Tom Foolery masquerading as a serious discussion of dog behavior.
I would not agree with your assessment of the “Hwanggu.” I actually saw Jonbee in person. Granted it was more of a bystander role, but he was not nearly wild, psychotic, or undomesticated as the NG producers played him out to be.
You might want to remember during the episode that Jonbee didn’t have problems roling on his back when he was outside, but only when he was inside. That even Cesar pointed out that Jonbee wanted to flee from him when he was outside. What should that tell you?
I’ve been trying to get the real story on that dog.
Thank you for alerting me to it.
I was getting two contradictory stories when I searched for it.
Is this Ann of Jindo rescue?
I have shiba inu, and am heavily involved in shiba rescue.
this episode sealed the deal on my disdain for Millan.
Well Ann – that’s the problem with TV shows in general – is it not?
They show you something with the intention of making you draw a conclusion and when the conclusion turns out to be wrong, they retreat into the “edited for TV” defense.
You’re right – I don’t know enough about that particular dog. What I DO know was what I was shown in the video, and what I was SHOWN was a wild animal, not a domesticated one. If the video was meant to mislead, it succeeded.
As for what Cesar Millan did with this particular animal, I don’t know because I didn’t see the show. I have, however, read his own assessments about what he’s done with other undomesticated, dangerous dogs. And I believe I did say it is questionable if you can call that training, in the sense that we know it.
If what you say is true, then Cesar can go catch coyotes and turn them into golden retrievers.
Wait, you didn’t even see the episode?!? Then I suggest you watch it on youtube to see it in its entirety. First with the volume off and then with the volume on.
Otherwise, people are going to be very much in their rights to paint you as the stereotypical Cesar flunkie instead of someone who just happens to disagree.
Ann:
I was not referring to the show, I was referring to the video.
And yes, I know what I see and what I see in that video is a wild animal. And that is what I was meant to conclude, so it isn’t suprising.
Apparently, “everybody” knows this particular dog actually wasn’t a wild animal. How they could have concluded that from the video is beyond me.
I’ve read Millan’s books because I try to read anything I can about dog training. I’ve read McConnell’s books too. I agree with some of their stuff, and I disagree with some of it. Knowing what these people say doesn’t make me a flunky for them.
The first dog training book I ever read – back when I was a teenager – was by William Cary Duncan. It made a big impression on me and I’m sorry to say I never met him. But I have met Wynn Strickland. These folks were using positive training techniques before there was even a word for them.
Admittedly, I’ve only seen a few of Millan’s shows – or any other TV shows – because I don’t have the time to watch much TV. I’ve seen enough of them, however, to know what he is mostly dealing with and how he handles dogs. That plus his books. I don’t need to have studied every blasted show he ever broadcast.
Please watch the youtube links that were provided by retrieverman. Maybe you’ve never seen the beginning portion of the episode when the “wild” animal was walking nicely on lead, was laying down on his side in the yard, and allowing his owners to pet him in this “submissive” position.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjLDQmgYd-s
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Is_E0q1jsAE&feature=related
I guess the thing that makes you believe that I haven’t handled any dangerous dogs is the fact that I don’t brag about it? I have dealt with aggressive dogs after spending a lot of time working with very experienced people learning how. I watched them save many dogs from euthanasia: without kicking, hanging, choking, or pinning them to a living room floor. I’m even capable of walking one dog aggressive dog past another without getting myself into trouble and having to choke a dog to get out of it.
I don’t write about because I haven’t figured out how to do it without leading people to take unnecessary risks. I would hate to be as irresponsible about that as Millan is.
Either way, I don’t think it takes a genius to figure out that trying to get dog training advice from a reality show is foolish.
One thing I left out while I was focusing on Terrierman’s mischaracterization of the show was Cesar’s referring to “taming a wild animal,” but your reference to that other TV show brought it to mind.
The animals on that show are undomesticated: truly wild animals that cannot really be tamed because they are, well, undomesticated. It’s kind of the point of the show.
Jonbee was not a wild animal. He was a dog that didn’t want to be pinned to the living room floor. It seems he may have had other issues as he is now at a rescue and available for adoption. But we don’t know what they are because all someone was worried about was creating drama by pinning him to the floor.
indeed, most of Cesar’s stories involve his macho bravery in pinning some poor terrified creature… who could readily taught different behaviors with softer techniques. Stopping a behavior (what Cesar does) is not the same as changing it (what trainers do).
If nothing else, can this put an end to anyone taking Terrierman seriously.. about anything?
Thanks for the reply.
I don’t want to get into a long dialogue here. I’ve been involved in dog training for many years – before Cesar Millan, and, unless you are extraordinarily older than you look in your picture, probably before you.
What I know after all this time is how little I DO know about dogs.
But what I know about humans is that one doesn’t learn dog training from a TV show – or from a book. And I would never suggest such a thing.
What follows aren’t my words, though I wish they were:
A psychosis is defined as a mental disturbance of such degree that there is personality disintegration and loss of contact with reality. This can happen to a dog just as it can happen to a human or to any animal that can perform complex behaviors. Specifically applied to dogs, psychosis involves circumstances in which the dog’s behavior is dangerous to himself or to the safety of others, and in which the dog appears to be unaware of the behavior during and/or very shortly thereafter his actions.
If there wern’t such a thing as a psychotic dog, that would never have been written.
I agree that there are psychological desorders that exist in dogs. Some caused by the need to survive. Usually those can be braught back to a normal life. Some caused by traumas. These need a perticular attention because we have to find what was the source of that trauma, then disengage the mechanic, step by step. Then again, I believe they can be braught back to a normal life. Finally, some desorders are strictly from some “brain malfunction” and these ones, I don’t see much hope for a long life.
As for the dog shown in the video, I would personaly consider it like a “24-7 loaded shotgun”. I don’t think keeping a dog that we can’t trust is the right thing to do (IMO). But hey, what a TV show, fulfilled with high emotions (public wants to see that kind of extreme stuffs).
To what I have seen in my life were bad choices of breeds, wanting a potential agressive dog to be a pet… while it should have become a guard dog that wouldn’t let anyone come close. May be this dog would have been good at that, I don’t know.
As said, the most we evolve in the dog world, the more we find that we know little. As far as I know, each dog is an individual and asks for flexibility in the training to adapt to it.
Taming an animal isn’t my cup of tea and I don’t always understand the need to do so. Some may be thrilled by that (probably). But taming a wild animal to make it a “good citizen”, I think it is not the right thing to do. If an animal cannot be trained, it has no place next to human’s life and has to be either placed somewhere he can live like an agressive animal, returned to the wilderness or disposed. As being part of this society, I am responsible of what my dogs do… I wouldn’t accept to be responsible of any acts from such animal (this refers to laws about owner’s social responsibility). Again, this is my humble opinion.
I’m not sure what the two contradictory stories are that you’ve heard?
1. Cesar cured him. “Like breaking a horse” was a line used.
2. Cesar didn’t cure him. Various stories.
Well… it’s not disputed that Jonbee was given up by his tv owner, Scott Lincoln, to Second Chance at Love Rescue. (SCLR is run by a Cesar disciple.) Jonbee is available for adoption from them. I’m guessing that they have lots of liability insurance to be able to do that.
I met Jonbee and Scott prior to the Dog Whisperer mess, not after. It was on neutral territory so there wasn’t much to see if there was a house-only issue. Part of what did make me uncomfortable about the entire situation was how Jonbee became a symbol to Scott Lincoln in his fight against cancer. He wasn’t seeing the dog, and look how he inflicted alpha-rolling and who know what else inside the house while in his quest to dominate Jonbee.
And then enters Cesar who spent more than a few tv seconds fighting with Jonbee inside the house. (See if you can see the cut from fresh Cesar to sweaty Cesar.) Jonbee goes from throwing “oh-no” body language to resorting to what has worked in the past in stopping what he’s dreading. In a way, he’s fighting the flooding that Cesar is inflicting on him.
Does flooding cure an animal? I don’t know enough to say. My guess is that it may for one set scenario, but any deviation from that set scenario will require more work, more flooding.
How about Jan Fennell, “The Dog Listener” with amichien bonding? Bases her approach to problem dogs on the Monty Roberts, “the man who listens to horses”
Her book has “too many” successes for me, but it is another variation in the mix.
Whenever the Cesar-worshipers pull the “he works with the most severe cases! Red zone! Does YOUR trainer do that?!” card, I’ve found the best answer is to explain about how good trainers don’t allow the dogs they’re working with to switch into their sympathetic nervous system (fight or flight response), usually called working under-threshold.
Of course, then I’m usually asked if I have a TV show.
“‘Cuz if it’s on TV, it’s gotta be cutting edge.”
Perhaps Ceasar just never cut it as a Rodeo Cowboy breaking Horses and Bulls??? So he just went on to breaking the will of dogs.
I like to watch Cesar’s body language. I like to slow-mo the dog fights and other fast reactions–I don’t get to watch dog body language in slo-mo very often. I also like to see where he fails–interestingly, it’s often been with a Lab! It’s rather instructive.
I’m not really offended by what he does with dogs, and I find very interesting the situations where he can bring a previously nutsy dog into his happy-looking pack, but I know his stuff doesn’t work for me. I’ve tried the alpha-roll–might work for others, but if it’s something that CAN work, then I just suck at it. “Flooding” is something that I can’t fathom trying myself with a dog, though I understand it works quite well with an experienced therapist and a human.
Which brings me to why I actually don’t like him–he inspires others to mimic him, and they usually do it at the most inopportune times and in the most inappropriate situations, and they apply his jargon in a bizarre manner. So you get someone that’s never owned a dog saying “My puppy is insecure dominant, but I fixed that by being the pack leader and rolling him.”
Um, yeah.
Of course Caesar is not God; everyone knows “god” is “dog” spelled backwards!….And to Eric Goebelbecker, I know this is nit-picking to most folks, but I must disagree that wild animals cannot be tamed. They can certainly be tamed enough to be approachable, even handlable and trained for specific tasks to some degree of dependability(circus and aquarium animals should make that obvious), BUT, of course, if large, powerful wild animals are having a bad day, and decide to take it out on their human trainers/keepers, it is much worse than if a dog or housecat does(usually–lots of exceptions to THAT too!). What they AREN’T is DOMESTICATED–tame and domesticated are really two different things entirely, which often get interchanged innaccurately(humor me; I’m a Zookeeper…). I personally don’t have anything against people keeping wild animals(very politically incorrect notion for a zookeeper, too!) IF they provide them with a decent life, and have realistic expectations regarding their behaviour(including those inevitable “bad days”!), and keep their animals from harming others. Some private owners give their exotics better homes and more interesting lives than many major zoos do! And many do so without there ever being any serious incidents–you usually only hear about the “boo-boos” in the news–NOT the successful keepers that never have boo-boos. That being said, VERY FEW people really fit this category of knowledge and dedication–I am not for OUTLAWING the keeping of exotics, I AM for liscencing and fairly and sensibly(yeah, good luck with that!) policing the practice. Some people develop incredible bonds with all kinds of critters–I’d hate to see that end for all people for all time. But what were we discussing? Dog trainers? Caesar, beware the ides Of March!
http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/the-concept-formerly-described-as-dominance/
I am doing a post on that link tomorrow.
The footage doesn’t show an element that questions me. In introduction, the dog is being pet, on his belly, in the backyard, etc. Has the dog turned on his back by himself or did the owner turned him on his back ? ’cause, as far as I know, when a dog turns on his back intentionally, it is not a sign of submission…
Having taken a step back after watching the video (2 parts), I was wondering if the dog wasn’t simply “chlostrophobic” because his general behavior inside seemed more under stress than outside. It’s like if outside he could see ways to get away and inside, not.
It good that you’re asking questions. That’s what people should be doing.
Be careful of absolutes in ascribing actions with motivations though.
Take the classic example of a puppy that has soiled the inside of a house. Owner comes home unhappy. Puppy crawls up and shows belly without being touched. Did the owner turn him on his back or did the dog did it himself? The dog did it himself.
To what I observed about this dog, it’s an adult… I haven’t drawn any generalities. An adult dog, not well socialized, not knowing how it works with humans on a general base and not trained would do things that brings it some satisfaction but wouldn’t adopt that kind of attitude you’re describing, don’t you think ?
In this perticular case, there are clear and unclear things and I braught some questions about that for the general interest (I don’t much need those answers).
I don’t get why people say that what Cesar does ‘isn’t training — it’s rehab!’ …of -course- it’s training. And I don’t think suppressing negative behavior is really ‘rehabilitation’.
I understand what Cesar is trying to accomplish, but I still think he’s completely wrong. Just because ‘it works’ doesn’t make it right or not harmful.
referring to JonBee as *cured* after this terrifying experience must be among the most pathetic statements i have heard made about any dog – and i have over 25-years in dogs.
*cured* post-trauma with CM? not hardly –
set-up for the next emotionally-fraught disaster, is more like it.
i am sorry to hear that the dog was given-up to rescue –
not that he is out of that house, but that Jonbees life is once more in upheaval, poor fella.
i can only agree that there are many, many trainers who use effective, humane B-Mod on dogs with severe issues, and have good lasting results…
without A-rolls, pins, chokes, shocks, prongs, -taps-(kicks), any bitey-hands supposedly mimicking a dams bite!, or any of the other punitive, confrontational Human-Aggression displayed by certain TV-presenters (who are Not Trainers) and other off-TV, real-life folks who *claim* to BE Trainers.
…a couple of weeks study of our trademarked-method, and You, Too, can be a professional dog-trainer…
right, yeah, sure.
meanwhile, back in reality –
real dogs with real bite-histories are learning REAL new CERs, conditioned emotional responses, to their former triggers – via B-Mod, primarily with DS/CC, desensitization and counter-conditioning, and almost exclusively UNDER * THRESHOLD… which is why TV-execs are not interested.
its *not exciting*.
as a trainer who *has* worked with biting-dogs, i can say with complete assurance, >> i << found it intensely exciting and emotional when these dogs were able to cope, without aggro or acting-out, in the presence of their former triggers.
and i did not live-with these dogs – believe me, their owners were FAR-more emotional and happily excited than i was! crying tears of joy is not an exaggeration.
my suggestion?
skip suppressing behavior; alter undesired behavior either thru training (ignorant dogs or owners) or B-Mod (emotionally driven behaviors). it saves time by going to the root of the problem, and UNLIKE confrontation + punishment, the risk of fallout is gone.
all my best,
— terry
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
Terry
well done!!! I agree and aplaude your honesty.
People, trainers and owners alike, need to educate themselves, not just take the easy option and believe all that TV says is true. IMO lazy and gulable owners, and some trainers, watch the dvds and the TV programmes and go practice on their poor dogs in the self belief that they can train dogs. Who, lets face it, 90% of whom have the good grace and mannors not to tell us to stop being so brain dead and recognise that they are trying to communicate with us, the other 10% just get fed up and tell us to “go away” in thier own way, and get killed for it. Obviously I havent done the numbers so dont throw fruit it’s just a guess. We are a species who are so consumed with world domination and exctingtion of other species we just dont have the ability to believe that perhaps we are just like the dogs and cats and other creatures on the planet, its just that they all get along and do dont the damage we do in our self belief of the Dominat species.
The “do not try this at home” warnings that flash up certainly made me sit up and take notice, why should I not try this at home after all is he not adored by millions because of his magic way with dogs? Wow what a trainer all that sucess and no education. But please do not try this at home.