This image of three brace of Grand bleu de Gascogne hounds comes from Gilbert Valet’s La chasse du chevreuil (“Deer hunting”).
These dogs are used to hunt deer in the traditional French way, which is very illegal in most of the United States. Running deer with hounds is a tradition in most of the South, but most states in the US have banned hunting deer with running hounds. Many states, like New York, allow leashed tracking dogs to track wounded deer, but the state doesn’t allow hunters to release every strong dog in the county into the woods in hopes of driving out a big ‘un.
The French still have a tradition of running hounds on deer, and they still celebrate their deer hounds– every bit as much as Southern white-tailed deer hunters do.
This particular breed is from the Midi region in the southwest of France. Gaston Febus, Comte du Foix, is said to have run packs of ticked hounds on deer, wolves, and boar in the fourteenth century. Traditonally, it is said to be the primary ancestor of the bluetick coonhound in the United States, and there is even a type of heavy bluetick-type hound that is called the “American blue Gascon hound.” It is the original heavy hound type that was once common in the bluetick coonhound, but because coonhound trials require a particularly fast hound, the functional conformation standard for that breed required a rangier, harder driving hound. However, there were splinter groups within blueticks that fought to preserve the original heavy type.
But here’s the thing: Although the old-type bluetick looks a lot like a Grand bleu de Gascogne, I have not seen any evidence that these dogs are of the same lineage.
One problem that I have with the theory is that the number of French settlers to the southern United States that came directly from France was very small. Most of the French Cajuns in Louisiana came to Louisiana via Acadia– in Maritime Canada. There are no indigenous blueticked hounds in Quebec or the French-speaking parts of the Maritimes. And when the French colonized these regions, these types of hound were not readily accessible to the majority of the populace. It is unlikely that any free French yeoman could easily procure hounds from a nobleman and take them to the New World.
Of course, the other theory is that the blueticks all derive from Grand bleu de Gascogne that were given to George Washington by the Marquis de Lafayette. This is possible, but the pack was only two and half brace– and the bluetick coonhound is far too common and not inbred enough to have derived from just that small number of hounds.
The center of this breed’s development has been Tennessee, not Virginia or Louisiana. That state has no real connection to widespread French colonization, though there were French trading posts in the state in the early eighteenth century. The bulk of the state’s population has been Scots-Irish in origin, and the French trading posts disappeared before Anglo-American settlers moved in. It is doubtful that packs of French hounds could live wild in the Tennessee wilderness until the Anglo settlers arrived in the latter part of the eighteenth century.
Because of they think another more parsimonious origin is that the dog is derived from a British dog.
And we do have a breed that fits the bill– the Southern hound of England.
This breed was very common in England south of the River Trent until the middle of the nineteenth century, when it disappeared. It partly was absorbed into modern scent hound breeds, but it was very common in England. It would have been widely imported to the American colonies, for it was such a common hunting dog that it would have been very common for well-to-do colonists to bring over large numbers of them.
What did a Southern hound look like? Well, here’s the best known image of one. It comes from The Dog in Health and Disease (1852) by Stonehenge (John Henry Walsh):
This image clearly shows a dog of the heavy scent hound type. It appears to have been between a foxhound and a bloodhound– two breeds that absorbed it.
This same description also fits how we understand certain more “bloodhoundy” coonhounds to be. In addition the American blue Gascon hound type, there are plenty of black and tan coonhounds that are of this type. Granted, most of these black and tans are actually AKC show stock and are not widely used as hunting dogs.
Very few sources talk about the color of the Southern hound, but I came across this gem in Henry Anderson Bryden’s Hare-hunting and Harriers (1903). In the text, Bryden discusses the origin of the “blue-mottle” (bluetick) coloration in the harrier and traces it to the Southern hound:
The colour of the Southern hound has been much debated, some asserting that it was originally black and tan, while others maintain that blue mottle was the true Southern hound colour. Personally, after a good deal of research, I am inclined to think that the old Southern hound ran in many colours, black and tan, red, the varied colouration which we now attribute to foxhounds, blue mottle, badger pie, hare pie, pure white, and even slate colour. In Devon and Sussex, which seem to have been always strongholds of the Southern hound blood, blue mottle is still a very noticeable colour in some of the best of the old harrier stock, which owe their ancestry largely to the Southern hound strain.
I think this description suggest that the heavy black and tans and blueticks/American blue Gascons (and perhaps the Redbones) are actually derived from this blood, not any French hounds or the bloodhound.
Some sources describe the primary color of the Southern hound as “blue mottle.” Henry William Herbert described the Southern hound in The Complete Manual for Young Sportsmen (1857), which included a description of the various scent hounds of Britain:
The Southern hound, though somewhat lighter framed and not much, has the same general characteristies [as a bloodhound], but is often, if not generally, blue mottled with patches of black and tan (pg. 226).
That description sounds very much like the old bluetick coonhound type or the American blue Gascon hound.
The large immigration to England’s North American colonies from the British Isles also coincides with the large-scale adoption of the foxhound as the primary pack hound in England. Prior to the adoption of foxhunting as the primary rural sport, the southern hounds were more common, but they were not nearly as good at chasing foxes as the lighter foxhounds were. With these heavier dogs being replaced by the foxhounds, it would have been easy for settlers to the American colonies to procure these dogs and establish strains of them there.
Judging from the descriptions of the dogs, perhaps the heavy blueticks/American blue Gascon hounds are the closest things to living Southern hounds.
This theory is much more likely than the Grand bleu de Gascogne theory that is so widely promoted.
There just weren’t that many French colonists and settlers, and those that did come were mostly of Canadian origin.
There is very little evidence of large packs of French hounds being brought to this country at any time.
And because blueticks are so common, it would have required large-scale importation– much more than the hounds that Washington received. There is no evidence that these French hounds were Grand bleu de Gascogne either, and there are plenty of other French hound breeds that these dogs could have been.
It’s just a very murky story. The evidence just isn’t there, and there is another competing hypothesis that has not been considered more carefully.
In the end it, it may be that the French origin of the blueticks may be as fanciful as the Russian origin for the golden retriever.
Intresting. Hadn’t have a glue – er, clue about that all.
The Coons are typically so American.
There’s a Grand Bleu living near me. Now-a-days he’s a very good boy and lives with a bracco bitch (look nice together). God he’s tall. And I’ve heard him barking, WOW – sounds like a basso trumpet.
BTW, here’s the black & tan English Southern Hound (1831):
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1831-ANTIQUE-SOUTHERN-BRITISH-HOUND-DOG-ANIMAL-PRINT-NR-/380289967867?pt=Art_Prints&hash=item588b0c66fb
Around here, the hunters run deer with “deer beagles” — which are typically large beagle/small hound crosses–look like big beagles or small foxhounds. And when hunting season ends, all too many of them end up dead on the side of the road as they either get lost during hunts or get set “free” so they don’t have to be fed all winter.
In West Virginia, it is illegal to hunt deer with dogs, but we have always had a very strong beagle culture.
For several years, deer hunters from Virginia would come up and buy any beagle that couldn’t be broken of running deer. They’d run them for a season and then either shoot them or abandon them.
That’s actually an amazing cultural difference between the two states. Even if running deer with dogs were legal in West Virginia, the majority of hunters would be opposed to it. In Virginia, it’s socially acceptable. In North Carolina, too, and almost every state of the former Confederacy.
Why do people object that? Is it because during the hunting season deers and dogs keep running around, hitting the cars, then suffer and die?
The way people run deer is differently than how the dogs in Finland bay ungulates.
They literally run them down to the point where the deer would collapse.
Oh well, I see.
Deers run in panic and people think they may harm their cars.
In Western Virginia, where I grew up (Roanoke/Bath County), it is considered very unsporting to hunt deer with dogs (as well as being illegal). I think because the hounds are seen as running the deer until they tire and it takes lying in wait, stalking, and planning the hunt out of the equation.
I moved west of the Blue Ridge (Charlottesville area) and it’s very common and legal. In some areas of the state (especially further east), hunters keep packs of deer beagles on cheap lots of land, they drive over once a week, dump in a few bags of Ol’ Roy, and go home. Although for every pack like that, I’m sure there’s more that are well cared for.
I wonder if it has to do with mountain hunting versus flatland hunting–it’s easier to manipulate/predict the movement of the deer if you can use the terrain to your advantage?
In all the northern states, it’s illegal. In West Virginia, the no dog hunting rule is so strong that it is legal to shoot any dog seen chasing a deer at any time.
err, east of the Blue Ridge, not west!
HOW WOULD I GO ABOUT FINDING A GRAND BLEU DE CASCOGNE?
I have no idea where you can get an actual French Grand Bleu de Gascogne in the United States.
In South Africa, they have been imported to hunt leopards, but I have no idea if anyone is breeding them here to hunt cougars or bears.
Blue Sage Kennels. I brought mine back from France. Amazing dog – and I don’t hunt. The nose is always working.
aI am most interested in these dogs and would love to know where to locate one. IF YOU HAVE PHONE NUMBERS, EMAIL ADDRESSES OR SNAIL MAIL INFO i WOULD BE MOST GRATE .
I think that anyone who uses dogs for one hunting season then abandons or shoots them deserves to be shot. I have a Bluetick and that dog is my best friend.
I live in Georgia, and have hunted deer with dogs in South Carolina and Georgia for most of my life. I enjoy the hunt and have nothing against the sport. However, as mentioned previously many dogs are not cared for properly. A lot of dogs do get abandoned and shot. This I have a huge problem with. I would like to see laws put in place against confining dogs in such adverse conditions as they are. Dogs are locked in pens for the majority of the year living in their own waste, fed sparingly and seldom have clean water. They also receive little to no vet care. I realize they are “working” dogs, but any living animal deserves better.
Duane Miller
Port Allegany,PA.
I am a hunter in the middle but when it comes to them steeling our dogs of the north just to do that pisses me off. And that happens up here. I had two stole and never found.them. Im sure that is what was done. Stole taken down there and pened untill they were used to hunt deer. Both my dogs we,re papered dogs and carred out of the pens. Now I shoot first and ask ? later. I love hunting with dogs and agree. They should be taken care of like children. Not fenced and forgotten about till the hunt. Mine were coonhounds. And loved them both as much as my two boys. If they stopped hunting deer with dogs i think we would see alot less dog steeling up in these parts.
I hate to burst your bubble but the Gascogne hounds were in atlantic Canada. They were part of the package within the garrison of Fort Louisburg Cape Bretton in the 1750’s when the French were at war with England.Used to hunt small and large game. Halifax was the British influence within this very historic province. There are also pictures painted with the acadians boarding ships out of Grand Pre, Land of Evangeline NS. Seen the paintings myself in the museum.
That’s nice, but my guess is there weren’t more than a dozen or so dogs at Louisbourg.
Not enough to found this population.
You also have provided no evidence that the Acadian brought this breed to Louisiana. We do know that they brought dogs to Louisiana but they became heavily interbred with Spanish and Native dogs.
I don’t think that it is at all parsimonious to assume that this breed is an ancestor of the blueticks. Blueticks are an Appalachian coonhound, not a Cajun one. There just were never that many French people with strong attachments to France living in the area.
Yes, well, maybe — I get your point. But I don’t see that it helps very much. After all, where did the English Southern hounds come from, if not the Bleu de Gascogne and other French breeds? Aren’t all the English scent hounds except possibly the beagle derived from the French? The resemblance to the old style American bluetick coonhound is detailed and very strong, even in old pictures, and I would peg the source via England as just one stop along the route. The facial markings are almost stereotypically identical across both breeds (and the derived bassets).
To your original point, some American hounds are certainly German in origin (c.f., the Plott hound) and we have actual pedigrees in some cases (see The American Foxhound, Alexander Mackay-Smith). No one thinks the German hounds came over in very great quantity, but the Plott hound is a stable, well attested breed in the US. Do you think more Plotts came over than Gascon Blues? If not, why would one succeed where the other is ruled not possible.
BTW, what do you know about the mysterious Talbot hounds? Though the relationship to the Norman family is unknown, royalty were already making jokes about the family, viz, “Talbot, my faithful dog”, not too long after the Conquest. It may also be part of the English Southern hound, or something else altogether. Claims of St. Hubert’s hound derivations (like everyone else).
The reason why I think more German dogs came over is that there were more German immigrants than French. In fact, more Americans living today trace their ancestry to Germany than to England. And even in the areas the French colonized, they didn’t send over a large sector of their society. Ethnic Germans came over from just about every stratum in society. Aldo Leopold’s family came from middle ranking nobility. Mine were hop growers. I think that it’s not just the Plotts that have German ancestry. There are also various curs and even larger feists that remind me of the rougher stock of pinscher, like the Austrian pinscher. Some Australians shepherds and some English shepherd strains show a stronger affinity with the rougher strain of German sheepdog than with collies.
I think it’s very likely that just about all English scent hounds are derived from the French dogs, even if they came over before there was even a France.
Old Southerns were deer hunting specialists, and the rise of foxhunting in England coincides with widespread colonization. The Old Southerns no longer had any use in Hanoverian deer parks and were being cast off to Virginia, Maryland, and Carolina planters, who found deer chasing a wonderful past-time, one that could be a replacement for fox hunting. (I’ve just found some interesting genetic evidence that the introductions of the red fox that happened in the seventeenth and eighteenth century were not very successful. All modern red foxes in the East and South have mtDNA that is entirely of North American origin.)
I wonder if the Talbot may have been derived from the Alaunt, the large white dog that is said to be the ancestor of the mastiffs and bulldogs.
I am desperately searching for a breeder in the US for the Grand Blue De Gascogne and am coming up empty handed. Do you have any contact info for a US breeder.
Sincerely,
Gabriela Yariv (310) 429-0117
Contact the owner of Blue Sage Kennels in TN. http://bluesagekennels.com/
Agree with you about the French origin of Uk hounds – France is THE country for hounds.
The Grand Bleu is one of my favourites. My neighbour used to have two, which worked with his bloodhounds, although of course Grand Bleu do not have the nose. He had GB/Bloodhound crosses too, very nice hounds indeed.
I used to love the sound of a Bloodhound pack – and then you would hear the sharp bell of the Grand Bleu above it.
Also I agree about the unsporting nature of hunting deer with hounds. It only happened in the South of England, and the emphasis was not on killing a deer, but on running it to exhaustion, which seemed really cruel to someone used to the Scottish tradition of stalking and shooting.
Elizabeth