Flock St. Salvator was an early boxer, but today, this dog could be mistaken for an American bulldog or a pit bull.
As controversial as this may sound, the boxer, the old-fashioned bulldog types, and the bull and terrier types are really nothing more theme and variation on the same basic dog. Yes, the dogs have somewhat different temperaments– that’s exactly what you’d expect when dogs are bred for many generations for different tasks.
These dogs all descend from the Alaunt de Boucherie and the Alaunt Veantre. The Alaunt de Boucherie (“Alaunt Butchers” as it was known in English) was the dog that worked free roaming cattle and half-wild swine and also guarded small estates. It was a dog of the common people in England, France, the Low Countries, and the German-speaking world. In those days, the land was free of fences and walls as we know today, and the dogs were needed to keep stock in line. The Alaunt Veantre was the early hog-dog type, the dog that the nobles used when hunting wild boar and bears.
The white dogs are Alaunts acting as Medieval hog dogs.
These dogs were very common. Different strains were used as war dogs and guard dogs, while others were used as catch dogs for big game and for controlling errant livestock.
And for centuries, the dogs evolved along those lines. Then in the reign of Henry VIII, bear-baiting became popular in England, and the dogs used for that particular practice were of the Alaunt Boucherie type. Bears, of course, were being imported from the English colonies in the New World, and large populations of them were bred to keep the baiting pits full of victims. Then bull-baiting became a popular activity, and the dogs that were bred for this became known as “bulldogs.”
On the European continent, especially in the Low Countries and the German speaking world, the bear and bull-baiting dogs were augmented with outcrosses to the Alaunt Veantre-type. These dogs became known as bullenbeiszers and baerenbeiszers– literally “bull-biters” and “bear biters.” These dogs were very similar to the English bulldog-types and probably were augmented with occasional cross-breeding.
Now, following the English Civil War, those who supported Charles I fled en masse to the Southern Colonies. They brought with them these bulldogs, which were kept as guard dogs and livestock managers. They also were used to catch the growing herds of feral livestock that once teemed across the American South, which today is only represented with the large population feral pigs that roams this part of the country. It is from these dogs that these “old-fashioned” bulldogs evolved.
The bulldog in England changed significantly, but it was later used to develop the boxer and bull and terrier breeds before it lost most of its functional conformation and behavior.
The latter was developed as the fighting dog for the pits. A touch of terrier was introduced to the strain to make the bulldogs a bit gamer. These dogs would eventually evolve into the pit bull-type and Staffordshire bull terrier. The dog we call the “bull terrier” today is actually not exactly from this strain, but it was instead developed from breeding white bulldogs to a pet white terriers. It was offered as a pet for gentlemen and was not primarily a fighting dog.
Bullenbeiszers.
The boxer is derived from a cross between the bullenbeiszer from Brabant and the baerenbeiszer type. It was designed to be a gentlemen’s guard dog in Munich, and it was well-known that English bulldogs were crossed into that strain. Yes, these dogs had a touch of the modern show-stain of bulldog in them.
Now, these dogs have certain similarities. That is why it is so easy to confuse some boxers with pit bulls. It is also why someone might confuse an American bulldog with a pit bull or that same breed with a white boxer. These dogs all descend from a common type, and the differences that exist among them are all the result of selective breeding from this common type.
Did you know white was a highly valued color among the nobility for alaunts/alans as well as greyhounds? The blue & white pied dog in the manuscript is more of a greyhound type, and was probably what was called a “running hound” in England. Running hounds were just that, crosses between greyhound types and alaunts. I suspect a good many of today’s breeds have running hounds behind them, the Segugio Italiano & the Great Dane just to name 2.
I thought that modern greyhounds had an important outcross to bulldogs. Do you know anything about that?
Also, some lines of Scottish deerhound and Irish wolfhound have a common ancestor that also helped found the modern English mastiff breed. One of the Lyme Hall mastiffs named Lion was bred to a Deerhound bitch and their progeny make up several lines of deerhound and wolfhound.
The Lyme Hall mastiffs descend from a dog that defended the body of an English knight named Sir Peers Legh at the Battle of Agincourt. He was from Lyme Hall, Cheshire, and the dogs. These dogs are bit different from modern English mastiffs– narrower in the head and more lightly built. In fact, the strain died out in the last century, but it existed from Sir Peers Legh’s time until then. It is one of the foundational lines of English mastiff.
I am not surprised but am delighted actually to read this about the Lyme Hall dogs. I didn’t realize there was greyhound behind them.
As to modern greyhounds being an important outcross to bulldogs, no I am afraid I am totally ignorant about that. And today’s bulldog? If there is greyhound in it a century or so ago, you couldn’t prove it by me, certainly not based on phenotype! The bulldog head is the antithesis of the greyhound’s, as is the chest, rib cage, length of loin, etc. If there is greyhound blood there, where the Hell did it go? There is a hint perhaps in some of the Bulldog races here in the US, as I have seen some pretty dogs with good, not exaggerated heads that allow them to breathe, nice leg length and chests that aren’t over wide causing the dog to waddle.
http://www.agreyhoundswish.org/hist_18.htm
Regarding the cross-breeding with Afghans mentioned in the link: this is recorded in the Afghan Handbook, the first book specifically about the Afghan, by Clifford ‘Doggy’ Hubbard. A red Afghan dog, Baz, was registered in the Greyhound studbook in 1911, and bred to a Greyhound bitch named Explosion. For some reason the litter was never registered.
Greyhound x bully breed is a very common cross used for rabbit hunting in the UK. They are also very attractive dogs, like a robust Greyhound.
I’ve seen a few photos of lurchers that were staffie/greyhound or whippet crosses.
Interesting about the Earl of Orford.
Have you checked out the old videos of the Waterloo Cup on http://www.britishpathe.com/index.php ?Fascinating film there, including early to mid 20th cent dog shows.
The English Bull Terrier did come from strains out of the pits…James Hinks crossed them with the extinct White English Terrier and Dalmatian among probably some other breeds, smooth collie and spanish pointer I have seen mentioned. As you said though, they were bred more for gentlemen than for the pits. To reintroduce colors they crossbred them back to Staffordshires. As recently as the 60s I was told never to breed two colored Bull Terriers as they will revert to Staff type. I would guess there are far more color-color and color-white breedings nowadays than white-white as was so common for so long. So the Staffordshire is well mixed within our BTs. (My foundation litter was a brindle and white dog bred to a fawn and white bitch)
The Hinks strain was founded by crossing a white bulldog with a white English terrier (a whippet-terrier cross, like the Manchester). It was bred to be a gentlemen’s pet that may have sometimes been fought, but it is not the same thing as the true bull and terrier strains, which are where we get the Staffie/Pit bull line. They are similar in that they are bulldog crossed with terrier– that’s all. There is also a lot of Dalmatian and pointer in the Hinks dog that doesn’t exist in the pit/staffie type.
The colored variety of bull terrier does come from cross breeding with staffies, but that’s because they figured out that white dogs were often deaf.
Again, the Hinks strain was meant to be a pet. Hinks was a pet dog dealer. He was trying to sell a dog that was called the white cavalier. A dog that, according to legend and lore, would never start a fight (like the working class bull and terriers) but would finish them.
I’ve seen photos of the coloreds that have the staffie look with erect ears.
However, the Hinks strain is very different and very distinct from the fighting bull and terrier line.
Well, I wouldn’t call your discussion of boxers “controversial”. I would call it “wrong.” ;-)
Boxers are not “pit bull type dogs” except in the sense that gorillas are monkey-type primates. That is, not… except for a common ancestor. Really, “pit bull type dog” is as meaningless a description as “retriever type dog”. Moreover, it’s a phrase used by many people who want to both deny there is a purebred pit bull breed (the “American pit bull terrier”, a sequence of words that apparently some people cannot type) and to tag any square-headed shorthaired dog as something to be restricted/banned/killed. Generally speaking, boxers are NOT hard to tell from “pit bulls” unless you’re someone like the idiot in this story: (http://bostonsandboxers.com/cp/index.php/archive/updates-on-dog-tasered-by-police-in-lakewood-oh-otis/)
The bull and terrier types that were developed in the early-mid 19th century in the UK, and later standardized during the purebred breed movement in the mid-late 19th century, are distinct from the bulldog types and breeds. They are NOT molosser/guardian dogs. They have VERY distinct form, function, behavior and temperament.
We know the 2 surviving types: the roman-nosed prickeared dogs named the “bull terrier” and the shorter-muzzled type later named the “Staffordshire bull terrier” in the UK. All of these dogs were pit fighters, ratters, general purpose and family dogs. Along with a variety of bulldog types, they were brought to the US where they developed into a somewhat different “bull terrier” and an “American pit bull terrier” (along with a regional variant, the “Boston bull terrier,” and the various American bulldogs). The distinction between the US version of the Bull Terrier and the APBT was often a blurry one, with colored APBTs being shown as BTs, and the white variety being called “American bull terriers”and often a fighter (see the Wallace Robinson WWI propaganda posters for an example). Some APBTs were actually shown as BTs in the AKC ring when the colored variety was permitted and before the AKC accepted the APBT with its name changed to “Staffordshire terrier” (later changed again to “American Staffordshire terrier”). Paula G’s comments above support this history.
There’s plenty of evidence for both the white and the colored version of both BT and APBT being pit fighters during the time that activity was legal in the US (the UK is a different story). And btw: Pit fighting is a different activity from generic dog fighting and the “gamedog” breeders weren’t particularly interested in dogs that would scrap outside of the pit, and outside of a challenge. But in those days, remember, dogs with a “take no crap” spirit were more admired than now (see Thurber’s Rex as an example, or for that matter Terhune’s Lad)
Dog breed development is a continuum not a stop/start story. Today, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the American Pit Bull Terrier/AST are distinctly different breeds from each other. And of course both are miles away from the Bull Terrier which I agree at this point is basically a show/pet dog. You see many SBTs/APBTs/ASTs in sporting activities and some actually “work” in such jobs as SAR/detection for which they are awesomely suited. BT in sports are rare, and if there’s a working BT, I haven’t heard about it.
I’m not sure what part of “bull and TERRIER” is hard to understand and accept. These dogs ALWAYS had “terrier” in their breed names, which were given to them by the fanciers who developed/created/standardized them (even as these same people often familiarly referred to the dogs as “bulldogs”). There is much more than a “touch” of terrier in the APBT and the SBT. Unlike the boxer, which has none.
It’s perfectly true that most people have no idea what an APBT actually looks like and fail tests like this: http://www.pbrc.net/misc/PBRC_find_the_pitbull.pdf
It’s also true that in the last 20-30 years, the APBT and the AST have been bred away from the correct standard (as have most breeds) and are often unbalanced in favor of an oversized, overly blocky bully appearance.
That doesn’t negate the fact that the APBT is as purebred and legitimate as any other breed (whether purebreds are legitimate at all is a different debate).
I think they are more like theme and variation on the same basic type. This type of dog has been around a while.
I’ve rather closely looked at boxer history (having had a dog from that strain). They do behave differently from the bull and terrier types– because of the terrier influence and selective breeding. But show goldens act differently from field goldens in that same vein. I have known boxers that were as game as pit bulls. I’ve knoiwn pit bulls that acted just like boxers.
I do differ with Patrick on American bulldogs and their like. They are not exactly the same. However, they obviously share a common ancestry. And boxers are different in some ways. Each strain is going to be unique as per the selective pressures. In Labradors, we have many different strains that behave almost like different breeds– sometimes with as much difference as we see in these bulldog types.
I think the reason why there is a resistance to the terrier influence in them is the terrier they are derived from isn’t an earth dog terrier. It’s the ratting pit terriers, like the Manchester and English white, which are whippet-crosses. The English white was offered up as a pet dog, but it soon fell out of favor because most of them were deaf.
I will tell you that I would have a very hard time telling the difference between a pit bull and an Amstaff. The other staffie is very easy recognized.
BTW, the reason why your comment didn’t instantly appear is that any comments with links in them automatically require moderation. They cannot be instantly approved– which I would like.
If by “pit bull” you mean “American pit bull terrier” (and there you go again, not being able to type that sequence of words! ;-) ) then yes, I agree that it can be difficult to tell that breed from the AST . That’s because the AST is only a renaming of the APBT. No breeds were added to the APBT when the AKC recognized it. Even the most APBT-distinctive dogs such as those with red noses, may actually be ASTs.
I simply don’t agree that a dog that doesn’t “go to ground” can’t be a real terrier. Being a terrier is about killing things efficiently, not about digging. The oldtimers didn’t have digging contests, they had rat pit contests. The larger terriers ARE terriers, and so is the APBT.
Of course I agree that there are different strains within each breed, and this is very very much true of breeds which still have working strains (even if that “work” isn’t allowed, as in the APBT; so called “gamebred” APBTs do look different from show ASTs). But at some point if the bird doesn’t quack like a duck, walk like a duck, or swim like a duck, it’s not a duck. And a boxer is not an APBT. Nor is the American bulldog. Nor is the Catahoula leapard dog. Or the Australian cattle dog. They are not even “pit bulls”.
I hate dog names that are more than three words long. I seriously do.
When I say Nova Scotia Duck-tolling retriever to a person who has never heard of them, they think I made it up.
As for pit bulls, the name you cite has an inaccuracy. The dogs aren’t from America. They are from Britain. The only reason why I call them American bulldogs is that old-fashioned bulldog has too many words in it.
Terrier comes from the Latin “terra”– which means “earth.” Of course, the Germans came up with better names for similar dogs, they called them pinschers (literally “biters”) and that can catch a bunch of dogs. The rough-haired ones, save the Ape Pinscher (as I call them), are all called schnauzer.
I tend to be a lumper in terms of taxonomy. A flat-coat, a Labrador, and a golden are all theme and variation on the same basic dog. They’ve diverged a bit over the years. A boxer is simply the German version of the alaunt that has been bred to be a protection dog then a very docile family pet. The bulldogs and their variants have all diverged from the alaunt.
Thinking of them as separate ignores their close common ancestry.
And this is a real problem in the dog world. I’ve met golden people who can’t tell you where the dogs came from or what its closest relative is.
Great discussion. I understand both sides and I think we all agree that these dogs all share a common ancestory in the Alaunt.
However, my question is different. What do you all think of the White English Bulldog?
There are still strains remaining in the southern regions of the country.
The panhandle of Florida, Georgia and Alabama are all locations where this dog still exsists.
They are the dogs that John D. Johnson and Alan Scott used to save the dogs from going extinct.
The named them American bulldogs but they’re still pure White English bulldogs left in the south with no modern or contemporary AB blood in them.
I’d like to hear your thoughts on the matter and also does anyone know where to find some credible information about these old bulldogs that still thrive in the rural south?
Thanks.
You mean these dogs: http://bttbab.com/
Yes, I’ve seen that site before and it’s pretty informative. I was just wondering if you or anyone here had some more knowledge or information.
No. All I have is from that site.
You see many SBTs/APBTs/ASTs in sporting activities and some actually “work” in such jobs as SAR/detection for which they are awesomely suited. BT in sports are rare, and if there’s a working BT, I haven’t heard about it.
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Reading this three years late, LOL. There is a “working” strain of BT called the Olde Boston Bulldogge. Some breeders say OBB’s are the direct, unchanged, ancestor of the BT, kept in its pre-show, pre-French Bulldog conformation/temperament. Others will say it is a recreation of that ancestral dog. I think it is a bit of both, because I know that BT’s, bulldogs, and even pits can be crossed in legally (open stud book) if they meet certain criteria as foundation animals. This is because the original gene pool was so small. I have my own line of these dogs that I started with a purebred BT as the foundation bitch, crossed with an OBB with a pedigree that goes back several generations with no outcrosses.
These dog are more robust and usually larger than BT’s. They have longer muzzles and open nostrils, with no breathing problems. Some of them look like small pits (around 30#). Several strains are still kept as farm dogs; cleaning up vermin, guarding, playing with the kids, etc.
Not sure what you mean by sport: there are a lot of BT’s doing agility and obedience. I had the first one to title in agility way back in the 90’s. We also did obedience at quite a high level, and I had one who was certified for tracking. They can do more than a lot of people think, but the BT _is_ hampered by it’s brachycephalic face. The OBB doesn’t have this problem.
Wish I could post pictures—not sure if it’s possible.
Here’s a video of one of my dogs at a herding instinct test. He had never seen sheep or any farm animals before. As you can see, he is not really “herding”, but chasing and trying to “cut out” an individual from the herd. When he managed to cut one out, he would bite it and hang on, trying to bring it down. This is what bulldogs have been bred to do for centuries, called catchwork. This was the second go round on a very hot day. He was annoyed at the shepherd for not letting him do his “job”.