I have seen this particular photograph many times in golden retriever history publications and website. It is always pointed out that the yellow retriever on the far left is Nous, the foundational sire of the yellow wavy-coated retriever strain at Guisachan. He looks almost exactly like a golden retriever of today, and at the time, he would have been considered a very typical wavy-coated retriever that had a lot of St. John’s water dog ancestry. He may have been entirely of this ancestry. His breeder, Lord Chichester, left no record of Nous’s ancestry. He was a “sport” in a litter of black wavy-coat pups, and he was given to cobbler at Brighton in lieu of a debt. (I don’t know what sort of debt a landed gentleman would owe a cobbler, but that is the story.) Dudley Marjoribanks, 1st Baron Tweedmouth, encountered the yellow retriever at Brighton in 1864. We all know his story fairly well.
The dog at the far right is the dog that now Scottish nobleman could be without– a Scottish deerhound or “Highland deer greyhound.” This particular dog appears to be a fawn– a color that has since disappeared in modern deerhounds. Every Scottish sportsman tried his hand a deer-stalking or deer coursing. In both activities, a wiry deerhound would be necessary. With coursing, it is self-explanatory, you have to have a sight hound for that activity. In deer-stalking, if the hunter merely wounded the deer, he would sent forth a brace of deerhounds to bring down the wounded stag– an action somewhat reminiscent of retrievers. (Stonehenge would classify retrievers and deerhounds together for this reason).
I think it is likely that the second dog from the right is a black and tan wavy-coated retriever. It could be a Gordon setter, but I am a bit skeptical for another reason. The Marjoribanks family used their retrievers to hunt deer. The dogs generally tracked the wounded ones, but there is a least one account of a retriever named Mars jumping into a bog to “retrieve” a wounded stag. Because of their use in deer-stalking, it would make sense that the family’s retrievers would be displayed with the deerhound.
The final dog in this photo is a bit nebulous. From a distance, the second dog from the left looks like a young golden retriever or a maybe a smaller individual. However, at this time, the majority of all wavy-coated retrievers were on the larger, more heavily boned side. Most looked like Nous and the black-and-tan dog– except that the vast majority of these dogs were solid black in color. Most of these dogs were broad-headed and very “Newfoundlandly” or perhaps very much like the “English Labradors” of today, just with long hair.
This dog’s head is all wrong to be a typical wavy-coat of the day. Its ears are more low-set, and the head is almost conical in shape.
When I first saw this photo, I thought nothing of it, except that this dog looked like a different type of yellow wavy-coat than Nous.
A well-known golden retriever historian pointed out to me today that this dog could have been a “Tweed water spaniel.” Then I remembered a description of the Tweed water spaniel’s head, and I realize that this dog has something like the conical shape that was ascribed to this extinct breed from the Scottish Borders and Northumberland.
Every description of this breed I’ve come across points to the similarity between this breed and other retrievers, so wouldn’t one expect a Tweed water spaniel to look something like a golden retriever?
If this dog is a TWS, then it might be Belle. Belle was born at Ladykirk in the Scottish Borders country, which near the Nothumbrian town of Berwick-upon-Tweed, where the 1st Baron Tweedmouth had been the MP. The Marjoribanks family had roots in the Scottish Borders, and the family had an estate in the region. It would have made sense that the 1st Baron Tweedmouth would have been familiar with this yellow or liver water dog.
By the way, I do not know when this photo was taken. It could have been before 1868, when Nous and Belle were bred together to produce the foundational litter for the strain. If so, then Nous would have had the golden retriever trait of developing a white muzzle in middle age. Perhaps he is the source for the premature graying that is so common in the breed!
Nous also has something in his mouth.I have no idea what it is. He was very much a retriever, and this trait was defintely passed on to his offspring, as this painting of Mary Marjoribanks and either Cowslip or Primrose, bitches that Nous and Belle litter, would suggest.
Judging from the appearance of either Cowslip or Primrose in that painting and that of Ada, another bitch pup from that litter and the foundational bitch of the Ilchester strain of these yellow retrievers, the Tweed water spaniel used in that cross had to have strongly resembled a golden retriever or a “yellow wavy-coat.” The golden retriever phenotype was established early on in the breeding program. Indeed, Nous himself could easily have passed for a modern golden retriever.
The Tweed water spaniel or Tweed water dog didn’t closely resemble McCarthy’s strain of Southern Irish water spaniel at all. And this confusion, I think has led more than a few people astray. Everyone has scoured the old paintings and photographs looking for something like a yellow version of that breed, but they should have been looking at those of small yellow retrievers instead.
I don’t know if this dog is Belle or even a Tweed water spaniel. It could be, judging from the fact that it doesn’t resemble the typical early wavy-coat of that day.
But one would expect that this bitch would have not been radically different from Nous or the modern golden retriever.
The Guisachan kennel book mentions quite a few different breeds. The retrievers made up a small portion which included Nous and his offspring. Marjoribanks had quite a few pointers and of course deerhounds. I have read a diary of his that tells stories of his deer hunting which seemed to be one of Marjoribank’s favorite past times.
I believe that is a Gordon Setter and I wish I had my stud book copy unpacked so that I could verify and will verify that later unless someone else could now.
I like the idea that Belle might be in the photo but I have to question a few things. One is that we are looking at the front of the dog’s head and I believe that you really have to look at the side to see if it is conical which I think means having less stop. The other thing is that the photo is very poor and it is really hard to see. What does that dog’s coat look like?. Does someone have a really good copy of the original photo? Belle should have long heavy ears too which that dog might have but again they are unclear. The one thing that looks possible is that the Tweed Water Spaniel was supposed to sometimes have “crooked forelegs” and also be smaller than the other English water spaniels.
It would be so nice to think that Nous and Belle would be together in a photo. I hope that someone can turn up a better copy of some of these photos of Marjoribank’s dogs.
It could have been a Gordon setter, but many, many wavy-coated retrievers were black and tan like this.
There are still black and tan labs (and chocolate and tans, of course):
http://www.guidingeyes-md.org/Misc%20Files/Black%20and%20Tan%20LabradorsBCWEB.htm
I have also seen a photo of a known black and tan golden retriever/Labrador cross. The e/e color in goldens can mask those color patterns.
If the photo was around 1870 as noted, The black and tan might be a Retriever named Meteor who was sired by Garry and doesn’t have a dam listed.
Garry is offspring of Paddy and Gypsy. It’s possible that Paddy was liver and Gypsy was black… would that allow for Black and tan?
It wouldn’t. Black and tan is a variant of the agouti series:
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/agouti.html
Meteor is the only dog that I encountered in the book that has a sire listed and no dam. Not sure the color of Garry or his parents. Meteor is dated right for the photo.
This is the actual description: “They were very light liver colour, so close in curl as to give me the idea that they had originally been a cross from a smooth-haired dog; they were long in tail, ears heavy in flesh and hard like a hound’s, but only slightly feathered – fore legs feathered behind, hind legs smooth, head conical, lips more pendulous than M’Carthy’s strain. The one I owned, which was considered to be one of the best of them, I bred from twice, and in each litter several of the puppies were liver and tan, being tanned from the knees downward and under the tail. I came to the conclusion that she, at any rate, had been crossed with the bloodhound.”
The part about smaller and crooked legs is referring to a similar dog found in Ireland and might not pertain at all to the Tweed Water Spaniel.
“Ears heavy in flesh and hard like a hound’s” has no reference to the length of the ear. There are many Goldens even todoay that have the thick heavy ear, rather stiff and “hard” as described, but of normal size for a Golden Retriever. And the description does say “only slighty feathered”; quite different from the M’Carthy or southern IWS and more typically “retrievery”.
I found my copy!
He had Setters, greyhounds, Pointers, Spaniels, Beagles, Under Retrievers at first he has three… 2 black and one liver. The liver one says Irish Spaniel so maybe that is what the commissioned picture is… He lists Clumber Spaniels, Deerhounds, There is a retriever named Gypsy “pupped” June 1850 by Col and Steam which was with William Tomline and Robert Discon… he had a bitch who was “pupped” that “died mad” at Guisashan or maybe her whole litter… Brag and Nell
He lists a retriever named Paddy bought at Brighton Nov 1854 and Boatswain given to him by Lord Monte? 1854
he keeps tabs on hunted prey such as 81 grouse, 112 B game, 24 Roe, 24 stags…
retrievers are Gypsy out of Col and Steam, Paddy, Alma out of Paddy and Gyp and Mars with no info… – 1857
I don’t think you’d be keeping a setter for eer-stalking, which we know he used his retrievers and deerhounds for.
He also had a lot of Skye terriers. He was very well-known for those.
His daughter, Ishbel, would become very famous with her Skyes.
The Skye terriers were his wifes and are not ever listed in his book.
Tweed (ladykirk breed) 1862 – 52 stags 1197 grouse 42 woodcocks
tweed is listed as a retriever
When Nous is first listed he is Lord Chichester breed June 1864 Brighton
That year there were 4 retrievers:
Garry out of Paddy and Gypsy
Tweed given by Robertson
Nous as listed above
Wip – from William Rufsells
Then there are 14 Pointers, and 5 Deerhound
I think that not all the dogs make it into the book for each listing unless there is some particular note about them
Also Wip was listed only that one time
I’m just listing dogs in case something here rings a bell for you…
The following year the retrievers are Garry Nous, Tweed (listed dead, 1862), and Belle 1863
Whoever Mars was is listed as bred the same year as Belle and Nous. Maybe he is the Black and Tan?
Oh, never mind that about Mars, he is a pointer.
Retrievers listed in 1868 are:
Garry, Nous, Belle, Alma “Bushy head” from Edward, Meteor, and Sancho.
So Sancho appears and the Nous and Belle litter is born so maybe that is why Trench was confused?
Those dogs didn’t appear in the golden retriever bloodline. Just Nous.
The story about Mars I’ve read is that he was a retriever.
Yes, they duplicate names quite a bit. There is mention of a Mars retriever but not at the same time as Nous.
Under Retrievers:
Mars was a breeding of Paddy and Gypsy in 1857… no description
It was a different Mars. It’s in Marcia Schlehr’s book on the golden retriever– The New Golden Retriever.
It’s very good!
Yes, I agree!
I think VERY highly of her opinion!
That’s “Bushey breed, from Edward”– meaning, the dog was bred by Edward who lived at Bushey in southern England. Not clear whether this was DCM’s brother Edward, or DCM’s son Edward, who both lived at Bushey while the younger Edward was attending school.
The only retrievers listed in 1870 are Nous, Belle, Crocus, Primrose, and Cowslip… he remarks and in 1872 he has Nous, Belle, Cowslip, and Tweed. This Tweed was also given by Robertson so there were 2 retrievers named Tweed and he is also a ladykirk breed.
I do human genealogy and find it fascinating. This is very similar. Things can be looked at for years and all of the sudden something jumps out and connections are made. It is what makes it so enjoyable. I never question a person’s assumption, only try to play off of them to try to shake up the view of the information so that possibly something is revealed that was there all along…
This photo from Guischan shows TWO big yellow dogs. Nous is easy to point by his noble posing. I little doubt the dog in the pic in your blog is Nous. It just doesn’t have any of his style.
http://treetopgoldens.com/images/origin229.jpg
That’s a later photo– 1880ish 1890ish.
That photo with horses and dogs is certainly after 1894 when Edward inherited Guisachan on his father’s death; could be as late as 1906. The lady in the photo is probably Lady Fanny Marjoribanks (Edward’s wife). I’ve seen this actual photo in person.
The photo above is indeed Nous. It is inside the stud book with an arrow pointing to him saying Nous, first yellow retriever. Wish I had a good copy of it!
No. The photo dates to 1898. The clothing they are wearing is not 1860′s garb. It is 1890′s-early 1900′s clothes:
http://goldenelisey.narod.ru/english/information.english/history_golden_retrievers.english.html
http://www.goldenretrieverclub.net/cms/de-golden-retriever.html
That dog appears to be much darker than Nous. The people in it are wearing clothing that looks much more twentieth century than nineteenth.
There appear to be four “golden retrievers,” and 3 of the 4 are much darker in color than Nous or Belle and their offspring.
I’m referring to the photo posted in this blog not in the link. There is a note on it saying “around 1870.”
Ah. Sorry for the error.
1870 would make sense.
Could you comment on my last two posts about the Tweed water Spaniel? You probably have read the books that they came from already but I hadn’t seen them and they give more credence to the above photo being Belle: http://golddoghistory.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/tweed-water-dog-is-a-cross-with-a-newfoundland-dated-1816/
http://golddoghistory.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/tweed-appearance/
I won’t fill up your blog with this… sorry
After a restless night, and much pondering, I am on board with this theory. http://golddoghistory.wordpress.com/2011/05/01/more-mystries/