If you follow Cesar’s advice, e-collars will be banned.
I’m not so sure Cesar knows how to use one.
Has he ever heard of collar conditioning?
You see, e-collars are not inherently evil.
But misuse of them definitely is.
I suppose he’s trying to teach the dog not to attack the cat.
Well, here’s the thing about that.
E-collars are a good tool, but if the dog is screaming and redirecting its aggression towards a person.
It is a misue of the tool.
If you have to shock the dog over and over, and the dog still doesn’t get why he’s being shocked. You are misusing the collar.
When dogs are trained to use invisible fences, you know what the direction say?
They don’t say, turn the dog loose and let him get shocked. They are usually instruction that teach the dog that the owner doesn’t want the dog to cross the boundaries and that the beep is just a secondary sign that something bad could happen.
Then you let the dog experience the consequence of crossing the line.
I don’t see any of that here.
I see someone who is zapping a dog to be zapping a dog.
And if I were sympathetic to PETA, I’d be sending this in an e-mail to Ms. Newkirk ASAP.
If you want e-collars to be legal — and I do– then you’ll condemn missue.
I’ve heard of people using e-collars on the genitals of dogs.
I’ve heard them using them on puppies (not a wise move).
I have no issue with using them for training. However, as you all know, I think the collar can have some real long term effects on the behavior of the dogs produced in breeding programs.
But if we’re talking individual use, they aren’t that bad. It’s easier to misuse a choke chain. In fact, if I had it my way, we’d ban choke chains and keep the e-collars and pinch collars (you can’t choke a dog to death with a pinch collar).
I can’t view the video at work, I’ll have to check it out at home, but I do have to say that there are two general ways to use an e-collar–direct pressure, and indirect pressure. Indirect pressure involves collar conditioning and teaching the dog what the correction means.
Retriever trainers use a lot of indirect pressure, because it preserves working drive. A retriever trainer will occasionally use direct pressure in an extreme or obvious situation.
I’ve seen Cesar on his show use an e-collar as direct pressure, as in the episode where the farm dog was chasing the tractor. That extinguishes drive, which Cesar wanted to do in that case. A person has to be able to read a dog well to do this, and he can. I’ve never seen him use indirect pressure–that’s more of a behavioral tool than a training tool, and he’s pretty clear that he’s not a dog trainer.
I don’t have a problem with Cesar. I think he’s fair, because he reads dogs really well and anticipates correctly.
Unfortunately, a lot of Cesar-ites are idiots. Check out his forum–there are all sorts of idiots “alpha-rolling” their “red zone” puppies.
I said something backwards–hopefully it can be fixed. indirect pressure is the training tool–direct pressure is more a behavior extinguisher. Sorry. Shouldn’t be doing this at work.
He’s not fair at all.
He did use the e-collar properly on an ACD that was chaisng a tractor– I think that’s what you’re referring to. That worked.
I’m not so sure he’s stopping this dog from doing anything!
It’s just making it worse.
LMFAO, those red zone puppies… you know the ones, the “we’re putting him down if we can’t get him to potty train, he IS 10 weeks old, darn it!” It takes time to ruin a dog, and unless there’s a neurological disorder or an illness (which don’t respond to aggressive rehab techniques anyway) there’s no reason anyone should be trying Cesar on puppies.
As for the video:
* Who are the idiots commenting on the video who think it’s a vibration collar…. no, no it’s not. It might have a vibration feature, but no dog buries their head under a chair from vibration mode.
* The problem isn’t using a shock, nothing I saw was cruel. The problem is failing to use the collar in a smart manner. WHY THE HELL would you have the owner there, TOUCHING THE DOG while you push the button? That was stupid. One of the advantages of an e-collar is that you can use them at a distance and you can remove the causal link from you to the shock. The dog won’t think YOU are shocking it.
If you want the dog to behave when you aren’t there and the collar isn’t on, then that is important. You have to make it seem like a bolt from heaven that can happen whenever the dog misbehaves no matter if the collar is on (why you need to have them wear it and not use it for several days and not use it immediately after putting it on), of if you’re not there.
The owner may as well had a sharp stick, as the dog clearly thought she shocked him when her hand was on its back and it got shocked.
* I don’t know if it was making it worse or better, I’d need to see the way the dog acted around the cat before and have a clearer and longer video. If they wanted to make a “teachable moment” out of this case with the e-collar, I would have appreciated a signal on the screen when the button was actually pushed.
It was hard to tell when the dog was whining because he wanted to kill the cat or when he got shocked.
I’ve got one who whines like she’s being tortured when she wants to go outside. She’s never met an e-collar or been pained in any way (save her de-dewclawing, which has saved me so much frustration on that front), she’s just vocal and has a high pitched whine that could break glass.
Maybe Obama’s feminazis hacked your comment….
Cesar has a book on puppies.
I’ve not read it, so I can’t say what he thinks of how to raise puppies.
I personally think puppies should start training as soon as they can walk and eat solid food.
Cesar is being marketed way beyond his usefulness. Of course the calm, assertive, rules and boundaries stuff is pretty much relevant all over the place. And that’s all that it says on the puppy video description. Well, duh, but I think TECHNIQUES are just as important with puppies as style.
As I pointed out before, the content of his puppy training video (according to his website) is all OTHER trainers, who are actually training in the sense of tricks and evoking behaviors, not suppressing them. Techniques.
I looked into it for a post about the false dichotomy between Dunbar and Millan. Basic observation is that Dunbar made his name in puppies, Millan with “red zone” (define that how you will) dogs. Dunbar’s videos seem perfectly in line with the calm, assertive, etc. ethos.
So I don’t see what Cesar would really add otherwise to puppy training. Puppies can be trained off leash from a very young age (as Dunbar) and really don’t need to be corrected at all. None of mine have destroyed anything after teething, learned to use the pee pad right away, etc. And with those fear periods, why would you take the risk of making the wrong impression with anything other than warm fuzzies.
Sure, calm and assertive is good. So is teaching rules and limitations. But again, these aren’t unique to Cesar nor really controversial.
Calm, assertive, rules, boundaries, and exercise–
Who can argue with that?
I’m not.
Maybe he can help aggressive dogs in some cases.
I just need some more science. I want that longitudinal study.
Perfect example of how e-collars really might not be a good tool in a situation like this.
See, I told you I don’t agree with everything Cesar does! (Then there’s that alpha roll thing, which was in another thread…) FnL, I think you hit the nail on the head: people who tend to watch the show and think they can “rehab” a dog–who might not even NEED rehabbing as much as simple obedience–generally manage to f*** things up pretty well. Eh, then again there are self-professed “trainers” who do a good enough job of that anyway :/
I’ve always likened training collars to guns, and I think I did in another entry of yours. I like to shoot, as long as it’s either a paper with a circular pattern on it, a tin can, or (when in appropriate season) an animal who happens to stumble upon me in the woods. I do not appreciate people who use them to take the lives or materials of others. Similarly, I do not appreciate people who deliberately misuse any type of training collar, since that is obviously not how they are used responsibly and in the best interest of the dog. It’s those people who really mess it up for the people who use it as intended, safely, and know both when to use it and when NOT to.
By the way, I’m always amazed at people who prefer the benign slip collar over the evil evil torturous-looking pinch collar–like training clubs who use the slip but have to give “special permission” to use the pinch, or even vets who are fine with them but OHNOEZ NOT TEH [nonchoking!] POKIES. Slip collars are great in the right hands, but unfortunately the general public does not have a good handle on how to use them right…I’d much rather they pick up an appropriately-fitted pinch collar and learning how to gauge their correction level before they go yanking on a literal noose.
I’m not against pinch collars or the chain collars that are made like pinch collars.
The ones that slip are very easily misused– leaving them on and then the dog strangles itself.
I’d never leave a training collar of any sort on an unattended dog. (Kind of a dilemma when mine is barking at 5am now, and we’re debating using a bark collar, I just don’t want her to be wearing it all night, but there’s really no other choice.) It really rubs my fur the wrong way when I see dogs wearing slip or pinch collars with their tags on them. And to boot, the collar is fitted completely wrong more often than not.
What some people seem to forget, though, is that the common kennel lead can be as much of a noose as a choker. It’s a temporary confinement measure, though, so you’re probably not going to see long-term damage (if any).
The problem comes from the fact that, with that the pinch vs slip collar “study” is now an obvious fraud, there is nothing to really support the hypothesis that any type of training collar causes damage. There’s more than enough anecdotal evidence where damage is suspected, and then there’s damage where no one can prove any ties back to the use of any one collar. My old dog had some cervical spine problems and mild hind leg ataxia a few months before he died that was thankfully able to be fixed(?) with steroids, muscle relaxants and rest. But could we tie it back to our use of a slip collar? Possibly, but who can prove it? Can anyone tie any cervical/neck injuries or eye irritation ( 1, 2, and I have a 3rd pic but not on this computer) with the “gentle” leader? Premier says that they will investigate any injury that occurs, and it didn’t really dawn on me at the time that either no one thinks that the “g”l was a cause (because sometimes injuries can and do happen) or there’s too much time between use of the tool and first observation of the problem to make a definite conclusion that hey, this MUST have caused it, or they’re just ignorant to the injuries because nothing so “humane” can hurt the fragile dog (by the way, those nose scar pics are mine). I have heard of only one case of potential burns from an e-collar that seemed to look more like pressure sores (although malfunction from an inferior pet store brand was indeed possible), and of course there was a big debate on it, just click the “Thread: Warning E-collars” link at the top right for the whole 5 pages. (I’d say this was an anomaly though, because the problem here was definitely the collar in some way/shape/form.)
Sorry to get off on that tangent (and for all the extraneous links too), but I just got to thinking about it and you know what happens when I think…I mostly don’t shut up.
Facebook group: http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Anti-Cesar-Millan/97584126794?ref=ts
Gawd, some of the videos there reminded of all the things I don’t like about Cesar all over again.
And you know, it’s sad because he really believes in the rightness of what he does. He really loves dogs, you can tell. But he’s wrong on a lot of things, to a harmful degree.
At first Cesar does okay, though I don’t understand how in a close environment like that an e-collar was any better than a pinch or choker. Unless the owner needs the e-collar because she doesn’t have a good physical collar correction (I’m sympathetic–try as I might, I can’t get a good choker correction–I’ve even practiced on myself…), but then he should be giving her more instruction about his timing.
Once the cat is in the box, though, the dog gets confused. While I think most of its reaction that we see is not taking place WHILE there’s stimulus happening (it’s in reaction to it), the dog is confused and bolting. That’s why retriever trainers prefer to collar condition, “de-bolt,” and teach commands and use the e-collar as a hands-free leash. Confusion and histrionics are not very productive.
Just to put it out there, Terry Gross at NPR interviewed Temple Grandin, she talked about one good use for E collars:
She asked Temple “Would you ever use negative reinforcement punishment as a way to discipline an animal?
Grandin’s reply: “Most of the times I would not, but I would never say never. I would never use punishment on something that’s fear-based behavior because that will worsen it. If you want to teach the animal a new skill – like if you want to teach a dog a trick, I want to do that all with positive reinforcement. You want to teach the lion or the dolphin at the marine park or the zoo to cooperate with veterinary work, that’s all done with positive reinforcement -totally, totally, totally.
There’s only one thing where punishment is – you just about have to use punishment and that’s stopping prey-drive behavior. You’ve got a dog that’s killing cats or you’ve got a dog that’s killing sheep and they’ve already done it. I absolutely despise shock collars and I despise a lot of the things that hunters are doing with shock collars. I think it’s totally wrong. But there’s one legitimate use for it: Car chasing, jogger chasing, cat killing, deer chasing, anything that’s prey-drive behavior. And this is not aggression and it’s not fear. It’s a very special other kind of emotion that the animal has. And you’d want to put the collar on, have the dog wear it for two days, and then – because you never want him to find out that the collar did it. And then one day a thunderbolt from the sky blasts him for chasing deer. And that’s one of the few situations I would use a punishment. For all kinds of other things, no.”
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=123383699
I wonder how Temple Grandin would react to Cesar…
Oh I have the answer to that!
You’re in luck. I have all my dog books within easy reach.
In her new book Animals Make Us Human, she does have some good words to say about Mr. Millan. It starts at the bottom of page 29 and it goes onto page 33.
Here’s what she says on page 33:
So she likes him.
Doesn’t change my view of him at all.
She goes on to say that most domestic dogs need parents (something like what I said in an earlier post), but if you put a bunch of unrelated dogs in one area, you’re going to need a Saddam Hussein to handle things. I don’t know if I buy that.
Having been to European parks, where tons of dogs are running around off leash, I don’t think any of that is necessary.
We’ve got a lot of what Elizabeth Marshall Thomas calls “dog fascists” in this country. It’s a shame she believes in ESP. She’s really good source otherwise!
I’ve been to Russia and I can also attest that groups of unrelated dogs in a fairly unnatural setting to not need a dictator!
Great point.
I’m surprised that she praises him at all, actually. Oh well. I guess she hasn’t seen this clip.
please please sign and share our e-petition to ban these at http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/58850 as well