Canis lupus hominis

Posted in golden retriever, golden retriever history, working retrievers | Tagged golden retriever, golden retriever history | 28 Comments

28 Responses

1. on June 18, 2011 at 6:00 pm Djanick Michaud

   I hope someone has a cue on what dog it is. Nice one ! Where have you got that picture from ?

   
   
2. on June 19, 2011 at 3:07 am glencuanpointers

   [quote]It’s very unusual to see a photo or a painting of a dog of any sort wearing a collar. [/quote]

   You obviously don’t spend that much time looking at european dog sites.

   
   
   • on June 19, 2011 at 7:30 am retrieverman

     From that time period and earlier and of retrievers, you will never see a dog with collar.

     They are “non-slip dogs”

     You never see photos of show dogs with collars on them either, because the collar breaks up the outline and distracts too much from the presentation.

     That’s probably why these old photos and paintings show so many collarless dogs.

     
     
     • on June 19, 2011 at 10:33 am labpack

       So, the photo of Buccleuch Avon (standing) must be quite unique collar-wize… ;)

       
       
       • on June 19, 2011 at 11:23 am Djanick Michaud

         I trid to find any references on “Buccleuch Avon” and couldn’t find anything… from where have you found that dog’s name ?

         
         
       • on June 19, 2011 at 11:23 am retrieverman

         Yes.

         The only exception I’ve seen are things like Neapolitan mastiffs, which have an historical collar that goes along with them.

         You really can’t show off the outline of a neck or the musculature of the neck when you have a collar breaking it up.

         
         
3. on June 19, 2011 at 11:08 am glencuanpointers

   http://media.photobucket.com/image/golden%20retriever/Lizbeth991/Manips/Golden_Retriever.jpg?o=2

   This was the very first photo that came up when I googled photos of retrievers with collars.

   
   
   • on June 19, 2011 at 11:22 am retrieverman

     Look at any breed book or any historical painting or photo of a well-known dog, you will NEVER see a collar on it.

     I’m not talking photos of pets.

     
     
     • on June 19, 2011 at 11:28 am Djanick Michaud

       I agree on that. “Official presentations” of dogs have no collars on. There may be exceptions but very few… In shows, dogs don’t wear collars, neither in FT’s or HT’s, so I guess that’s the reason why “offical pictures” don’t show any collar.

       
       
     • on June 20, 2011 at 11:45 am M.R.S.

       The photo of Ada (Nous x Belle) with 5th Lord Ilchester, in Elma Stonex’s book on Golden Retrievers, clearly shows her wearing a collar, FWIW. A well-known photo of Don of gerwn shows him on lead.

       As for the dog pictured, I’d guess that it is from the 1920s-1930s; maybe a bit earlier. Surely you must have SOME information as to the photo’s provenance.

       
       
       • on June 20, 2011 at 5:22 pm retrieverman

         Actually, all I’ve got is it’s from the early to mid twentieth century and it’s a golden.

         
         
4. on June 19, 2011 at 7:45 pm glencuanpointers

   If you look at the Buccleuch site Avon and Ned were Labs.

   
   
   • on June 19, 2011 at 9:11 pm Djanick Michaud

     that dog doesn’t look much like a lab : feathery tail, mid-long coat…

     
     
     • on June 19, 2011 at 9:48 pm retrieverman

       Many people don’t understand that Labradors as we know them today are not the same thing as the old water dogs of Newfoundland that are ancestral to the retrievers.

       Labrador retrievers are not Canadian or from Newfoundland (and certainly aren’t from Labrador), but they are derived from a retriever-like water dog. If you count the Labrador retriever as Canadian, then you have to count all retrievers as Canadian.

       My guess is that if we ever did some DNA analysis, I bet we’d find that the all the retriever, except for perhaps the toller, are just modifications from the St. John’s water dog. Add a bit of water spaniel, collie, or setter to get a novel trait but the bulk of the breeding is this old water dog.

       
       
       • on June 19, 2011 at 10:43 pm Djanick Michaud

         That’s a knowledge I have about retriever’s origins…

         My point is that I don’t find that picture on the website of that breeder… so I can’t confirm that the dog is really the one that is said.

         An other point is on the overall shape of that dog. Compare it to Noranby Campfire and you’ll see what I mean. Also, taking a good look on that “sepia” finish picture, it is clear that the dogs is in the dark gold range. Finally, I gave a close look to the picture, the graphic quality, definition, etc. and it appears to me that the picture was taken in the 20th century. All this lead me to doubt about the name / breed that was said previously. I may be wrong daugh…

         
         
         • on June 20, 2011 at 3:46 am labpack

           The picture of Buccleuch Avon (b. 1885) you refer to is to be found in “Stud Book of The Duke of Buccleuch’s Labrador Retrievers” with text: “AVON, 1885. AGED.”

           
           
           • on June 20, 2011 at 9:59 am Djanick Michaud

             Is the picture you refer to in the “Stud Book of The Duke of Buccleuch’s Labrador Retrievers” the one shown on top of this subject ? The picture I saw there is only a head of a labrador, I haven’t found there the one on top of this page.

             
             
             • on June 20, 2011 at 10:43 am labpack

               Buccleuch Avon, standing – and wearing a collar…

               

               
               
               • on June 20, 2011 at 2:42 pm Djanick Michaud

                 OK ! Thanks ! I didn’t understand what “Avon” had to do with the picture as the initial subject was “does anyone knows who is the dog on the picture”… I thought that you were saying that the dog on top of this subject was “Avon”… but it’s only about the collar.

                 
                 
   • on June 19, 2011 at 9:37 pm retrieverman

     They are actually registered as Labs, but Avon was born in Newfoundland and was a St. John’s water dog.

     
     
     • on June 20, 2011 at 3:37 am labpack

       Buccleuch Avon’s parents ( Tramp x Juno) were importations of Lord Malmesbury, so I think its quite logical that Avon was born at the Duke of Buccleuch’s kennels.

       
       
       • on June 20, 2011 at 8:29 am retrieverman

         I thought he was born in Newfoundland. I know I read that somewhere.

         
         
       • on June 20, 2011 at 8:33 am retrieverman

         It would not have been unusual to import a whole family of these dogs, even it included several relatively old dogs and their get.

         Particularly if you were into breed preservation as these two people were.

         I know I remember reading somewhere that Avon retrieved something that fell off a ship on the way to England.

         
         
         • on June 20, 2011 at 9:36 am labpack

           Lord George Scott writes: “When Avon 1885 arrived as a puppy from Hurn Court (Earl of Malmesbury’s Estate, Christchurh, Dorset), he was handed over to a first-class man.”

           The year 1878 is attached to Avon’s imported dam, Lord Malmesbury’s Juno. No year mentioned on the sire, Lord Malmesbury’s Tramp.

           So, to me it looks very obvious that Buccleuch Avon was born on English soil, the breed’s mother country… ;)

           
           
           • on June 20, 2011 at 9:59 am retrieverman

             I have seen 1878 for her.

             
             
           • on June 20, 2011 at 10:02 am retrieverman

             I need to do a “Corrections” Page.

             I know of two errors I’ve posted for a very long time, and I need to put them on the blog in an easily accessible part of the blog.

             
             
         • on June 20, 2011 at 12:07 pm labpack

           “I know I remember reading somewhere that Avon retrieved something that fell off a ship on the way to England.”

           Maybe you mix the names… There was this dog “Brandy” which went overboard in a rough sea after the cap of one of the crew. The poor dog was so exhausted when picked up again and had to be revived with brandy. :)

           
           
5. on June 21, 2011 at 4:38 pm djinn34

   I hope somebody will find his name, because it’s a really nice dog. Maybe it’s during an obedience trial, they often wear collar.

   
   

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