Even though Clumber spaniels are quite uncommon, there are enough of them to foster the development of a distinct working type and a distinct a conformation type. It is not as extreme as it is with English cockers and English springers, but it exists.
The conformation type is heavier-built and approaches the St. Bernard in conformation. The working type is more moderate in build, as one can see with this retrieving Clumber.
It is amazing to me that these two types have evolved, and rarer breeds tend to remain more or less similar in appearance. One only has to look at flat-coated retrievers to see that this breed doesn’t vary as much in type as the closely related goldens and Labradors do.
Rarer British gundog breeds and those from the European continent tend to have less divergence in type than the more common British breeds.
It would be interesting to find out why Clumbers have started down this particular split. This breed is the traditional working spaniel in the UK, and it is very likely that certain strains existed solely for work. And from those strains, this type of Clumber developed.
I am having some difficulty determining which type came first. Historical depictions of this breed include both gracile and heavy-set forms.
Hi,
Darrell Reeves , in dogs about 40 years,is my husband, a past Retriever man and HT, and Trial judge, He has chosen clumbers and has worked VERY hard in the USA, to prove there is NO split in the clumber breed. The AKC rep for the breed, and wrote the clumber Hunting Style.
We take our hunting dogs to the show ring and win. We take our show dogs to the field and hunt hard for weeks.
In England they have made two spearate breeds, or the field people have. They are smaller and hunt more like a springer. If you want a hunting dog that hunts like a springer, get a springer.
Please go to the Clumber Spaniel Club of America’s website where you can read articles and the voice of the National club that there be NO split.
Darrell has written numerous articles for field/hunting magazines, our co breeder also recently has a 4 page spread in Gun Dog mag. His name is Mitch Rollins, Chequemagon Clumbers.
I find what you have written insulting and incorrect. Please reconsdier what you have written.
We are available for future dialog.
darrell and carol reeves
Woodsman Clumber Spaniels-Oregon
In the UK, there has definitely been a split.
In the US, there hasn’t been because this dog is quite rare.
I generally don’t listen to breed clubs without confirming evidence. Their publications are quite like Pravda. I deal with my own breed’s club publications exactly the same way, as some of the fanciers here with attest.
http://www.workingclumber.co.uk/
Can you honestly say that these dogs are exactly the same as the ones that win at Crufts or Westminster?
I think not.
There’s nothing– nothing– wrong with splits. My own breed has lots of splits in it, and that way different people can select from them.
Are Clumber spaniel people in denial about this?
Perhaps so.
The reason why there has been no split here is the breed is quite rare.
And I didn’t say the UK working dogs were like springers. They obviously are not.
A Crufts this year, things were little different:
http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2011/03/crufts-2011-day-one-good-news-story-2.html
I do not think Carol is in denial. She and her husband Darrell are extremely knowledgeable and have a history of Champion Clumbers who also have junior, senior and even master hunting titles. They both recognize, as do other Clumber breeders, that in UK while there are still those who have both conformation and hunting titles, the breed is somewhat split. The point Carol is trying to make is that while there may be a split in the UK, thus far there is not a split in North America. There is not a split because, whether you agree with their efforts or not, dedicated breeders like the Reeves, the Wickwires, the Connells, the Rollins, the Fromans, the Frasers and the Brizes, among others, have worked long and hard to keep the breed from becoming split. They want show dogs to be able to hunt and hunters to be able to show, and they have thus far been successful.
The Clumber Spaniel Nationals start in just over a week near Orlando, Florida. Hunt Trials will be held on Saturday, April 23, and Sunday, April 24. Many of the dogs who are in the Hunt Trials will later that week be entered in Conformation and many of them will do quite well, competitive for Best of Breed and for Awards of Merit. Come see for yourself and talk to people who both show and hunt before you make a final judgment. Because something is true across the pond does not make it true here. If you cannot make it on this late notice, there may be Clumbers entered in Hunt Trials in Pennsylvania or Ohio early this summer and I will let you know.
Phyllis Potterfield
CSCA Public Education
P.S. Where do you live in West Virginia? I am in Charleston and also have a camp in Greenbrier County. I have two Clumber girls who do not hunt but whom I would be happy to have you meet.
The reason why they haven’t split in the US is because they are very uncommon.
As soon as you get numbers, you will see what happens.
I can show you exactly where golden retrievers split, and it had to do with numbers.
I can also show you line for line in the AKC golden retriever standard where the conformation is meant to be an adaptation.
And we still had a split.
I’m in the 79-Corridor area.
In addition, without being told that is a clumber spaniel (undocked), I would have guessed it was an english setter.
You cannot see the head type, the legs are too long, too much rear angulation, in addition the body is too short.
Clumbers are long and low, the dog pictured is not.
We may be a small community, but we have a strong group that hunts with our dogs quite well, as Phyllis writes, come and see proof, reread the Gun Dog article.
Open your mind and don’t bash a breed, we are all hunting birds, same results, different styles.
What do those things have to do with working conformation?
Why does a spaniel benefit from looking like a modern Newfoundland dog.
Where do you get English Setter out of that photo??? I have owned several show and field english setters and none have been built like the Clumber in the photo.
Not the same dog as shown at Westminster. Wrong again.
My top show bitch, # 1 show bitch in the USA, winner of the Drumhill Ladies Award, the Gable Award-one of only 7 ever clumbers, and other awards, was shown at Westminster. The same year she was #1 show bitch, she also finished her Senior Hunter titles, and hunted two weeks in Nebraska along with Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Montana.
Ch Woodsman Emma Peel, CD,RN TD,JH ,SH CGC,WD
We may be small in number but there are many that hunt and show in conformation. We want breed type, not just hunting abilities.
Breed blindness.
Have you talked the Neo mastiff people?
They talk exactly the same way!
Can you show me where in your standard the breed type has anything to do with function?
I can show you it to you exactly in mine.
My guess is the tradition is to breed Newfoundland spaniels.
These dogs aren’t springers. They shouldn’t be springers.
But they shouldn’t be Sussex either.
And Sussex spaniels are going the way of the dodo.
I am not sure that merits a response, as you clearly have not done enough research on the long history of Clumbers as flushing spaniels. when I have a little more time I will send you a reading list or perhaps ask one of our historians to correpsond with you.
As Carol wrote: “Open your mind and don’t bash a breed, we are all hunting birds, same results, different styles.”
Phyllis Potterfield
CSCA Public Education
I didn’t bash the breed.
This breed has definite utility!
I just asked what the purpose of being built like a Newfoundland is.
I can tell you that in golden and Labrador retrievers, we have two body types and the ones that are built more like that have some issues with endurance, especially in mountainous terrain.
I can tell you the golden color in golden retrievers is meaningless to the dog.
And I readily admit that golden retrievers have real issues.
I actually don’t want to meet you.
These dogs do have a function.
I never said they were useless.
They aren’t failures like Sussex spaniels.
My last post was to your earlier one. Yes, there is language in the Clumber standard that addresses function. I would be more than happy to point it out to you but I suspect you will only be satisfied if you read it yourself: http://www.clumbers.org/AboutClumbers/BreedStandard.php
Phyllis Potterfield
CSCA Public Education
I see some good language about forequarters and hindquarters.
But why should the dog be so massively built?
Is there a reason for it?
If you can’t answer that question, that trait won’t last if the dogs are bred specifically for trials.
The dogs won’t become springers. But trialling dogs has as distorting an effect upon them as conformation shows.
But that, of course, assumes this breed would become popular enough to lead to specialization.
Rarity is what has kept the type split from occurring here.
Nowhere did I say that these dogs were useless or should become extinct. My guess is they would do far better in a heavily covered place than a springer or cocker. And they are slower, too, which means they aren’t terrorizing the birds as some springers are wont to do.
I have insulted Sussex spaniels on this blog.
But I have respect for Clumbers.
We seem to be crossing in the mail so probably enough said for today. I will let know about any Hunt Tests relatively close by where Clumbers will be entered just in case you decide it might be educational and fun.
Phyllis Potterfield
CSCA Public Education
Here’s something instructive:
http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2010/10/08/intellectual-honesty-on-the-effects-of-trials-and-shows/
This is a different breed and a very different context, but this conversation is very similar.
I say something that contradicts established thought within a breed, and I get called a person that hates the breed.
Motives are given to me that simply don’t exist.
All I did was state what happens to any gun dog breed that cannot justify it’s conformation requirements. It’s very clear in the historical record. If it’s a British gun dog breed and it has some feature in the show ring that makes it less efficient in the field, the dogs will split.
I asked for justification for the exaggerated massive body type.
I can tell you that this same has driven a major split in the two most common breeds of retriever.
You seem to have missed one of the strengths of the breed. They were bred to go through hedge rows, thick bushes.
Through not over as a springer or cocker.
We do not compete in field trials. We do not have field trials for clumbers. We have non competitve hunt tests. Field trials are for fast dogs, our dogs are not as fast so could not “win”.
The GENTLEMAN’S HUNTING DOG , stays in close, hesitation flush.
That makes absolutely no sense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen%27s_Rule
My guess is you people haven’t thought about this when you breed for such cobby, massive dogs. This is why working type retrievers usually aren’t built like “English” Labradors. This is why pointers from the south are tiny little things that remind me oversize Jack Russells.
Dogs are much poorer at releasing excess heat than humans are.
It is also not a trivial concern, and in a competitive situation, even a marginal advantage such as this one will have a definite selection pressure.
This is one force that would drive a breed split, should Clumbers become popular again.
And yes, it does get hot in England. I’ve been there in June when it was just as hot as it was here!
That’s it, I am going to see this clumber trial/test in Orlando in late April. It will be at least 88 degrees with high humidity. It will be clear how these dogs cover ground in that sort of extreme conditions.
I will withhold my judgement until then. It will either be an impressive display of dual dogs that perform in spite of their conformation, or insanely dangerous/irresponsible weather to conduct a trial/test.
My guess is you won’t be trading in the little cocker for one of these.
The last spaniel test I attended in FL was in March and most handlers soaked their pups in a cattle tank, just prior to their run. The conditions were terrible for the dogs.
I’ll eat my hat (and probably buy a clumber) if these massive and profusely coated show dogs perform.
Breed splits are a good thing, as long as breeders are honest and don’t deny reality. People can have a better chance of finding a dog that suits their particular needs. Field-bred dogs of any breed are not well suited to most suburban families.
A Clumber wouldn’t be a bad family pet or a gun dog in my part of the country, which isn’t a giant reclaimed subtropical and tropical swamp!
Clumbers are good in heavy cover, so I hear, which would be great for here.
Now Scottie, you know that Florida has traditionally been covered in bobwhites. They’ve had the same declines as everywhere, but palmetto scrub and pine flatwoods make good cover.
You are right about the pointers down here. 40-60 lbs., white, and you can count every rib.
As I’ve written before, bobwhites are almost extinct up this way. We still have a season on them, but the bag limit is quite low.
How do you ensure there’s no split? Are you so Nazi that only geezers get the breeding stock, passed down through wills, and fix all the puppies before they go to people’s homes?
You can’t.
They tried really hard in golden retrievers. They had a functional-based standard, very scientific and practical.
And it still happened.
“This breed is the traditional working spaniel in the UK”
Not sure there ever were, but most definitely not now. You never see them these days. Springers, cockers and sprockers dominate.
Jemima
The original English spaniel was typically red and white, and the Welsh springer is closer to this.
However, the old depictions of “Welsh cockers” show dogs that look like the less exaggerated Clumber.
My guess is the two breeds have a common origin. They have the same color, but the Clumber has something else in it that was crossed in at a later date. Bulldog? St. Bernard? Who knows.
This is what Clumbers looked like in the 1850’s:
I can’t remember which Stonehenge work that came from.
Here is a Welsh cocker: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/111._English_and_Welsh_Cocker.JPG
There is also this dog named Corrin, a Welsh springer that looks very similar to those old Clumbers: http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/corrin.jpg
Compare Corring with this painting of a Clumber:
The original British spaniel was red and white and a bit heavier set. Just as the Welsh held onto the Brythonic language, they also held onto the old red and white spaniel.
I don’t buy for a minute the official history of Clumbers coming from France. France has no tradition of flushing spaniels. All French “spaniels” point.
The giant spaniel that we know as the Clumber is not the traditional spaniel, but the old red and white or lemon and white spaniel is. The original Welsh springers were the last survivors of that race.
http://www.fineartprintsondemand.com/artists/stubbs/bay_hunter_springer_and_sussex_spaniels.htm
The springer is the little red and white dog.
The Sussex is either pre-Rosehill or non-Rosehill.
I find one of the biggest scandals is that the only dogs that became KC Sussex spaniels were Augustus Fuller’s heavily inbred Rosehill strain. That strain nearly died of either rabies or some inherited neurological condition, and then was patched together with survivors from other kennels. Relf, the keeper at Rosehill Park, readily admitted that the dogs were heavily inbred– this was at the time of Bakewell.
The original distinction of Sussex spaniel was that they were liver, not that they were short-legged or long-backed. That’s was Mr. Fuller’s “improvement.” The majority of English spaniels were red and white.
It was only in the latter part of the nineteenth century that black and white and liver and white English springers– which absorbed the Norfolk spaniel– became more common.
Here’s a “water spaniel” from the late eighteenth century named Quaille who was very similar to a Clumber:
http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2010/01/31/an-english-water-spaniel/
I don’t know if he was a water spaniel or not, but he looks like a Clumber from the 1850’s.
The fact that his name was Quaille makes me skeptical about his “water spaniel” bona fides, but he might very well have been an English water spaniel, just of a very different sort than the one behind the curly-coated retriever and American water spaniel.