This painting “La Chasse au Loup” by Jean-Baptiste Oudry (1746).
Two of the dogs that are attacking this wolf are heavy greyhound-types– exactly the same type of dog that was used to hunt wolves in Great Britain and Ireland.
The other two are eighteenth century Great Pyrenees dogs.
I’ve always thought it was interesting that many nineteenth century texts mention a dog very similar to a Great Pyrenees but call it a “Pyrenean wolfhound.”
Although the dogs certainly were useful in protecting flocks from wolves, I think they probably were also used to hunt wolves on occasion.
These dogs were the guard dogs of the shepherds of the Pyrenees, but they moved up in French society in the eighteenth century. It was not unusual for wealthy individuals to keep these dogs, and the show dog fancy adopted this breed very early on.
With the exception of the village type dogs that have adopted this function, the Great Pyrenees is probably the most common livestock guardian breed in the world.
But again, livestock guardian dogs are supposed to be genetically incapable of predatory behavior.
“…..livestock guardian dogs are supposed to be genetically incapable of predatory behavior.”
Strictly speaking, that is not true of course.
The Retriever is supposed not to kill living pray. Still we know he does it – or he’d like to do so in many occasions.
Maybe one dog alone won’t – but if there’s a pack, they’ll find their instict in a second.
Well, give a breed that would be like a buddhist. I bet you can’t.
The breeds that are genetically incapable are those physically deformed breeds, like the pug, bulldog, chow and so on.
They like to hunt and catch, but they are far too slow.
It is a marvellous painting of Oudry. Somehow the dogs remind me of the Turkish Kangal. I think the time has gone and the Pyrr is not that furious anymore he used to be, before his showtime.
The fact that you have to train some retrievers and other gun dogs not to kill prey is a big problem with Coppinger. The golden mentioned in the post could retrieve to hand naturally but she still could kill rabbits.
BTW,one of those texts by Stonehenge calls the Sarplaninac or Illyrian shepherd an “Albanian wolfhound.”
I haven’t been able to find anyplace in Coppinger’s book that says that retrievers cannot kill prey. He does indicate that the kill behavior is much less strong (due to selection against “hard mouth”), but it is not omitted. Sorry, don’t have the book at hand to give page numbers. And certainly I know of any number of Goldens who have dispatched varmints such as raccoons, opossums, groundhogs, rats, etc. –nearly always animals that have acted aggressively. The same dogs, and others, have also retrieved feathered game very gently. And playing-dead possums, baby rabbits, newly-hatched chicks, some compliant kittens, goldfish, parakeets, and more.
Yes. He does say this.
He mentions a livestock guardian dog that won’t eat a dead sheep, because it has had its dissect motor pattern bred out of it.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Fkg7C9mAS2wC&lpg=PA199&ots=yQ-QRSe8Jq&dq=kill%20bite%20coppinger&pg=PA208#v=onepage&q&f=false
That may be…but that is just one incident, just one dog (and a dog that is not a retriever, which is what I was discussing) , and he is talking here about the “dissect” behavior…not the “kill” behavior. It might also be possible that the LGD did neither kill nor dissect the sheep, because it had been “imprinted” on sheep. There is always a danger in taking a single example and applying it to all members of a class.
That’s actually exactly what is going on.
But Coppinger says that the dog has no dissect motor pattern. The whole chapter starts with a discussion about how predatory mammals have motor patterns that they exhibit when hunting. He gives the example of a cougar who inherits a motor pattern that involves caching what it kills, and then goes onto show how these different breeds have different inherited motor patterns and how they are stuck in them.
A cougar or any cat can’t learn to kill like a dog does, and a border collie can’t learn to kill sheep (even though they do it a lot.).
What he says is that retrievers lack a killing bite motor pattern so they can’t kill anything.
I was thinking of the chart at bottom of page 199; where (kill-dissect) is listed as present but as a fault. In the references you linked, Coppinger has simply omitted certain behaviors from the sequences, indicating that they are (invariably?) absent– which is, indeed, a bit of an over-reach.
If a dog has a fault, it is culled from the breeding population.
The chapter is on behavioral conformation, such that you can produce dogs that have faults, just as one can have faults in phenotype.
That’s the theory.
Unfortunately, it’s based upon the post-industrial revolution Anglo-Saxon model of specialist dogs.
And anyone can tell you that you often have to train pointers not to catch birds or train retrievers not to kill what they catch. These aren’t faulty dogs at all. They are often the best of the best, but they still have to be trained.
Mark Derr has a great critique of all of this in Dog’s Best Friend.
Interesting snippet! I think the LGDs not consuming the lamb may have something to do with the environment as well. It’s mentioned the dogs were kept in a pen. I know in the field Pyrs often consume the carcasses of dead sheep to avoid predators being drawn in close to the flock to scavenge.
In regards to Pyrs and wolf hunting excursions, I know in areas with low predator populations the Pyrs will tend to roam far and wide almost looking for a predator to warn off, so they almost expand territory and keep a wider radius.
I’ve owned both Irish Wolfhounds and Pyrs so I can see taking IW-type coursing dogs out on a hunt… Pyrs tends to use alot of nose in identifying threats so perhaps they tracked, IWs coursed, and both dispatched. I could particularly see this being done if wolves were a problem with flocks. Shepherds and townsfolk banding together to eradicate a nuisance type of situation.
It’s a beautiful painting though, and with my two favorite breeds! I hope I’m lucky enough to one day own a replication. I’ve told my husband this would be my ultimate gift so hopefully he can manage to hunt one down for me!
We have a terrier — imported from Charleville, Co Cork, Ireland, and from a line of Traveller dogs, who is fast fast fast after a lure, and is a champ in fetching balls from Lake Ontario. In fact, she has been known to save a ball for a weekend retriever (as in the owner only walks the dog on weekends and doesn’t really train the dog — the lucky ones go with the dog walker during the week). I pity the weekend retrievers because so many of them are overweight, or have outside heads, or are dumb as posts and can’t follow the ball when it is thrown.
Our terrier loves to swim, but doesn’t have an undercoat, so she couldn’t be a dual purpose dog. Our lab/bouvier is faster in the water, but not by much.
However, her daughter, from a dog whose father came from a different line of Traveller terriers in Co Roscommon, Ireland, and whose mother is a North American JRT of dubious heritage, has both a fabulous undercoat and webbed feet.
There are a number of other dogs from the Cork line with luxuriant undercoats, so there must be some dual purpose dogs in this line — they are mostly around 15-18 pounds, shorties, but longer than the North American JRTs.
Coppinger has some good ideas, but he’s just plain wrong about multi-purpose dogs!
Kim! Show us a foto of Your Lab x Bouvier, please! Must look like a Newfoundland from the 1800s or sthing!
http://www.dreamofnorway.com/Remy.htm
Here’s a photo of a Lab/Bouvier in Norway.
“There are a number of other dogs from the Cork line with luxuriant undercoats, so there must be some dual purpose dogs in this line -”
Kim, please, curious to know as to what else breed spesific issues, except a double coat, is required to define a dual purpose terrier?
These terriers do many of the typical terrier behaviours like chasing small prey, digging, and so on but they are also very good retrievers on both land and water, and they show some herding behaviors as well. The younger bitch caught and killed a mouse on her first walk in Canada (in a ravine).
My partner had their DNA tested, and they both came up with nothing in the first and second degree ancestors, but sheltie and schnauzer in the third degree. I don’t put much faith in it, though because they also had doberman & weimeraner. They weigh between 15-18 pounds, and it is difficult for me to believe this is at all accurate. They have liver noses, which I’m guessing is responsible for some of the breed IDs. They are a lot calmer than North American JRTs.
The Kerry Blue is well-known to be a good retriever:
https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/kerry-blue-terrier-as-a-pheasant-retriever-and-irelands-national-dog/
The Irish also didn’t specialize their terriers. They are more utilitarian– like the feists of the United States.
LGDs are also too slow. Also, their hunting wills are not so high. So, it IS in the genetics amongst them too. But instead, they are strongly territorialist and very dominating in their way. So, if some strange canis or even human threads the area (& their flock), they turn into furious fighters.
I think the painting is about that. First the greyhounds ran up the wolf, then the slower dogs arrived to make the final end.
Whatever Coppringer said, socialization (with the flock, “pack”) is the key also here. Basically it’s a natural process and so works amongst all the canines.
I agree with Borge to a great extent. LGDs are surely capable of killing, but since their prey drive is low, that would be an aggression of the last resort.
My experience with LGDs is that they are lazy couch potatoes of the free range dog world. They are territorialists, but with a intruder, their first line of defense is to show their size with a warning bark. The second line of defense is their booming nerve shattering barks accompanied by full attack posturing. If the intruder does not take heed, the attack comes with a full force.
Also, anecdotal evidence from studies in the USA and Canada suggests that some LGD breeds like Kuvasz, Maremmas, Akbash and even Anatolians are not slow dogs. Kuvaszok in north central Ontario (Bruce and Grey counties) farms are routinely called out by coyotes, which are given a chase and engaged. Reports on LGDs on BC treecuts /silvicultured areas show that Great Pyrs are a good deterrence against bears, whereas Kuvaszok, Maremmas and Akbash are good deterrence against wolves.
Btw, as an LGD, Great Pyrs are still the most popular breed in the US and Canada, followed by Anatolians, Akbash and Maremmas. A Great Pyr as an LGD is a formidable force when kept at least as a pair of two. These are not to be confused by the soft variety being produced and encouraged by breeders for keeping as pets and companions.
LGDs are slow runners – they can’t be used in a hunt, for a coyote or wolf would easily run away. Physically they are not runners, they are like goal keepers – fast to react if an attack occusrs.
The Irish used to use a mastiff to hunt wolves– in addition to their large sight hound.
And we have dogs like dogos argentinos and catch pit bulls that are used to catch pigs and peccaries. They are relatively slow Molossoid dogs.
As I noted earlier, the sight hound was more useful in a wolf hunt, because it could catch the wolf on the run before it could stop and fight.
https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2011/01/13/eighteenth-century-depiction-of-a-wolf-hunt/
Scent hounds are among the least useful dogs in wolf hunting– their ears are too easily grabbed.
It is not very long ago that wolves killed a number of dogs in a farm in Montana. All of them seem to be scent hunting dogs.
Hounds get killed by wolves all the time in the Rockies and in the Great Lakes States.
Pointers, retrievers and scenthounds get mauled all the time by wolves in British Columbia. They don’t bother the other breeds as much though.
That’s because retrievers and scent hounds are too friendly with other dogs!
And their friendliness with other dogs could be the reason why spiked collars cannot be put on them for their use can cause injuries at the time of showing affection and during socialization. Spiked collars are not supposed to be a fashion statement. They had a practical use for LGDs. Because of these collars, wolves can neither go for their necks nor for their ears. However, cropped ears can also serve the purpose to some extent, but unfortunately, for Kangals and Central Asian Ovcharkas, ears are cropped not for protection against wolves, but for ugly practice of dog fighting. Cropped ears fail when one or two wolves go for the neck and the remaining for the flanks and stretch the dog so that it suffocates. That is the way how wolves kill coyotes, bear cubs and domestic dogs.
Agreed. In addition, LGDs have to be trained adequately in wolf territory, for example, on never to leave the ranch / farm and the company of other dogs after being called out by a wolf, and specially on how to behave towards wolf dens in the area.
LGDs are quite capable of predatory behavior. Many not only hunt for themselves but are also used a big game hunters for wolves, boar, & bears. It’s just a matter of teaching them what to guard & what they may hunt, or which dogs are the family pets vs the stray or loose dogs with which they are expected to be aggressive. This is no different than dogs with are family protection dogs. Just because they are loving & gentle with their families doesn’t mean many guardian breeds aren’t suspicious & aggressive with none family/friends. My Central Asian Shepherds are dual-purpose livestock guardians & personal protection dogs & while I don’t specifically use them for hunting, they hunt & kill any animals which are not part of the farm family all the time.
I would not say LGDs are slow nor are they lazy. They don’t have the speed of a sighthound (I also have Borzoi & Azawakh) of course, but the only creature faster than a sighthound is a cheetah, so that isn’t saying much. My Central Asians can easily run 35 miles per hour & my Anatolian will be even faster when she’s grown (many Anatolians are built much like heavy sighthounds). LGDs aren’t particular *busy* dogs, unlike a hunting or herding dog, because their job is to always be on standby & they have to be explosive & fresh for a fight if it occurs. So no, they aren’t always running around looking for stuff to do. Some breeds are more active than others, the CAS (which are perimeter guardians) are more active than the ASDs, which are more active than the Great Pyrs (which tend to stay the closest to the stock). Also remember predators are primarily active at night, when game animals are at a disadvantage, so often the piles of fur lying around doing nothing you see on a farm that uses LGDs are really hard working guardian dogs that have been up all night patrolling & possibly fighting.
LGDs have a great deal of stamina. My dual-purpose CAS accompany me on backpacking trips where they carry about 30 pounds apiece & travel many miles in mountainous terrain while also remaining on guard for wild carnivores & crazy hillbillies, lol. The Transhumance weeded out dogs that lacked the stamina to keep up with the caravan or that were too tired after a long day of traveling to do their job.