Canis lupus hominis

Posted in golden retriever | 21 Comments

21 Responses

1. on July 3, 2011 at 1:40 pm Dave

   The retriever family have potential to be carriers of the same dwarfism gene as Basset Hounds. Although it manifests differently in affected dogs, as it doesn’t affect the leg lengths rather causes them to become bow-legged.

   
   
   • on July 3, 2011 at 1:57 pm retrieverman

     I think this is a side effect of something else.

     In golden retrievers, there is a desire to breed for a lot of bone. One way to breed for bone is to breed for a larger dog but with shorter legs. I’ve seen several goldens that were derived from breeding heavily-bone dogs with short legs to normal dogs, and some of the normal pups from such breedings have been massive. Normally proportioned but huge.

     
     
     • on July 4, 2011 at 7:52 pm Willie westfall

       Sounds like you are talking about me.

       
       
       • on July 4, 2011 at 9:01 pm retrieverman

         Terriers are different.

         Smaller dogs and aren’t supposed to swim.

         Anyway, you got longer lags than most dachshunds and can run just fine!

         
         
2. on July 3, 2011 at 1:41 pm Dave

   Er… “the retriever family has”.

   
   
   • on July 3, 2011 at 1:48 pm retrieverman

     In Britain, you’d be grammatically correct, so I’ll keep it.

     
     
3. on July 3, 2011 at 2:34 pm Kim

   What is the value of a lot of bone? Is it looks or does it help in the field?

   I am guessing that this dog is not going to have the endurance of a dog of the same size with normal legs, because it will have to work harder to haul its massive chest around on such short front legs.

   It strikes me that the photo is kind of neat because the feathers almost touch the ground — is that it? The chest looks very massive to me — especially if the dog is not going to swim a lot. If it is purely a water dog, it might be ok because the deep chest will give it some buoyancy.

   
   
   • on July 3, 2011 at 2:56 pm retrieverman

     More bone is just a breed trait that looks nice in the show ring. Most working-type dogs and most of the early dogs that were shown were much more moderate than than many of the show dogs.

     The heavily-boned and feathered dogs don’t have as good a swimming posture. More of them sinks into the water. Swimming posture is almost never discussed, but a dog with more leg and less feather can swim with its neck and shoulders out of the water and parallel to the surface, allowing to dog to see and smell better as it swims.

     But this is rarely discussed anywhere.

     
     
     • on July 3, 2011 at 7:03 pm Jess

       Breeding for more bone also produces dogs that look ‘mature’ at a younger age. They don’t go through an extended spindly adolescent phase. In some breeds this seems to matter, in some it does not. I see Afghans that are under two years old finishing fairly frequently; my male dogs are not even done growing at that age. They may continue to fill out until they are three or even a little older.

       
       
       • on July 3, 2011 at 7:09 pm retrieverman

         My first dog went through a period where she looked like some species of red antelope.

         Miley went through a similar phase but it was less dramatic.

         Miley is 22.5 inches at the shoulder and 73 pounds; Goldie [quite imaginative, eh?] was 23 inches at the shoulder and varied between 55-60 pounds her entire life.

         .

         
         
         • on July 3, 2011 at 7:27 pm Jess

           Heavily boned dogs that look mature early typically finish out much too heavy, very overdone.

           You used a semi-colon.

           
           
         • on July 4, 2011 at 1:24 pm Suhail

           My 4-1/2 months old Kuvasz boy looks like a white antelope these days :-)

           Btw, he loves travelling on our Saloon car rather than the off-roader and especially likes taking the lift up to the 9th story to meet a couple in their flat No. 99 (wink wink)

           
           
4. on July 3, 2011 at 3:04 pm HTTrainer

   see GR News March-April 2011 page 84.
   “Short legs directly affect the dog’s ability to perform his function.”

   
   
5. on July 3, 2011 at 6:18 pm sue

   This trait is creeping into a lot of show breeds. Cavaliers are starting to look like longhaired dachshunds.
   I’d thought the breeders where just confusing the optical illusion of short bowed legs with heavy bone , but maybe your right they are breeding a large dog but keeping the height down with short legs

   
   
6. on July 3, 2011 at 6:20 pm Steph

   Oh, that’s just silly. Reminds me of those “pigador” show Labs. Just add fluff.

   

   
   
7. on July 4, 2011 at 6:50 am labpack

   Yes, the present short legged show goldens, and labs too are just sad caricatures of the breed!

   An unnamed show judge has a brilliant explanation “the dogs won’t get so easily tangled with water vegetation”… :D

   
   
   • on July 4, 2011 at 9:39 am HTTrainer

     In the breed standard: Dogs should be 23-24 inches in height and weigh 65-75-pounds; bitches should be 21.5-22.5 inches and 55-65 and with a magic length to height ratio of 12:11. I’ve seen dogs examined for height, but never weight. The idea of shorter legs is pitiful, but as this is a game of politics and not performance we shall probably see other aberrations to the standard as well.

     
     
     • on July 4, 2011 at 12:24 pm HTTrainer

       Add’l thought, since many “show people” cannot produce Goldens with a level topline this is probably compensating for faults.
       . . . from the breed standard: “Back line — strong and level from withers to slightly sloping croup, whether standing or moving. Sloping back line, roach or sway back, flat or steep croup to be faulted.”
       This may seem like an “improvement” but is this whimsey or just plain bad judgment? No matter, I do not think that shortening the legs helps any breed.

       
       
8. on July 4, 2011 at 1:00 pm CM

   Your particular example shown has way too much coat as well. The British talk about air under the dog – if it has no air under it, the dog quickly becomes overheated, especially when working in the high, harsh vegitation in Scotland. Long and Low is the drag of the breed but it is common fault in many breeds.

   
   
9. on July 5, 2011 at 10:19 am Peggy Richter

   I’ve heard this called “low station”. The intent is to get a dog that can do the required “conformation show trot” without having the kind of angulation that one sees in the worst GSDs. If the legs are short, you get the trot without having to have a handler that doubles as a track star and without the angulation. The 3/4 leg was something Leon Whitney DVM discussed long before the genetics for the leg length were discovered. I don’t “do” retrievers so I don’t know about the impact on swimming abilty, but this sort of build certainly has negative impact on the speed and agility of a dog — but of course that isn’t something the conformation ring evaluates. It does enable the breeder to have a “trotting” dog without the angulation and hip issues that other choices entail, which I suppose makes it a better choice than some they could have made. It’s sad when a breed is deformed so much that it can’t perform it’s intended function.
   Peggy Richter.

   
   
10. on July 5, 2011 at 1:42 pm M.R.S.

    It has already been mentioned, that this trend to shorter legs and a shift in overall proportions is common to many breeds. As Peggy Richter said, it does enable the dog to more easily trot without interference (and look as if moving quickly whille not really gaining speed). The GRCA Judges’ Education Committee does address this matter of proportions, weight, etc at seminars given for show judges, but unfortunately the lesson seems not to “take” on many who judge. I suspect that many of those judging simply don’t have the visual sense to perceive incorrect proportions…and some don’t have the guts to ignore “what’s winning” even if it is incorrect.

    I might note also that the dog pictured is not only a bit short on leg, but that this is exacerbated by the ribcage being slung low between the forelimb assemblies, with the bottom of the chest appearing well below the elbow point. Not appropriate for this breed..

    
    

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