A black Irish setter could be the setter in this setter-retriever cross (early wavy-coat).
In Colonel J.K. Milner’s The Irish Setter: Its History & Training (1924), the author describes black and sable Irish setters, as well as the more well-known solid red and red and white dogs.
What I find interesting is a statement that appears at page 46:
The late Mr. Cecil Moore told me he had some excellent black Irish setters. The black setters are the result crossing with black dogs…Some black retrievers in Ireland are said to be descended from red setters.
My guess is the black dogs the author is writing about are solid black Welsh setters and maybe black collies and black and tan dogs that eventually became the Gordon setter breed.
We do know that the wavy-coated landrace of retriever had a lot of setter in it. It also had St. John’s water dog, collie, and a little water spaniel in it.
Black dogs, of course, are the dominant color to the red or yellow dogs, so if a black Irish setter had been bred into the retriever lines, it could have passed on the recessive color into the retriever bloodlines. Dogs that probably descend from black Irish setters carrying the red color are “Breeze” and, of course, “Nous.”
Now, I do not discount that there could be other sources for this color, including cream colored Featherstone castle setters, true red collie dogs (not sables or livers), and, of course, various water spaniels and water dogs, including the Tweed water dog.
However, I think that looking at the setters tells a lot about how this red to yellow color was introduced into retrievers.
Irish (Red) Setters are very interesting in that they are genetically black dogs – with a highly recessive modifier loci on the colour gene that expresses the colour black as the rich Irish Setter red. The recessive modifier is always lost when Irish are put to others breeds (except the Irish Red and White Setter) and thus by Medelian Laws, the bulk of the resulting litter are born solid black dogs! It is for this reason that the Irish Setter breed Standard stipluates that no black hairs should be found on an Irish Setter.
Golden retrievers are exactly the same color– except those that are brown skinned.
Goldens and Irish setters are e/e, which is an interesting color in itself because it includes dogs we think of as white, like West Highland white terriers and Samoyeds. Having the e/e genotype prevents the dogs from producing black or liver coloration. Most goldens and, as far as I know, all Irish setters are BB, which is a genetically black color. But because they are e/e’s, they can’t produce the black color. The few goldens that are bb, are actually liver dogs with e/e. In retrievers, we call this “brown skinned” yellow. In Goldens, it’s a very undesired color. In Labradors, it’s accepted. In Duck-tollers and Chesapeakes, it’s the preferred color.
I’ve seen golden/ blue belton Llewellin setter crosses that were solid black and could be mistaken for flat-coats. The same with golden/Border collie crosses and even golden/sable rough collie crosses. Lots of long-haired supposed Labrador crosses are actually golden retriever crosses that are black.
Now, goldens have some modifiers that make their coats lighter in color than the Irish setters. However, historically, there were goldens that were as dark as Irish setters are today. That’s because golden retrievers have a lot of Irish setter in them. Indeed, a lot of the early golden retriever imports to the US were mistaken for Irish setters that had been trained to retrieve from the water. The first dual champion golden retriever Dual Ch. Balcombe Boy was so dark in color that he was a mahogany.
This is a pure golden retrieve from the US: http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/mahogany-golden-ii.jpg
This coloration is not accepted in the FCI or KC standard for goldens, but it is common in field-line dogs in North America.
I just dropped in here by chance, because for the longest time I’ve been trying to find out exactly what’s up with my dog! I have a completely black Irish Setter… when people read this they usually jump to the conclusion that he is a Gordon Setter, but as I’ve said, he is solid black, absolutely no tan. If you look at him in heavy sunlight at a certain angle, his hair looks somewhat wine colored, but again, very dark, nowhere near the normal reddish brown of an Irish Setter (I used to own one). Any ideas? Any information will be much appreciated! Thanks!
yes!! i reckon i got one of those!..he came to me as a rescue from county cork
more of a working dog rather than show but lovely with it
pat stagg………….
We had a black setter when I was young. My mother loved setters. She always said that many years ago they would distroy the black puppies at birth so that they would not ruin the bloodline.
When we bred the black setter (female) with our red male, there were a few red, a few black and three mahogoney colored puppies. The AKA would not acknowledge the black setters into the breed so our female could not be registered nor could any of the ten puppies.
It’s sad because they are beautiful and very loyal as are all setters. My last dog that I owned was a black setter and that was many years ago. I would love to find a female black setter again.
URGENT!!If you are still looking for a Black Irish setter, please look at this website asap. Im not sure where you live but there is one that has 1 day to live. She is at Morgan County Animal Control in Jacksonville, IL please call the rescue lady and she would love to get her adopted before she is euthanized.
The breeder of this setter gave her to an animal shelter, where from dedicated dog trainers saved and trained her. This one-year-old dog now is inclined to the skill of truffle hunting.
Anyone who is interested, please contact: gallozol@gmail.com
Availability: Gyula, Hungary
Black Irish setter to be euthanized on 4-26-11 …please call Lisa at the Morgan County Animal Control in Jacksonville, IL at 217-245-4015 (1/2 hour west of Springfield, IL ) hours 8:30-4:30 M-F, closed 12-1. or call Flo at 217-589-4269.
http://springfieldil.craigslist.org/pet/2336347461.html
click link to see her picture. Her name is Sophia.
hi i have a cross irish setter and we bred her with a full breed irish setter and one of her litter is black with a little white marking on her chest
I’ve just lost my dog and would replace her if I can find one. She matches the puppy you describe- black with the little white mark on her chest. Do you still have yours?
bob sorry i only just seen your comment i still have her she is six months old i am in ireland
I have owned Gordon Setters and there is a very obvious difference in the overall shape and size of the dogs when compared with Irish Setters. I have also owned a black setter which was the result of a mis match between an Irish Setter dog and an English Setter bitch. There were four completely black dog pups that just looked like black irish Setters and four golden bitch pups that looked exactly what you would expect a golden English setter to look like. The only bitch pup to be run on ended up like the palest Golden Retriever when mature. I have been told of totally black pure bred English Setters but before this article never heard black Irish setters even mentioned.
i recently rescued a beautiful pure black dog that sounds just like a black irish setter. he is much taller than a retirever although has some similarities, but definitely has the coat, look and temperment of a setter. But is as tall as a gordon setter. could this possibly be a black Irish setter? He is truely beautiful , he looks like a show dog.
Possibly or maybe a flat-coated retriever…