Regular readers of this blog know I am proud of my German ancestry but not in the Volkisch or Nazi way.
I also love the German system of dog breeding. Each breeds has its own wardens that ensure quality. Dogs can only be bred when they are physically and temperamentally sound, and no more six puppies per litter can be registered. All of those reduce overbreeding.
That’s why German dog breeds that are actually bred in Germany are usually of good quality.
Among these breeds is the Large Münsterländer. It is not the larger version of the Small Münsterländer, which is derived from the various Dutch HPR’s. The Large Münsterländer is a dog derived from German longhairs (Langhaar) that were of the faulty black or black and white color.
Why would I want one of these dogs? Well, most of them have very good working instincts, high intelligence, good health, and good temperaments. They do have retrieving instincts, and they also are useful as index dogs.
Here’s a video of one retrieving:
From fallowfen.
These dogs are basically where the golden retriever was in 1970. They are still useful to humanity, and they have lovely natures.
I would love to own a German breed that still has a gundog’s temperament, something a bit more like the retrievers I love than the Weimaraner, the Drahthaar, or the Kurzhaar, which okay for some people but not for me.
So if the golden goes to hell, I’m going to become a Large Münsterländer man. That will make for an interesting blog title, don’t you think? (And yes, I’m going to spell it with umlauts.)
Looks like a fun dog. If you want one, get one–but don’t wait for the working golden retriever to disappear, because I see them all the time.
Weimaraners are magnificent creatures. I could never stand to live with one.
I’m not afraid of them disappearing, I’m afraid that they will have so many genetic problems that they won’t be worth having. The field lines are losing a lot of genetic diversity.
Have you ever read this book?: http://www.amazon.com/Upland-Passage-Field-Dogs-Education/dp/1592282415
I have the original printing, and I’ve read it so many times that it’s entirely worn out. This is a Vermont nature and dog writer who can take really good photographs.
The author recounts the stories of all of his bird dogs. He loves Labs, of course, which he uses as flushing dogs for ruffed grouse and woodcock (exactly the same species of gamebird that are shot in West Viginia. Bobwhites and pheasants are rare.) One of his Labs was used with a German shorthair, so he would hunt the two at once, casting the flushing Lab to the left and the casting the pointing Kurzhaar to the right. That meant that he could cover both sides of a logging road at once. Of course, that would mean that you really would have to be on your toes to do it right!
Weimaraners are interesting. They didn’t start out as bird dogs. They were bear and boar hounds that were bred into an HPR breed. That’s why their temperament is a little different from what we usually expect. They are related to the Plott hound (which is an American hound from German lines– we call them “Bear dogs” in West Virginia because that’s what they are used for) and the other German HPR’s.
I’ve always admired Large Munsterlanders, probably because they look similar to Flat-coats (and no, that is not a suggestion for an intelligent FCR outcross). I’ve only once met a Munsterlander in person and was totally mesmerized. His owner said they can be a little standoffish and aloof, and require lots of early socialization. He also said most enjoy water and retrieving enough to serve as waterfowl dogs. The American Munsterlander breeders rely a lot on NAVHDA tests to certify their working ability. I once asked NAVHDA if I could run my Flatties in their tests but they said ‘no.’ Perhaps they could be solid black and brown Munsterlanders for a day ;-).
I wasn’t suggesting that anyone outcross that dog with the flat-coat.
Both of these dogs are derived from the large spaniel landrace, at least in part. That’s the only reason for the similarity. I did read somewhere, although I can’t find the source, that some wavy or flat-coated retriever was crossed into the Large Muensterlaender.
There’s something in the face that’s really familiar, but I can’t decide if it’s another breed of dog… or someone I know!!!
“Upland Passage” is a book I know I’ve seen on someone’s shelf, but I’ve never read it. When I figure out where I’ve seen it, I’ll have to borrow it.
My dad hunts grouse in the woods of northern WI with his springer–or rather, he takes his springer for a walk in the woods and brings his gun. You know, I can’t recall him ever shooting one… come to think of it, does ANYONE ever shoot one???
I actually think they look more similar to FCRs than any other purebred I’ve seen, save for a couple of goldens . . . at least the one I saw in person did. His head, body proportions, and coat were more FCR-like than Setter-like to me. And sorry, didn’t mean to imply you were suggesting them as an outcross . . . just didn’t want my own comparison to be misread as suggestive of that.
Most goldens used to have flat-coat bodies and proportions. It’s just been that they’ve been bred to a different standard for so long that they’ve changed so dramatically. A lot of the old-type Labs have flat-coat conformation, too; in fact, the modern trial Lab was able to replace the Flat-coat as the top trial dog because it was heavily outcrossed to the top trial flat-coats of its day. These three breeds used to have the same basic conformation, but Labs and goldens have diverged from that form. The flat-coat has never split into a show or working variety in the way goldens and Labs have.
I should say that many of the early,”in development” goldens, Labs, and flat-coats had some of the heavier conformation but these bred out as the English field trial became more and more institutionalized. By 1900, they were all breeding for a lighter-built dog in all three strains (they weren’t separate breeds at the time). The flat-coat, the trial Lab, and some working goldens still maintain this more moderate build and less exaggerated body and head. I find it really interesting that one of the founding lines of golden, the Culhams, were bred with black flat-coats so much that for a time litter mates from their dogs were registered as separate breeds based on phenotype. There is at least one yellow Lab that whelped a few goldens.
Heavy-bodied flat-coats from the early twentieth century: http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/01/16/some-heavy-bodied-flat-coats/
I’d love to find a good history on the Large Muensterlaender, so I could see how it evolved from the Langhaar.
Solid liver Langhaar: http://www.agraria.org/cani/langhaar1.JPG
It is kind of similar to a liver flat-coat.
Did I ever say how much I love reading this Blog? Man you never cease to pour on the wonderful information. I’m definitely hooked.
I’m with Sengimage. Reading your blog is always very informative and enjoyable.
I fell completely and utterly in love with Large Mundersterlanders at Crufts in 2004.
http://www.pbase.com/giori/image/26771851
http://www.pbase.com/giori/image/26771837
Yes, they reminded me a lot of flatcoats. I sort of played with getting one for a while. Maybe someday …