If my dog caught a squirrel, my reaction would be the exact opposite. I’d be more like “Hell, yes!”
I don’t know why people have issues with dogs engaging in predatory behavior. Of course, these are very often the same people who have issues with people engaging in similar behavior. (They usually don’t have a problem with cats doing this, and cats do it even more often and with greater efficiency than any dog.)
I mean this is a Weimaraner, a hunter, pointer, and retriever (HPR).
Oh, I forgot.
Miley did catch a huge fox squirrel a few weeks ago. It was sitting out in the pasture and was too far from any tree to escape. She caught it, but because she is a retriever, she couldn’t actually kill it. So she carried it around alive in her mouth, which gave the big squirrel an opportunity to fight back.
And it fought back.
And it took refuge in a tree.
Oh my goodness! That poor dog. It has the most confused look on its face. “Why are you telling me no? I GOT A SQUIRREL!”
There’s apparently a heirarchy of other animals which a dog may kill. Mice.. ok. Rats.. ok. Groundhogs.. ok. Squirrels.. maybe. Rabbits… NOOOOOOOOOOO. Cats.. a MILLION TIMES NOOOOOOOOOO. Dogs…. a death sentence.
or so I read on the blogs…
Dogs are predators, although not as efficient as wild C. lupus or C. latrans.
So is Homo sapiens.
I’ve never bought into this Peter Singer poppycock. I use a utilitarian measure for my ethics, but where I set the bar is very different.
Some animals produce many, many offspring. Most of those offspring must die through predation or they will surely die of disease or over-exploitation of their resources.
If I were the creator of the universe, I would make it so evolution didn’t require predation, disease, or anything else nasty or bad. Ecosystems could exist without death or dying as a check on populations.
But since I’m not, I accept that man is a predator and so are dogs. Predation is not dog fighting.
See Mr. Erich Fromm on what predation is for our species: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~powlesla/personal/hunting/text/sadism.txt
Dogs fighting each other to the death is not a natural condition. It might be true for wolves, but it’s not true for dogs. Dogs normally won’t eat the flesh of other dogs unless they have nothing else to eat, which is where we get the term “dog eat dog.”
I honestly don’t care about that squirrel. It’s next to impossible for a dog to catch them, and if a dog can, it’s certainly got some skills.
It is simply a false equivalence to put hunting in the same category as animal fighting.
You cannot tell me that there is any difference between that dog killing a squirrel and that squirrel being killed by a hawk or a bobcat.
A dog is a natural predator on this continent. It is a form of C. lupus. And where there are no wild C. lupus, dog predation is substitute– granted, a rather poor substitute.
I don’t know what the difference is, but for our boys (all retrievers) killing rodents isn’t that much of an issue, they’ll do it just fine. And then return to hand…
But with birds at least Sulo just carries them gently in his mouth for me to finish off – just like a true retriever should. I’m not sure about the others, since they haven’t had to carry wounded birds on our hunts.
I had a golden that was excellent at killing things and bringing them pack.
My current dog has not learned how to kill, but she does like carrying live ones in her mouth.
A fox squirrel is a huge squirrel– weighing as much as a kilo and half.
I’m not saying any of that.
Of course, the dogs behavior is “natural” in the sense that there are no moral/ethical issues for them, because those are human notions. (but since dogs are human creations, with behaviors different from wolves… do you want to define what “natural” is?)
But really it’s the human’s motive I’m interested in exploring.
I suppose the squirrel doesn’t care whether it’s a dog or a cat or a hawk or a human that kills it. The rabbit doesn’t care; I read that it’s only born to die and coursing dogs kill it quickly and less painfully than a hawk does. (though how a human knows how a rabbit feels kind of escapes me) Does it make a difference to the human whether he shoots a squirrel for dinner, runs it over with a car or poisons it? What if this is about a cat… say, a feral cat. BTW: is the behavior of a feral cat “natural”?
What defines “hunting”? Is it hunting when a a human kills a confined animal for its hide/horns (it’s certainly not in my state which doesn’t allow gamefarms)? Is it hunting when a human walks up to a bison and shoots it? Is it hunting (for the human) when a dog chases down a rabbit? How about a coyote? Is terrier work “hunting”? Is it “hunting” if neither the dog nor the human kills the prey? Is it hunting if the dog kills it? Or if the human kills it? Is hunting defined by “predation”? And “predation” only when one animal kills and eats another? (I’m quite sure you know that predation is NOT just about eating)
I disagree that dogs are “natural” predators (whatever “natural” means). They are wolves that have evolved into a different species, whose behavior has been shaped by humans. Feral dogs do not behave the way wolves behave.
Why is it any more “unnatural” for a dog to fight a dog than for a dog to fight/kill a cat or a squirrel or a rabbit or a coyote at a human’s behest (or on its own for that matter)? Or a possum or raccoon… or anything else people use dogs for. Dogs fight each other all the time. But dogs.. even dogs supposedly bred to fight other dogs, RARELY fight to the death outside the fighting pit where they have no choice.
Dogs (or wolves for that matter) generally don’t want to fight to the death… they only want to fight for possession and want to escape if they’re losing. Though of course dogs of all types and breeds kill each other all the time. Human-directed dogfighting is something else entirely, a cruel and morally corrupt activity. But WHY is it morally corrupt? What is the difference between hoghunting (where a dog holds the hog) and bullbaiting? Why do we have “terrier work” and live animal coursing but not rat pit contests?
But then, LGDs are more likely to kill another canid than the average “pit bull” supposedly bred to kill. So it’s not the killing that we object to, is it? Killing for our purposes is ok. Sometimes. Which purposes?
Why is a dog used in dogfighting automatically assumed to be dangerous (though now increasingly regarded as a victim), while dogs used to kill other creatures are not?
It’s about people and our biases and assumptions. It’s not about dogs.
The reason why humans get this way is because we are a hunter-gatherer species.
Like it or not, a lot of humans have hunting instincts.
I didn’t realize I had them until I went fishing, and well, it was then I realized that something else was at work.
Actually, wolves do fight to the death. The number one cause of wolf mortality in Yellowstone and the High Arctic is other wolves.
However, dog fighting and bull-baiting are not acceptable because they are not based upon the principles of the fair chase. If a pack of greyhounds catches a coyote and dispatch it, it is very different from pit fighting, where the dogs are trained to tear each other apart and cannot get away. Those greyhounds are usually not aggressive with each other, and the coyote suffers only momentarily.
Alas, my computer won’t show this video, but I’ll respond anyway! I was getting ready to respond on your sighthound segment about sighthounds not being effective in the forested East U.S. I have had 3 sighthounds–a Saluki, an Azawakh, and presently a Greyhound X Saluki cross. They certainly are not as effective in actually capturing prey as they would be in more open country, but mine have still all functioned quite well! My present Greyhound/Saluki longdog is DEATH on squirrels–catches them quite regularly, better than any dog I’ve ever seen! He either brings them to me or buries them. As I am not so hard up that I need squirrels for food(I actually lived on squirrels hunted with a wolf-dog many years ago for a few weeks), I usually leave them where a passing coyote or fox can find them–and they are usually gone by the next day! I hate to see anything like that wasted, but NO WAY would I ever PUNISH a dog for doing what comes natural! I always praise them for any successes they achieve in hunting–you never know when you might really need that help one day! If there is time, and any of my many dogs(I also have a super Weimaraner who is quite the hunter!) are inclined to eat their kill, I also allow that. As for wolves and dogs not fighting to the death “naturally”–they don’t tend to within the pack(though I have seen exceptions due to serious rivalries, alas), but they COMMONLY do to anyone outside the pack. It is true that domestication has assuredley changed dogs from wolves to a degree, but make no mistake, there is STILL a LOT left of the wolf in the dog, depending on breed or type of dog, and circumstances, of course. I once studied(for my own elucidation) a pack of completely feral dogs–these guys lived totally wild, hunting and scavenging with no human contact–they were as shy and wild as wolves(very hard to actually spot them, in fact!), avoiding humans like the plague(they were regularly shot at, and lost pack members due to being shot, mostly by irate farmers). They lived in a typical wolf pack structure, hunted large prey at times(these were large, German Shepherd-cross type dogs)–in fact were terrible livestock killers–and raised their young in dens they dug themselves–very, very wolflike!
Where I live you have these deep drop-offs, usually every hundred yards or so. Most of the land is very dense cover and then tall timber.
I do not live under any illusion that my dogs aren’t predators. But I still don’t encourage the killing of other living beings. Perhaps I’d be more lenient in my thinking if my younger dog (who would be a superb huntress) actually ate her kills. Probably not – she can enjoy her mad hunting skillz through flirt pole play and tug of war. I know it’s not the same, but I’m sure she’ll survive. :)
My older dog, a pit bull, was not made for speed and gets her kicks out of chasing and stalking small animals but would only be capable of catching the slowest or most inept. Even then, it is unlikely she’d deal the death blow…then again, she’s never had an opportunity for me to find that out.
WTF, Thousands if years of breeding can’t be changed.
I found it kind of amusing that she kept on trying to comfort herself and the squirrel with her words that everything was going to be ‘ok’. I think this might be what the dog finds so confusing…’NO,NO,NO…oh, it’s ok…’
My parents’ German Shepherd taught himself to kill, apparently. First the neighbor’s pigeons, then squirrels. I remember one time when a small ground squirrel jumped out of the brush under his nose and his reaction was even quicker than that weimaraner. Two snaps and it was lunch.
And yet he never chases cats.