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by Scottie Westfall

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Two theories about the origin of the St. John’s water dog that I can’t accept

November 5, 2009 by SWestfall3

Last St. John's water dogs

There are two often postulated theories about the origin of the St. John’s water dog, and I just don’t think it’s probable.

1. Richard Wolters believed they were derived from the black St. Hubert hound. He claims that the St. Hubert hounds were used to retrieve from a from Turberville that says the St. Hubert hounds were commonly “blacke” and used for finding “farre straggled” game. I’m surprised Wolters latched onto that theory, because he apparently didn’t know that St. Hubert’s hound is what was called a “lymer.” Lymers were used to track wounded game, which is actually one theory about how the bloodhound got its name. It actually trailed blood spoor.  Wolters thought that this was retrieving. It’s not.

2. Another theory goes that these dogs are derived from the French matin dog. A matin is an extinct dog that had features of the greyhound and mastiff– something like a Great Dane. It also was probably derived from the alaunt veantre. It is not and never has been a water dog. As far as I know it didn’t retrieve. Not a very good candidate. When I first read about this theory, I had just read a description of the French matin.  I don’t remember who came up with this theory, but the water dogs are no more likely to have been derived from this dog than they are from pekes or Afghan hounds.

The best and most logical theory is that these dogs are very closely related to the poodle type. Yes, even the big Newfoundland dogs most likely originally derived from something like a poodle. The most likely candidates are the Portuguese water dogs, Spanish water dogs, and the English rough water dog. These may have been interbred with the collie-types, setter and pointer types, water spaniels, and the Cao de Castro Laboreiro or something very similar to it. It is also possible that the large Arctic spitz from Labrador called the Labrador husky played a role. And it is very likely that some form of mastiff, probably the English mastiff, played a role in developing the larger strain of Newfoundland that was used mostly for hauling loads.

I am skeptical that the Great Pyrenees or its closer relatives played much of role, simply because the dogs lived deep in the mountains, far away from the coastal Basques who were visiting Newfoundland. And while a smaller guard dog, like a Cao de Castro Laboreiro, might be of some utility, a big one would be too costly in terms of the amount of food it would need to survive. Bringing a livestock guardian dog of that size across the Atlantic just to use as a watch dog simply wouldn’t have been economical, and these dogs were more valuable in the Pyrenees as flock guardians.

The best theory as to why these dogs lost their poodle type coat can be found here. And evidence of poodle-type water dogs in Newfoundland in the early days can be found here.

Farley Mowat traced his St. John’s water dog’s ancestry to the poodle-type dogs. In fact, he had reason to believe that they were related to the Portuguese water dog, which is often black with white markings– often exactly the same sort of white markings than were found on the St. John’s water dogs. It also occasionally has puppies that have coats a bit like a flat-coated retriever, which then would be very easily developed into a smooth-coated water dog. The Portuguese water dog’s temperament is very similar to that of a retriever. They are very friendly and eager to please. And many have very strong retrieving instincts.

Now, Mowat also traced the poodle-type dog’s origins all the way back to Russia. Now, here I disagree but only slightly. I think Central Asia is where they actually came from. The puli is a relative of this type and is a good example of what these dogs originally were. They are were herding dogs.  I can forgive Mowat, though, for at this time, most of Central Asia was under the control of Soviet Union.

I don’t know where people get these theories. I think it may be disconcerting for poodle-haters to accept that these all of their hunting dogs related to dogs of this type. They have be derived from hounds or mastiffs. In the case of these St. John’s water dogs and the Newfoundland, it is very common for people to hold onto the tired old story that Leif Ericsson brought them over. How these dogs managed to survive on their own for the nearly 500 years before the modern period of European colonization is a good question. They would have had to have survived on their own, because the Beothuks didn’t keep dogs.

Whatever, the reason, the fact that Portuguese water dogs are marked so similarly to the St. John’s water dog and posses the playfulness, retrieving instincts, and strong swimming ability associated with these ancestors of the retrievers means that we should look at them more closely. The Portuguese used the Grand Banks extensively until the end of the sixteenth century. The Portuguese, Spanish and French basques, and the English used Newfoundland as a base for fishing, and it is very likely that the water dogs from Portugal became common on the island, even after their original owners gave up on the fishery. Thus, the Portuguese water dog really should be carefully considered as a forebear of the St. John’s water dog, the Newfoundland, and the retrievers.

That Portuguese water dogs don’t often appear in duck blinds is immaterial.

Their conformation, temperament, and working instincts very strongly suggest that they are most likely the main ancestor of the St. John’s water dog, although I won’t rule out the Spanish water dog (which is actually used more often as a herding dog), the English rough water dog, or the barbet.

But it is clear to me that the St. John’s water dogs, the big Newfoundland, and the retrievers belong in this family. That they lack the non-shedding coats and the beards is immaterial. There aren’t that many genes that control the type of coat that a dog has, and it wouldn’t take very long for a poodle-type water dog to develop a smooth coat through selective breeding, natural selection, or both.

Posted in Newfoundland, Retriever history, St. John's Water Dog, working dogs | Tagged Barbet, English rough water dog, Newfoundland, portuguese water dog, spanish water dog, St. John's Water Dog | 8 Comments

8 Responses

  1. on November 5, 2009 at 2:18 pm HTTrainer

    JMHO. I don’t know, we rely heavily on evidence based upon one or a few examples. We want to classify and categorize everything we find. Curiosity leads to great discoveries. It keeps university research departments busy especially in field of the anthropology, where one “complete” specimen fills in the huge gaps of evolutionary chains.
    But dogs before the registries (like other domestic animals) have been an unrecorded mix and match for centuries.

    No doubt it would be exciting to travel back in time to see these ancient, foundation dogs and talk with people who bred them. I doubt it but there may be evidence in old libraries but researching for information in old books takes time and is nowhere as exciting as time travel. Until then maybe we should limit using today’s breed names and look for whatever information we can discover on the water dogs of the western European Coast, up to and including the Irish coastline. We may find more leads to better understanding the origins of today’s breeds than previously considered.


    • on November 5, 2009 at 2:28 pm retrieverman

      I’m looking for evidence of black water dogs from the Devon and Dorset coasts right now. Devon and Dorset are actually where the core of the English cod industry was located. Poole is (historically) part of Dorset, and Poole is where the first of these dogs arrived in Britain. Large numbers of fishermen from Devon and Dorset settled in Newfoundland, and that’s one reason why Newfoundland English is so distinctive.


    • on November 5, 2009 at 2:33 pm retrieverman

      The reason why I’m looking at this area is that this is not only the region where the St. John’s water dogs would have been commonly imported into England, but it also the area where one could find lots of curly-coated retrievers. I don’t know if this is where they developed, but it is often said that the curly predated the St. John’s water dog imports or was even an ancestor of them. I am not going that far– but there may have been a unique black water spaniel or water dog from that part of England that helped found both breeds.


    • on November 5, 2009 at 2:41 pm retrieverman

      Another possibility is that William of Orange invaded England through Devon in 1688.

      In the Dutch province of Friesland (where Frisian is the language), there is curly coated water dog that was developed for hunting otters and retrieving. It is called the Wetterhoun or Otterhoun (“water dog or otter dog”). It does come in black: https://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/wetterhoun.jpg

      And it looks a lot like a St. John’s water dog with something like the curly’s coat, just with a curled spitz’s tail.

      Maybe some of these dogs survived in Devon after William of Orange’s invasion and then were taken to Newfoundland.

      Of course, the dates are all later than when the St. John’s water dog appears in the texts.


  2. on November 5, 2009 at 11:09 pm HTTrainer

    Oh that these people kept better records. We now know they didn’t, they were very careless or hid them to prevent stealing. But that said-
    Over the past ten years I have found numerous sites for sporting (and field) dogs, whether they be spaniels, retrievers or poodles. However we classify these breeds is not as important as understanding that before and during the Age of Discovery as commercial shipping merchants moved from one port to another on the eastern Atlantic coast they may have brought dogs with them.
    We do not know if these dogs were gifts from one merchant to the another or from one village to another to promote goodwill. I am sure that they served both an economic and social purpose, promoting trade and improving the social and political exchange between port cities (entrepots) nations. Any political issues were resolved through diplomacy or ultimately war.
    Why else would the spaniel, with its eponymic reference to Spain be found in the Netherlands, England and Ireland?
    The geography of dogs is not well studied. the records we have are terrible and though the friendships between shippers were probably recorded in letters and other correspondence they were lost over time. Nobody knew or cared.
    We can try to connect the dots and we should bring a very good soft eraser to re-connect and amend new information as it becomes available to us.


    • on November 5, 2009 at 11:14 pm retrieverman

      Dogs are property. And in those days, they were even more considered property than they are now.

      I don’t think people wrote down the exact records of the ropes and chains on their ships, so why would they write about dogs?


  3. on January 29, 2010 at 2:10 am Bridget

    I think the beagle would be a better suggestion than the st Hubert’s dog.
    And why do I think this? Devon area has been known for its good beagles and beagle hunting for a damn long time. To take some beagles with was very natural to the Devon men who sailed to NF. They are easy going dogs and would stay in line better than many other hunting dogs.


    • on January 29, 2010 at 2:45 am retrieverman

      It’s possible, but having had a beagle or two in my life, they are very hard to train and they hate water. They generally aren’t the best water dogs.

      They look exactly like bantamized English foxhounds.



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