• Home
  • About
  • Become my Patreon
  • Contact
  • Facebook

Canis lupus hominis

The Retriever, Dog, & Wildlife Blog

Feeds:
« The History of the Devil
North American Wolves, Great Plains Native Americans, and Native American Dogs »

More accounts of friendly wolves and wolves and dogs hanging out together

November 2, 2009 by retrieverman

Karl Bodmer Sioux dogs

Check this out.

Most wolves that exist today fear people above all things, and if a dog, coyote, or strange wolf pops up in a pack’s territory, it is dead.

Even the wolves of Ellesmere kill interlopers in their territories, and these wolves are believed to have experienced no (or at least very little) persecution from man. These wolves do, however, live in land that is very marginal habitat, and any territory that a breeding pair can procure will be defended aggressively.

The wolves of the Great Plains in those accounts were living in a productive ecosystem with plenty of prey. These wolves were very similar to how I would imagine the ancient wolves that were able form a relationship people. They could hunt large prey on their own, but they were curious about humans. These wolves were approaching people who lived off of American bison as a prey species. I can imagine those ancient wolves approaching mammoth and mastodon kills in search of some scraps and maybe a little companionship.

(And yes, I’m fully aware that the bison hunting culture of the Great Plains was a very short-lived culture, but it is just as likely that man and wolf had a similar relationship when they were living on other species.  Both Eurasia and North America possessed ecosystems that were very productive and diverse the end of the Pleistocene. Then, agriculture gave rise to large numbers of humans, who then went after most of the megafauna that survived the effects of that climate change–like the aurochs.)

That’s why I continue to say that domesticating the wolf had to have been so easy that a caveman could do it. If the wolves of yore were like these animals, domestication would have been a cinch.

Posted in dog domestication, wild dogs, wildlife, wolves | Tagged dog domestication, the history of wolves, wolves | 9 Comments

9 Responses

  1. on November 2, 2009 at 4:37 am More accounts of friendly wolves and wolves and dogs hanging out … - Pasarici.NET Blog

    […] the ancient wolves that were able form a relationship people. … Read the original post: More accounts of friendly wolves and wolves and dogs hanging out … Share and […]


  2. on November 2, 2009 at 11:34 am PBurns

    Something else was going on in the Plains: MASSIVE Indian Mortality. Massive. The apocalpyse of disease.

    Prior to the arrival of the horse (and even after) the Indians used dogs as transportation and they were part of their culture. Some tribes ate dogs, some did not, but all had dogs and quite a lot of them. A village in the far west, prior to Lewis and Clark, might have 1,000 dogs (10 per tent was very common).

    When tribes disappeared, their dogs did not, and many went feral, accounting for the large number of “wolves” seen in the Plains. Some of these “wolves” were wolves, and some coyotes, but many were Indian dogs gone feral after their masters died of disease.

    The Indians had a broad array of dogs (including a terrier-like spitz-looking dog that went into beaver lodges), but most were large enough to pull Tipi poles on a 12-foot tent, and most looked a lot like wolves except that their tails tended to curl over their backs.

    When people saw dogs hanging out with wolves, my bet is that those “wolves” were recently feral Indian dogs, and there were LOTS of them as disease wiped out millions.

    Patrick


    • on November 2, 2009 at 1:30 pm retrieverman

      But don’t you think Lewis and Clark would have lost their Newfoundland dog, if wolves were exactly like they are now? He just wandered around. He even disappeared when the Indian dog bitches came into season. If that happened in wolf country today, he would be a dead dog. I don’t care if he had been the size of the modern Newfoundland dog. Take him to outside of Anchorage today and turn him loose. He won’t last a week.

      The travois dogs were similar to wolves but were just slightly smaller than coyotes. I think they could tell the difference. Here’s Maximillian’s depiction of the Travois dogs: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Engag%C3%A9_mit_einem_indianischen_Hundeschlitten_by_Maximilian_zu_Wied-Neuwied.jpg

      From my reading of the accounts, the difference was that the wolves would actually hunt bison, while the dogs would either join the people or just wait until the big hairy things were dead.

      I think there were a lot of gene exchanges between these dogs and wolves. The true travois type no longer exists, because the Newfoundland dog and the Arctic husky-type wound up replacing them. I think that’s why when MtDNA analysis is performed on reservation dogs, they always come up as derived from Eurasian wolves. It’s like that they had little immunity to European dog diseases, just as their ancestors did. Arctic huskies, even those from North America, are derived from Asian wolves, and Newfoundlands are, despite their appearance today, mostly derived from a poodle-type water dog ancestor.

      What we did to the wolf is the Belyaev experiment in reverse. If we can select for tameness and dociliity in silver foxes in just a few generations, you can select for paranoia and emotion reactivity in just a few generation of coming up with bizarre ways to kill wolves. And we did it for more than just a few generations.

      Also, my account of the Beothuk in Newfoundland seems to suggest that they had population of docile wolves (that they didn’t feed but did mark with their knives). The Beothuk most likely had no dogs as we know them, although dogs would have been found at European settlements and those of the Mikmaq.

      As for one part, there is common theory that the vast herds of wild animals that existed prior to European settlement were the result of the massive die-off the Native Americans. I certainly think that had something to do with it. (It is best discussed in Valerius Geist’s book on deer. The problem is that it is as speculative as what I’m doing here). But I read account after account of how the Indians had actually developed hunting parks for deer that were far more sophisticated than those the nobles used in England. It seems to me that they actually knew how to use the land sustainably because they actually relied upon those animals and other resources for long-term benefit.

      When Europeans, especially English commoners, showed up, they had a strong antipathy toward game laws. Game laws protected the prey of the nobles, while the commoners went without. When they arrived here, they were all into land speculation (all the way down to the indentured servants) and making as much money off the natural resources as possible. Others wanted to turn North America into Europe, which had also been made depauperate of large game species.

      The natives had a different economic outlook than the Europeans did, which does make a big difference to the ecology in the long run. A different land ethic means quite different outcomes in terms of human population and ecology. If you believe the natural world feeds you and that you must sustain it for the community forever, you will behave differently from someone who has deep class resentments towards the nobles in your own country who use game laws to protect animals on their vast shooting estates and who also is coming into the land to turn this country into Europe, while making as much money as possible.

      I remember reading how some bands of Inuit did population control. They had voluntary death panels. When someone got old and felt like a burden, they left the village and wandered off into the wilderness to die. If a woman had two babies and one could not be fed, one was left behind in the snow. They also knew how to do their own population control.

      BTW, the Bison-hunting culture that existed in the nineteenth century was really short-lived. It was very unusual.

      This is is how George Catlin depicted bison hunting without horses: http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/131219/1/Hunting-Buffalo-Camouflaged-With-Wolf-Skins,-C.1832.jpg

      Those aren’t dog skins they are wearing.


    • on November 2, 2009 at 1:39 pm retrieverman

      BTW, the little terrier-type dog of the Native American is a very interesting dog. The one that the Tahltans kept I call the Canadian bear-hunting Chihuahua, because that’s what it looked like. It was about the size of a JRT: http://www.firstnations.de/img/05-3-0-dogs.jpg

      These dogs don’t exist anymore, although some people are palming off reservation dogs that are larger and look like them as Tahltan bear dogs.

      ***
      Here’s a part of Farley Mowat’s Never Cry Wolf that isn’t a total fabrication. This is the Ihalimiut legend about why the wolf got created: http://books.google.com/books?id=eQQ0cxgL5bMC&lpg=PA125&dq=farley%20mowat%20kaila&client=firefox-a&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q=&f=false

      The Ihalmiut were an inland band of Inuit that lived almost exclusively on caribou. That particular book came right after The People of the Deer, which really was a non-fiction account of these people, and if he had been a bit smarter, he would have written a book called The Ihalmiut and the Wolves, because that’s really what the book is about.


    • on November 2, 2009 at 2:00 pm retrieverman

      I just remembered that Alexander Henry was a fur trader, and he would have known the difference between dog and wolf pelts. Dogs have thicker skin than wolves do, and thus, he would have clearly known what was a dog and what was a wolf.


  3. on November 2, 2009 at 6:56 pm Lane Batot

    Ahhhh, someone ELSE that realizes Raymond Coppinger’s drivel is just that–DRIVEL! There are LOTS of accounts of early American Indian dogs being wolflike and/or crosses with wolves and coyotes. I have even read things as specific as saying the Indians preferred animals one quarter wolf and less, for tractability(which I can personally agree with). It is simply common sense if you think about the scenario before Europeans screwed the system up(my humble opinion there…)–lots of loose dogs around Indian villages–females in heat regularly. Lots of young male wolves wandering about–ejected from their packs, or just out trying to establish one of their own, or just horny and Alpha-dad won’t let me mate in the homme pack, so….. It would be IMPOSSIBLE for there NOT to have been crosses! As for Indians keeping pure wolves–it certainly happened sometimes–they kept ALL MANNER of wild pets–bears, cougars, buffalo calves, Pronghorn antelope, etc. etc. I read where one Indian society, named the “Kit Foxes” got it’s start from a fellow that kept one as a pet. My favorite wolf/Indian story is from James Willard Schulz’s book “Why Gone Those Times”–the chapter entitled specifically “Laugher, the Tame Wolf”–this wolf actually went on horse raids, etc. with his Blackfoot masters, and assisted them quite a bit. The story rings true to me. The Native Americans having dogs AT ALL rather blows Ray Coppinger’s theory of them developing in the Eurasian Mesolithic period around agricultural dumps, because Native Americans ALREADY HAD THEM when they came across the Bering land bridge in the frikkin’ Pleistocene(the ICE AGE—thousands of years BEFORE agriculture and settled villages!), and the first archaeological evidence of dogs in America are well before Coppinger’s dump mutts could have even been domesticated yet! AND I can verify that wolf-hybrids make VERY effective hunting/wilderness companions, because I have raised and trained 5 of them myself over the years! Uh oh, here comes the knee-jerk reactions from the ploitically correct set!…..L.B.


    • on November 2, 2009 at 7:25 pm retrieverman

      Check this out: http://anthropology.net/2008/10/18/a-possible-domestication-of-dogs-during-the-aurignacian-31700-years-ago/

      Coppinger only makes sense if you ignore all the history, paleontology, archaeology, and antrhopology that is related to it.

      Of course, not everything he writes about is crap. His analysis of livestock guardian dogs is pretty good, but a lot of them will exhibit predatory motor patterns. Ideally, they exhibit little to no predatory behavior, but they will guard. And Coppinger does a good job attacking the dog fancy, which I have quoted on here.


  4. on November 2, 2009 at 8:42 pm Lane Batot

    Okay, I misspelled “politically correct” by accident, but I kinda like the first version, and may use it in the future! On Coppinger, yes, I was referring mostly to his doggy-domestication-pitiful-attempt-at-a-theory. His Livestock Guardian stuff is accurate, because he had lots of actual experience with LSD’s. His wolf comments are way off base, and show extreme prejudice(not very scientific) and lack of knowledge–knowkedge that is readily available from many resources-so there’s no excuse for such a “researcher”. His negative comments about service dogs having miserable lives, while praising the lives of racing sled dogs(which are often brutish and short! And I’m not knocking ALL sled dog people–I AM one! But to portray the one as mostly bad–service dogs– and just ignore the abuses in the other–racing sled dogs– was inexcusable!). I am just amazed that after 10 years from the publication of his book(and numerous television appearances and lectures) that he has not been challenged MORE with the plethora of Anthropological and Archaeological evidence to the contrary! One of my greatest pet peeves, actually, and I have been encouraged by many to write MY OWN book on doggy domestication! I might just get around to that one day, IF I can quit blogging about it!…….L.B.


  5. on January 28, 2010 at 4:38 am Bridget

    Do u know Kim La Flamme and his pages at
    http://www.indiandogs.com/timeline.html
    You can even buy The little black & white T-Bear Dogs there :)



Comments are closed.

  • Nature Blog Network
  • Like on Facebook

    The Retriever, Dog, and Wildlife Blog

    Promote Your Page Too
  • Blog Stats

    • 5,502,941 hits
  • Retrieverman’s Twitter

    • I have no words… wp.me/phvWb-7wq 1 day ago
    • The lost days of dogs and children wp.me/phvWb-7wj 2 days ago
    • Hybrid origin of the pit bull revealed in new studies wp.me/phvWb-7wc 4 days ago
    • Churchill and Homer wp.me/phvWb-7w6 6 days ago
    • youtube.com/watch?v=VRs05I… O'Reilly talks to Jesus. 6 days ago
  • Community

  • Google rank

    Check Google Page Rank
  • Archives

    • April 2015
    • March 2015
    • February 2015
    • January 2015
    • December 2014
    • November 2014
    • October 2014
    • September 2014
    • August 2014
    • July 2014
    • June 2014
    • May 2014
    • April 2014
    • March 2014
    • February 2014
    • January 2014
    • December 2013
    • November 2013
    • October 2013
    • September 2013
    • August 2013
    • July 2013
    • June 2013
    • May 2013
    • April 2013
    • March 2013
    • February 2013
    • January 2013
    • December 2012
    • November 2012
    • October 2012
    • September 2012
    • August 2012
    • July 2012
    • June 2012
    • May 2012
    • April 2012
    • March 2012
    • February 2012
    • January 2012
    • December 2011
    • November 2011
    • October 2011
    • September 2011
    • August 2011
    • July 2011
    • June 2011
    • May 2011
    • April 2011
    • March 2011
    • February 2011
    • January 2011
    • December 2010
    • November 2010
    • October 2010
    • September 2010
    • August 2010
    • July 2010
    • June 2010
    • May 2010
    • April 2010
    • March 2010
    • February 2010
    • January 2010
    • December 2009
    • November 2009
    • October 2009
    • September 2009
    • August 2009
    • July 2009
    • June 2009
    • May 2009
    • April 2009
    • March 2009
    • February 2009
    • January 2009
    • December 2008
    • November 2008
    • October 2008
    • September 2008
    • August 2008
    • July 2008
  • Recent Comments

    BorderWars on I have no words…
    massugu on I have no words…
    massugu on I have no words…
    UrbanCollieChick on The lost days of dogs and…
    YRYDYCE on The lost days of dogs and…
  • Meta

    • WordPress.com
  • Pages

    • About
    • Become my Patreon
    • Contact
    • Facebook
  • e college finder

    Online Colleges
    Online Colleges
  • Email Me

    retrieverman1[at]yahoo.com
  • Art

    • Conservation Photojournalism
    • Demon Puppy
    • Historical Hound
    • LolaDot Photography
    • Lucinda Coldrey
  • Blogroll

    • 2dogcrazy
    • Academy for Dog Trainers (Jean Donaldson)
    • Action for Sighthound Adoption and Protection
    • Agile Gold
    • Allie Chronicles
    • Almost Heaven
    • Alpine Publications
    • American Barbet
    • Ann and I
    • Ask Dr. Yin
    • Azawakh Idi! Idi! Idi!
    • B-More Bulldogs
    • Birdchick
    • Blacksheep Cardigans
    • Border (Collie) Wars
    • Born-to-Track News & Views
    • Brad Anderson
    • Bronwen Dickey
    • Camera Trap Codger
    • Caninest
    • Cao Preto
    • Chathamhill Dogs
    • Code Name: Farm Collie
    • Cold Wet Nose
    • Confessions of a Canine Junkie
    • Conservation Photojournalism
    • Crappy Taxidermy
    • Demon Puppy
    • DesertWindhounds
    • Dinsdale Photoblog
    • Djinn34
    • Dobermann Daze
    • Dog Breeds of the World
    • Dog Bytes
    • Dog Politics (UK)
    • Dog Spelled Foward
    • Dogs and Wolves (Elaine Chaika)
    • Dogs Don't Look Both Ways
    • Dogs, dogs, and more dogs
    • Dogsnhorses
    • Dogstar Academy
    • DogTime Blogs
    • Durrell Wildlife Trust Blog
    • Ella Bay Forever
    • Fallowfen Gundog Blog
    • FirstDogCharlie
    • For the Pits
    • Frogdog Blog
    • FromZooMy
    • Full Cry
    • Gamebird Litter
    • Glencuan Pointers
    • Gold Dog History
    • Golden Obsessions
    • Golden Retriever Comunidad
    • Grey's Days
    • Guiding Golden
    • Gundogdoc’s Blog
    • Happy Doggie Blog
    • Hemmingford Dog Blog
    • Historical Hound
    • Hoof & Paw
    • HT Training
    • Ian Dunbar
    • James Marchington
    • Julie Zickefoose
    • K-9 Solutions Dog Training Blog
    • KC Dog Blog
    • Kennel Jacklaine's
    • Leah DVM
    • Lehrhund
    • Lumi and Laddie
    • Lurchers, Terriers, and Ferrets
    • Musings of a Biologist and Dog Lover
    • My three pups
    • Mystery of My Hairless Chihuahua
    • National Lacy Dog Association
    • No Kill blog
    • Novaforesta Barbets
    • Olduvai George
    • One Nation Under Dog
    • One Pibble's Wish
    • Online Dog Training
    • Out Walking the Dog
    • Pedigree Dogs Exposed Blog
    • Penin kulmilla
    • Pippa's Blog
    • Pitter Patter
    • Pointing Dog Blog
    • Prick Eared
    • Rainwolves Weblog
    • Raising Maple–A Murray River Curly Coated Retriever
    • Rat Hunters
    • Rat Hunters
    • Responsible Dog
    • Retriever History
    • Samuel's Blog
    • Save the Pit Bull, Save the World
    • Scott Shalaway
    • Sherlock and Noah
    • Sixteen Paws
    • Smart Dogs
    • Stephen Bodio’s Querencia
    • Steve Dale's Pet World
    • Sugar The Golden Retriever
    • Swamp Dogs
    • Tails of Gold
    • Tattoos and Terriers
    • Techichi.org
    • The Bark Blog
    • The Calmo Dog Blog
    • The Cooper Project
    • The Daily Coyote
    • The Life of Jalo
    • The Other End of the Leash
    • The Poodle (and Dog) Blog
    • The Public Domain Kennel Club
    • Totally Dogs
    • Turid Rugaas
    • Tyson the Pit Bull
    • Utah Neff
    • Welcome to Chelsea’s World
    • Working Cocker Spaniels
    • YesBiscuit!
  • Dog links

    • Apso Rescue- Colorado
    • Ariosa Spanish water dogs
    • Back to Basics to Improve the Breeding Selection Process by Robert Milner
    • Bi-Mar Pomeranians
    • Collie Family Tree
    • Dog +R/-P Resource Page
    • Dog Breeds of the World
    • Dog Phylogenetic Tree
    • Dog School Tv
    • Evolution of the German Shepherd in 30 Generations
    • Flat-coat Library
    • Golden Retriever Club of America's National Health Survey
    • Golden Retriever Rescue in Nebraska
    • Gundogz
    • Gyldenpels
    • HeatherWeb
    • Huggable Goldendoodles
    • Inbreeding as a way to select against genetic disorders?
    • Is the Closed Registry System Doomed?
    • Krassesrudel
    • Louter Creek Red Hunting Poodles
    • Mac Barwick's Bloodhound History
    • Martin's Goldens
    • Newfie World
    • Old Time Farm Shepherd
    • Robert Milner’s Retriever Training Site
    • Some Practical Solutions to Some Welfare Problems in Dog Breeding
    • Telescope: Farley Mowat–CBC Archives (Features St. John's water dogs)
    • The "Blue Collar" Retriever
    • The "Ideal" Golden Retriever: How Do You Find Such an Animal?
    • The Bark
    • The Chinese Crested Shrine
    • The Honey Wolf
    • The Truth about Fox Pens
    • Things to consider before getting a Field Trial Golden Retriever
    • Tuska Homma Catahoulas
    • UK Golden Retriever Health Survey
    • Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat
    • What's wrong with using 'dominance' to explain the behaviour of dogs?
    • Zomarick Golden retrievers
  • Must Reads

    • Border Wars Inbred Mistakes Posts
    • How to breed dogs with stronger immune systems?
    • MHC, DLA, WTF?
  • Other Links

    • The Heck Cattle of Devon
  • politics

    • Ed Schultz
    • Gerry Spence
    • Huffington Post
    • Kicking Ass
    • Of Principalities and Powers
    • Shannyn Moore
    • Thom Hartmann
    • West Virginia Blue
  • Poodle and Water Dog History

    • History of Newfoundland Dogs
    • History of the Buccleuch Labrador
    • Origin of the Cao de Castro Laboreiro
    • Poodle History-Ship's Dogs
  • Reminder for me

    • Reminder
  • Zoology

    • Centre for Fortean Zoology
    • Ella Bay Forever
    • NatureBreak.org
  • Subscribe to Retrieverman's Weblog by Email
  • Revolver map

    Map

  • Top Posts

    • Why bigfoot cannot be Gigantopithecus
  • Blog Catalog Member

    Cats, Dogs and Other Pet Blogs - BlogCatalog Blog Directory
  • SiteCounter


  • Donate to this blog

  • Top 50 Northwest Dog Blogs

    top 50 dog blogs
  • Top Dog

    Top Dog Blog
  • This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License.

Blog at WordPress.com.

The MistyLook Theme.


Follow

Build a website with WordPress.com
%d bloggers like this: