Canis lupus hominis

Posted in Absolute Piffle | Tagged Robert Burns | 22 Comments

22 Responses

1. on January 26, 2010 at 5:45 am Bill

   R-

   I really need your help. I own working English cocker spaniels from purely field lines. The bench / field split in our breed is as old as anyone can remember. The parent club however, is 99.9% show.

   The more I learn about the dog fancy, the more I am convinced that it’s ok to make a judgement that breeding dogs for ability is “less evil” than breeding dogs for conformation and fashion. The prevailing sentiment among field breeders is pure moral relativism. Live and let live, and to never criticize the breeders of silly, less fit bench dogs, all while lamenting the bench / show split.

   If you could go back 50 years, or to a time when working Goldens and show goldens were roughly equal in number, what would you say to the breeders? Could you tell the field breeders that their breed is being ruined, and encourage them to somehow “take back” their breed? Or would you advise a sepratist path like what Deutch Drathaar owners have done to seperate themselves from GWPs (mandate ability testing before a dog can be called a DD)?

   It just seems to me that if someone would challenge and expose the kennel club matrons, maybe even push for a basic working instinct test requirement, English Cocker could become shorthand for capable spaniel, and the dog show people would move on to permantly f*cking up some other breed.

   What are your thoughts? Are splits inevitable, and to be encouraged, or should field breeders try and retake the reins?

   
   
   • on January 26, 2010 at 9:51 am glencuanpointers

     It would be naive to suggest that the only people who follow fashion are the breed fanciers and that the working enthusiasts are free of this fault. I have owned only two cockers but in dog terms was reared at the knee of Will Sloan who bred Speckle of Ardoon. At the moment nobody wants anything other than black or liver cockers when lemon and white or even gold would be a much more practical colour combination. Having spent last Wednesday in Woodcock Rise, one of the drives used in this years Spaniel Championship I can tell you that my Clumber dog was much easier to keep tabs on than the cockers.
     Under Irish K C rules a dog that wants to become a F.T.Ch. must have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th award in Open, Limit, Graduate or Ft. Class at a Champion Show. I don’t mind that so much as it ensures that dogs with two heads and three testicles don’t get put up but a Show Champion doesn’t need to display any working ability to be made up. Then we have the “Full Champion” title where a Show Champion becomes a Full Champion when it gains an award at a trial or passes the SGWC. Our show brethern turn backwards summersaults through hoops of fire if they get that one.
     As far as I am converned I wouldn’t mind a recriprocal arrangement where Working dogs need show qualifications and Show dogs need working qualifications. The one sided arrangement offends my sensibilities.

     
     
     • on January 26, 2010 at 1:54 pm retrieverman

       Well, that’s basically what they are trying to do with golden retrievers. The AKC club is pushing dual purpose dogs, even though they are very, very, very split.

       I would be willing to consider requirement for show conformation for working dogs, but only if the standards were rewritten to allow for less bone and darker colors, simply because that’s where most of the ability is. The split in goldens has a lot to do with the disdain for dark colors in the ring and for a different type of dog than the kind that moves efficiently in the water and in heavy cover. I actually disagree with what the standard is producing. I don’t think it is being used to produce the most efficiently moving dogs possible, especially when it comes to swimming light on the water (which is very important for a retriever).

       The split has gone both ways. I think some of it comes from the fact that a very dark, lightly boned golden retriever resembles an Irish red setter (which is an ancestor) or a red flat-coated retriever (which is derived from the same root stock).

       Even Clumbers have split. The only British gun dog breeds that haven’t split are those that come from very strong dual purpose clubs that have been at it for a long time (flat-coats) or are very rare (Sussex spaniels).

       The dog we call the Deutsch Drahthaar is a dog that would be called a German wire-haired pointer. However, its registry uses a German system, unlike the AKC German wirehair. Conformation and working ability are very strictly enforced, and the dogs can’t be used for breeding unless they pass certain working tasks, which are far more strenuous than the working gun dog certificate.

       Have you seen what working pointers look like in the US?

       

       The pointers that are used here are almost exclusively used to hunt New World quail in the Southern plantation country. The heat and humidity requires a small dog, and there is a tendency to breed for predominantly white pointers. I see HPR’s in this part of the country (Brittanys and the German HPR’s) and what are called Llewellin setters (which is sometimes considered a field strain of English setter). I almost never see the pointer proper. It’s become a dog of the Southern plantations that have become quail preserves.

       
       
   • on January 26, 2010 at 2:22 pm retrieverman

     What I would have done is to have gone back to 1873 and ran for president of the KC. I would then set up a decentralized registry and base it on the rules of the JRTCA. http://www.therealjackrussell.com/jrtca/registry.php

     Splits are basically inevitable so long as the competition remains very strong in both field and conformation. One of the things driving the split in goldens is that people want a dog that finished its championship early, so they breed for a dog that has the bone and coat development at one year that it should have at three. By the time the dog is three, it looks like this: http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/show-golden.jpg

     The GRCA is trying to recreate a dual purpose dog, but the lines are too split.

     The English cocker started to go in this direction simply because it was a smaller spaniel, and small spaniels are the ideal fashion accessory. Elizabeth Barrett-Browning had one named Flush, and Flush was from a working line of cocker. However, he was kept as a pet, although he liked chasing birds and rabbits. She wrote a poem about him: http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/ebbrowning/bl-ebbrown-toflush.htm

     The English cocker started to develop some real problems in the UK. As far as I know it never popped up here but it did in another breed, which I will explain shortly. The English cockers were attacking people for no reason. These were nice dogs one minute and maneaters the next. No one could figure out what the problem was. It was called Avalanche of Rage syndrome. An analysis of English cockers in the UK found that the red-colored ones were more likely to attack than the other ones, but no one could find another “red” breed that was so similarly disposed.

     Then, the same issue popped up in American show-line English springers. It turns out that the red color wasn’t causing the rage (and I still get this tripe from people who think that dark colored golden retrievers are more aggressive!). It was that breeding for a certain gait in both English springers and English cockers was causing a defect in their brain chemistry, making them more likely to attack. It wasn’t color at all that was making them develop this problem. It was this gait. Because red English cockers were very likely to be of the show lines, it appeared that red dogs were more likely to develop these disorders.

     I’ve been trying for a long time to figure out how to solve this problem. I have no good answers.

     
     
     • on January 26, 2010 at 2:47 pm Sengimage

       “I’ve been trying for a long time to figure out how to solve this problem. I have no good answers.”

       Outcrossing with Field Spaniels for type? Sounds simple, but with the registry being what it is… more like a snowball’s chance in hell.

       
       
       • on January 26, 2010 at 2:51 pm retrieverman

         

         That’s what field spaniels once looked like.

         
         
2. on January 26, 2010 at 5:57 am Bill

   btw, If anyone could convert me to communism, it would be Burns.

   
   
   • on January 26, 2010 at 2:35 pm retrieverman

     I don’t think it has anything to do with communism, but I do know that Scotland, especially Glasgow, is known for its communists.

     
     
3. on January 26, 2010 at 1:18 pm labpack

   glencuanpointers, a well-known U.K. breeder used to call the Show Champions “shame champions”. ;)

   
   
   • on January 26, 2010 at 2:16 pm glencuanpointers

     Did I?

     
     
4. on January 26, 2010 at 3:29 pm Bill

   I was under the impression that the Field Spaniel was the only spaniel invented purely for conformation shows. I have heard that some are really good flush/retrieve dogs, but this must be a complete accident.

   Regarding working cocker fashion, I prefer dogs with white bodies, in the hopes that he/she may be slightly less likely to be shot.

   
   
   • on January 26, 2010 at 3:42 pm Sengimage

     What I learned from reading this blogspace and confirmed from researching afterwards is that often in the early history of these spaniels the litters were sorted by type. A litter of English or American or Field spaniels could yield a dog that looked like any of the three types. This seems to still happen today as my American Cockers have produced litters where the type of some looked more English or some had slightly longer bodies and looked more like the field type.

     Actually sounds very similar to what happened in the early history of Flatcoats and Goldens as some of the darker Goldens and the lighter Flatties were sorted by type based on the color produced and classified as such. Also learned on this blogspace.

     Things that make you say hmmmmmm?

     
     
     • on January 26, 2010 at 5:29 pm retrieverman

       There are people who are trying to breed a working American cocker that has less coat. It’s very hard to find them.

       I think the temperament issues are finally starting to be resolved in that breed.

       
       
       • on January 27, 2010 at 3:43 am Sengimage

         I can’t say I know what the problem with sudden rage syndrome is. I’ve never met a properly raised and socialized Cocker that wasn’t calm and awesome with children pulling tugging and hugging. Like our own children the dogs we keep eventually wind up becoming a product of the environment they are raised in. just like with human children…. Poor environment… not so good dog. Not humanizing dogs. But just applying common sense. In doing so you might find that 99.9% of all bad dogs were a result of something gone wrong on our part, whether its poor selection in breeding or the methods of socialization. Maybe the remaining .01% are just beyond help or possibly a pup that normally would have been the fading pup in the litter but survived due to human intervention. If there is a sudden rage afflicted American Cocker, I thankfully have not witnessed it. On the other hand I’ve witnessed some rather vicious Flat Coats and Goldens…. again, not mine, but judging by the clueless owners it was pretty clear what went wrong with those dogs.

         
         
         • on January 27, 2010 at 4:32 am retrieverman

           Rage syndrome doesn’t exist in American cockers. It’s only in the show versions of English cockers (in Europe) and the show version of English springer spaniels in North America. I have heard that it exists in golden retrievers, but I’ve not seen it. I see more issues with possessiveness and general pushiness in goldens. That’s what aggressive American cockers are like, but since they’ve lost popularity, it is very likely that this aggression problem will work its way out.

           Rage syndrome is scary. The dog is nice one minute, and the next, he is after you.

           
           
         • on February 3, 2010 at 6:52 pm Liz

           Sengimage- sudden rage syndrome is thought to be a form of epilepsy and is not influenced by socialisation, cluesless owners or other environmental factors, but tends to respond to antiepileptic treatments.

           
           
           • on February 3, 2010 at 7:04 pm retrieverman

             It has to do with the shift in brain chemistry that occurred when breeding for a particular gait in English springers in North America and English cockers in Europe. It is thought to be related to some sort of seizure disorder, but I’m not sure that the studies say it is the epilepsy that exists as an inherited disorder in spaniels.

             
             
   • on January 26, 2010 at 5:37 pm retrieverman

     Most working English springers are predominantly white. http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/34356-working-vs-show.html

     There are just so few working English cockers in the US, but they have the advantage of coming in a wide range of colors. There are lots of roans and parti-colors in the English cocker breed. And from what I’ve seen, the field lines are mostly these colors.

     Unless I see the dog in action or have some scale reference, I have a hard time telling these dogs from French brittanys, which are an HPR.

     French Brittany (one of those is an American Brittany, the big oen): http://frenchbrittanytraining.com/images/our_gang_.jpg

     English cockers: http://www.workingenglishcockers.com/photogallery.html

     English springer: http://www.shetlandsheepdogs.us/Dogbreeds/Lip%27s%20pedigree,picture.jpg

     
     
   • on January 27, 2010 at 4:35 am retrieverman

     There was a fad in the mid and late nineteenth century to breed short-legged spaniels. Field spaniels got very short legs. They were originally an intermediate size that you could get from breeding springers to cockers. You could get all three, plus dogs that would be called Welsh springers in the same litter.

     Sussex spaniels didn’t always have short legs. Stubbs painted one with long legs in the late eighteenth century:
     http://www.globalgallery.com/enlarge/65594/

     Somewhere in the mid 1800’s, they were bred for short legs, which is an inconvenient fact for many Sussex spaniel fanciers (the few that still exist).

     
     
5. on January 27, 2010 at 6:52 am Bill

   The Sussex leg thing is exactly what I am talking about! You would never see working lines of English Pointers losing half their leg length over a few dozen generations, for no good reason, but fashion. If it happened, you can bet that would be evident in the work they do.

   What do fanciers of caricature breeds like this (and there are a lot worse dogs than SSs) say when people tell them that their hobby comes at the expense of the fitness of the dogs? That working line may get cut, snakebit, shot, stung, bitten by a badger ect.

   
   
   • on January 27, 2010 at 1:36 pm retrieverman

     What they say is most dogs aren’t used for anything. They are pets, and if they are pets, it’s what we think they should look like that should be the determining factor.

     
     
6. on January 27, 2010 at 11:16 am Karen

   There are two statues of Robert Burns in Victoria Australia. The one in Sturt St Ballarat has him standing with a retriever type dog that looks very much like our Murray River Curly Voated Retriever. Now this was sculptored circa 1880.

   The other statue was in the gardens in Camperdown Victoia. This is currently being repaired and is earlier. The dog is also very much like a Murray Curly….

   Obviously Robbie was a dedicated retriever man and liked the curly type of retrievers!

   
   

Comments are closed.