From AllenFilm
These dogs are mountain curs, but feists are also widely used.
You could see the utility of using a golden retriever when the squirrel is shot.
Mountain curs are multi-purpose hound-type dogs that have lots of other things in them, including terrier and Native American dogs. This was once the landrace farm dog in West Virginia, and I think they ought to be West Virginia’s state dog.
The feists are a terrier-type dog. The rat terrier is either a feist or a close relative (It depends upon who you ask). They are not like Jack Russells. They are generally game dogs, but not so game that they’ll go to ground and get their faces torn to bits fighting game (which you have to control for if you’re using an earth dog.) Generally, a pack of feists won’t easily engage in interdog combat in the way that Jack Russells do. That’s why if you have three Jack Russells in the same room, you’d better watch them like a hawk.
Now, those are the two common breeds used as squirrel dogs. Where I grew up, squirrel hunters used Norwegian elkhounds (my grandpa’s favorite dogs), collie-types of all sorts, and even beagles and other scenthounds. Today, some squirrel hunters are using Jack Russells as squirrel dogs.
But no one has come up with using a golden retriever as a squirrel dog. Maybe I’m the only one.
I have a few toy fox terriers. That they are close cousins to rat terriers and that a lot of back and forth breeding was done is only denied by those who are highly romantic.
Breed larger, gamer, heavier built 6-8 pound toy fox together and you will some times get a 12-16 pound dog with much more prey drive. But they do value their own safety too much too stick their face in front of a predator or shred each other, at least most of them.
My friends husband is a houndsman. He keeps a mixed pack of hounds and curs and also several laceys and crosses (he tends to bring dogs home with him from out of state hunting trips) . She brought home a largish toy fox whom her husband has co-opted and the dog has been hunting with him for small game on and off for four years and sleeps at his head at night.
We put a 14 pound male (son of the aforementioned dog)with my in-laws. He bring home mice, rats, voles and the occasional small rabbit and at least one ground squirrel, much to my mother-in-laws dismay. My father-in-law has no issues with it as he grew up on a farm in Indiana and the dog is the spitting image of the fox/rat terrier he grew up hunting rabbits with. He says the dogs were known by a dozen different names in his neck of Indiana alone
Of course breeding small toy fox together, the chihauhau crossed in once upon a time will crop up too, producing the weedier, trembly and crooked legged buggy eyed little dogs.
I knew a rat terrier squirrel dog that looked like a toy Manchester, black and tan with “candle flame” ears and a whippet’s tail. She was an interesting dog. All 8 pounds of her were working feist.
I have known both rat terriers and feists, including feists that were probably derived from rat terriers or looked like them. They are terriers in that they are genetically related to the earth dogs. However, I’ve never known one to go to ground and fight in the same way as Jack Russell or hunting dachshund (Teckel). I’ve never known packs of feists to get into the fights I’ve seen Jack Russells engage in. The earthdog terriers just have a very different temperament from feists and rat terriers.
I’m not familiar with the toy fox breed. Some of these toy dogs really shouldn’t be toys. They are actually small working dogs.
The really tiny miniature dachshunds we have today are thought of as cute little pets, but they have a function. In Germany, they are called “rabbit dachshunds,” and they are designed to fit down rabbit warrens. A little dog with a prey drive has a function, and that’s something that a lot of people forget when choosing one of these little dogs. I’ve known cavaliers to go birdy. In fact, I’ve seen them get more birdy than most American cocker spaniels.
Very interesting. Is this type of hunting better suited to a smaller dog? The ones in the video look to be close to 20lbs. Small but proportionate.
Any dog that is nuts about chasing squirrels and barking at them as they run from tree to tree can be used as a squirrel dog. This skill isn’t very hard to train. My grandpa always just took his dogs into the woods as puppies and got them to chase squirrels. Then he took them into the woods during squirrel season and shot the squirrel. That would make the dogs think that if they just go crazy when the squirrels are in the trees, there will be a loud noise and the squirrel will fall from the tree.
The toy fox are traditionally said to be descended from small fox (read rat terriers) terriers, combined with some toy manchester and chihauhau and possibly some min pin.
Toy fox/small rat were almost certainly the same breed until someone decided they weren’t.
I would not be surprised if manchesters were not also used in with rat terriers
Toy fox are considered a companion breed, but many of them have a strong prey drive. Like rat terriers they have been registered with UKC for quite a long time. They are also an AKC recognized breed. Many are dual registered.
They are more gracile in general than rat terriers. I’ve seen many that resemble rat terriers and rats who look like large toy fox. In spite of the toy designation many have a strong drive top work and hunt. BUT they do turn it off and will switch modes into lap dog far more easily than the jacks I grew up around.
Some look like weedy, poorly constructed, shaky little dogs. The worst traits of mass produced toys. Those were the dogs I had previously experienced and was shocked at what a sturdy, tough, well put together dog they can be.
On the interesting genetics side, they all begin to roan or gray out very early in life. White hairs about the eyes not being uncommon at 8-12 months. It has given rise to the idea that they live 20 years or more commonly as a 3-4 year old with an unknown history may be judged to be far older
Rat terriers have Manchester in them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Terrier#History
I have always assumed that the toy fox were simply a particular color and size of rat terrier someone decided to make a separate breed out of.
Good ol’ Wikepedia.
A friend was at some “coon dog trials” and went just nutty over what he described as blue and blue-merle, kind of raggedy looking feist-dogs that looked like their agenda was to chase and kill anything that moved… he was smitten! He said they “looked like they have gumption.” He was told they were squirrel dogs (and he actually hunts squirrels). He was shocked at their price at the time, but after some general research isn’t. There were cages and cages of them.
But–he can’t find any photos on-line that look like these dogs, and he can’t seem to find a breed or type name or any further information. They don’t look like any dog he’s seen with any other hunters. He doesn’t want to wait until the next “coon dog trial” to look into them a little bit more.
Any idea what these dogs were? Or are they just too local?
I have no idea, but I do know that there is a cur that comes in that color, the Catahoula cur. I don’t know of any feists.
What he described sounded like a feist to me. Perhaps it was a small cur. Whatever it was, it made an impression of, um, compact ferocity and determination.
I’ve had squirrel once. Even buried in campfire chili and consumed along with some type of brown alcohol passed in a brown bag, it tasted like something that had led a very hard life.
Why have a treeing dog, gun and retriever when all you need is one feisty, fetchy English Shepherd? Mine will chase a squirrel, kill it and then eat or fetch it (my choice). A shotgun would probably make the work a bit more efficient – but I still wouldn’t need an extra treeing dog.
I don’t have an English shepherds, and if one of my dog’s killed the squirrel that would be a BAD thing. English shepherds are used as squirrel dogs. They would bring in the milch cows in the morning and evening, hunt squirrels in the afternoon, and guard the farm at night.
My collies will also tree squirrels, although only the girls have much desire to actually kill the little vermin (Mal thinks they are escapee-pet-rats and hence something to Alert Mom To And Fetch Back, but he thinks he’s Lassie….), apparently not having recieved memo about how they are supposed to be stupid pointy-headed showdogs. :P
Collies might be returning to their former glory. That’s what happens when they drop off in popularity. You get room to adjust and heal your bloodlines.
Yup, thank goodness- now we just need to get the people who appreciate those traits being preserved back into the breed after they all fled to BCs and Aussies and Cardis and ACDs…..