This dog is a golden retriever/border collie cross.
For some reason, people expect this cross to look like a border collie with gold coloration. Such dogs exist. They are called “Australian red” or gold border collies. If one of those is crossed with golden retriever, the puppies will be various shades of gold. This same color exists in English shepherd dogs, where it is called “clear sable.”
True sable colllie types are genetically quite different from golden retrievers. Several years ago, someone started a designer breed by crossing sable collies with golden retrievers. The results were mostly black dogs that looked something like border collies crossed with flat-coated retrievers. The breed folded because they did not understand the genetics of coat color. Everyone wanted a golden collie dog, not a black dog that had collie and golden parents. Goldens do not carry any sable genetics, so it is impossible for the recessive red to yellow to mask sable, as it apparently has with brindle. (These golden retriever/Malinois crosses suggest that some goldens have Kbr, which is masked by the e/e).
Of course, most of this is a moot point when it comes to border collies. Most border collies are black and white dogs. The black is dominant black, and when bred to a golden retriever, the black color is dominant to the yellow to red coloration (e/e). Solid coloration is dominant to various forms of spotting genetics, so the puppies are mostly solid black in color.
Here is another golden retreiver/border collie cross:
Because most goldens are BBee in their genotype, many golden mixes are actually black, and in shelters, get labeled as “Lab mixes.”
However, if the dog is long-haired, it is very unlikely that it is an F1 cross with a Lab. A tiny, tiny minority of Labradors carry the recessive long-haired gene– the result of crossbreeding with goldens and flat-coats (and maybe Newfoundlands and setters). Long-haired Labs exist but are very rare, much rarer than brindle Labradors or black and tan or chocolate and tan Labs.
A Labrador retriever crossed with a long-haired border collie would most likely be smooth-haired. So if one finds a black dog dog that has retriever and border collie features, it is most likely a golden retriever/border collie cross, not a Lab and border collie cross.
I have a tri-colored border collie that I adopted from rescue as a puppy. I’m still not entirely clear on the circumstances of how he and his litter mates landed in rescue, but I have seen pictures of both parents, one of whom is a very pale Aussie Red.
There’s no other point to this post. Just thought I’d share ;)
e/e can mask tan points, so it’s not surprising that the dog would be tricolored.
Here’s a golden/rough collie cross with tan markings:
Neat. To be clear, my guy is all border collie. Mom was black and tan tri as well. That’s why there was really no point to the post. No genetic mysteries. I just like mentioning that he comes from an Aussie red sire.
Pretty interesting how this works out sometimes.
neat post.
admittedly I never gave a rat’s ass about color genetics because in rescue, a dog just IS, regardless of markings or color.
But the genetics of color are very interesting.
In my experience, Goldens may carry any of the patterns expressed via black (or liver), such as sable, bi-color (black with tan points, like a Doberman), or saddle. Some years ago we had an accidental breeding between our Golden female and the sable farm collie next door. Result: 2 black-and-tans, one sable. The rich sable coloring would have made a Tervuren breeder envious, except for the lack of a mask. The black-and-tans were very clearly marked. All had lovely personalities.
I’ve never seen a sable out of golden/collie cross. I have seen black and tans, but most are black.
The black and tan coloration is on the agouti series.
e/e can mask all of these, but I didn’t think true sable was masked in goldens. I know that Kbr is.
Well, I know that that sable dog (and two black-and-tans) came from our Golden bitch, as I was there at the whelping!
As for agouti — I strongly suspect that that color pattern was in the Golden Retriever breed as well. There were numbers of Goldens in the 1950s-60s that had the banded hair shafts of agouti patterning. These dogs almost always had the good hard coats and dense undercoats of a practical retriever– far from the fluffy open coats of so many Goldens of today. Others had the hair shaft paler at the base and very dark at the tips, typical of the distribution of pigment in the sable pattern. These patterns were less obvious because they were expressed in shades of yellow-to-red, rather than having black as the dark pigment. Some people found these patternings unattractive and the coats less amenable to popular grooming techiques, so they fell out of favor in the show lines.
Many of these color patterns can still be found in the Chesapeake Bay breed, although expressed in shades of brown. (Which enables the pattern to be more obvious). This often confuses inexperienced judges of Chessies, but is absolutely not to be penalized.
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/agouti.html
Black and tan alone would suggest some masking of agouti.
Pure Labs with brindling in the tan markings.
There are several references in early writings about retrievers, to the “tabby” (brindled) markings on some retrievers, that is, the progenitors of Labradors (and possibly Wavy-coats). At least one felt that this was an indication of the “genuine article”, so to speak. And I have seen one such, brought to the vet clinic where I worked.
I think that is mentioned in Eeley’s History of Retrievers, but it’s in other sources, too.
Wavy-coated retrievers had some collie in them. There are many accounts of collies being used as retrievers– and the one in the Ranton painting looks like one of Queen Victoria’s collies.
One source- which I can’t find right now– claims that the wave in the wavy-coated retriever came from breeding in really wavy-coated collies-types from the borders (border collies.)
Several of Queen Victoria’s collies look very retrievery; Noble with long coat, Sharp with short. (There were several named “Noble”). In Windsor Castle there is a statue of Queen Victoria seated, with a dog at her feet; most people would take it for a retriever rather than a collie.
It wouldn’t surprise me a bit, if there were collies of that sort behind some of the unregistered dogs in the early years of Golden registrations. Collies of the “working type”, not the “show type”. And they could well be the source of the tan-point, agouti, and/or sable color patterns.
I should have said “a source of” those color patterns. There are also other possibilities.
I have seen photos of sable English cockers.
You’ll have to consult a Cocker source about that…I understand that sable (which also now occurs in American Cockers) is a “bone of contention” at present. Some feel that it is a recent introduction and not a “true spaniel color”.
The same with blue merle in American cockers….
I would far sooner accept sable in spaniels, than merle. Merle has never been a recognized coat color in any of the British-developed gun dog breeds, as far as I know.
While it’s possible (although unlikely) that there was a mutation from M to m at some time, that’s not a reason to accept merle as a recognized color in the cocker.
And blue-eyed spaniels ….heaven help us!!
This is a very good chart!
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/tan.htm
Guilty as charged of most of those errors in expectation. I said Lab cross here not because of color (and not knowing that a Lab’s short hair gene would dominate the long coats on most BCs) but because of the face shape, particularly the eyes.
That bottom photo here, though, is a different matter.
This conformation actually reminds me of that dog posted on wikipedia as a feral type dog where you can’t identify the parent dog’s genetics.
I saw someone selling “gollies” on Puppyfind.com a few years ago…asking outrageous prices for a bunch of random-looking black puppies. Just wanted to share that. :)
“Gollie” referring to a rough collie/golden retriever cross. :)
Those were the ones I was referring to, and because they were mostly black dogs, no one wanted them.
People wanted an actual gold collie.
Ok, does anyone have an idea of what my boy is? He weighs about 90 pounds, has a large, fairly blocky head, and a long, mohagany coat (very irish-setter like in color, but more golden retriever-like in length/ texture), with a white patch on the chest. When I rescued him I was told he was a newfie mix, but who knows? Here is a link to some pics:
Thanks for your help.
Brian
Maybe Bronze Newfoundland crossed with a golden retriever that either carried the brown-skin gene or had brown skin. A tiny minority of goldens have brown skin and the e/e gene that makes them gold prevents them from being liver/bronze/chocolate (all the same color genetically).
Goldens with black skin are actually black dogs with the same gene that makes their fur gold instead of black.
Thanks! Very helpful!
I have a golden/border collie mix as well, got her from a shelter when she was about 3 months old. I knew no one else would probably take her, because of “black dog syndrome”, even though I knew what kind of dog she had in her. The shelter had listed her as a “lab mix” as well.
She’s the sweetest thing ever, and a big ham, and I don’t think color should be a factor in someone choosing a new companion…especially if it’s one you’re rescuing.
Interesting little cross here – a dog thought to be Golden/Lab, though I believe she was BC/Golden, because she was predominantly black and had a very long coat. This bitch was mated a few times to a purebred Golden retriever. There were a few gold puppies, but it was abount 75% black, long-haired pups with white chests overall. Of these puppies, quite a few took after their mother – one is actually a hobby farmer’s shepherd.
My own dog out of that pair looks mostly like the dog at the top of the page.
Okay, now I am intrigued! We have been told our rescue dog could be golden retriever/border collie cross but after reading your blog I can’t see how it is possible. I am posting links to pictures of her. Any guesses? She is around a year old now and is approx. 55 pounds.
Below is a pic of her soon after she came to our home last May.
This one was taken Dec. 2010.
Just found a close up of her face…don’t know if this helps.
I just wanted to say I found this really fascinating! I have a dog who I keep thinking looks and acts like a BC/Golden retriever mix but everyone says she must be a mix with Flat coat because she’s almost all black (just a bit of white at the haunches and a few other specks here and there). She reminds me a lot of the second dog you posted up there.
This is her:
I think she’s a BC/golden retriever.
That’s like the ultimate dog sport animal.
Or like a flat-coat that likely won’t die of cancer before it’s 8 years old.
She’s going to live forever, so says me. ;-)
And she’s doing great at agility!
Great post. I appreciate your detailed explanation of the (rationale and the) odds— that and the looks of the mixes along these lines convince me that the folks telling me this combination is the likely source of my dog are right.
Hi guys. We lost our dog after 16.5 years last September. We believe she was a Border Collie/Golden Retriever mix. She was mostly honey colored with white chest and paws, and white line down her nose. Some black hair in her tail. I can’t tell you how much she’s missed. Anyway, we were trying to really pinpoint the mix in an attempt to find another dog with her demeanor. Does what I describe sound like anything you all might recognize or shed some light on? Anybody know where you might find dogs for adoption like this?? Thanks, joe jkoizen@gmail.com
new to this site while living in Sydney Aust the local fllyball club was mostly red or choc BC never really having interest in BC had no idea where they came from very interestinng.
My love is spaniels I have 2 EC my next dog will be a working Clumber anyone have any info on them?
Hard to find a working Clumber outside of the UK.
guys i read your blog and i was confuse of the breed of my dog her name is seagull….she is 4 year old and she is a small dog and she looks like you’r pix sample dog….i don’t know if it is BC or what…
this is her photo
it was taken September last year
waiting for reply
paul from phil.
I can’t see the photo.
I also have a Golden/Border Collie Mix, she is Black with white marks, her sisters are: one black all over, one black with brown marks, two are white with about three big black spots and one of them is tricolored. All people we meet are asking, if she is a Bernhardiner… :-) i don’t think she looks like them
interesting post. Our two year old shelter mix looks very much like the dog in the top photo, only he has slightly lighter bone. He has drop ears, a medium- length wavy black coat, large white spot on chest and white hairs on toes, abdomen and chin. He loves to chase and be chased, and never wrestles with other dogs, yet he really enjoys being with them. He creeps up slowly, and gives ‘eye’ to other dogs when they are coming towards us on a walk, very much like a border collie, and sometimes lies flat on the sidewalk and stares at them, which sometimes alarms the owner. I have to reassure them that he is very dog-friendly.
I will try to include a photo of him, so you can tell me what you think he is. He was advertised through his rescue as a flat-coat mix, but I seriously doubted that immediately.
I have a golden retriever/ border collie cross. She is the size of a collie, White face markings and White socks and tail tip like the collie BUT she is pale gold in colour as the retriever. Basically she is beautiful and not a bit of black on her. Just goes to show that the blond gene does come through. She has the speed and agility of a collie but the temperament of a retriever.
The only way that can happen is if the border collie happened to be carrying the gold (“Australian red”) coloration, which is pretty uncommon.
A lot of collie/golden retriever crosses aren’t. The vast majority of BC/Golden crosses are going to be black dogs that look a lot like flat-coated retrievers.
A gold dog with collie-ish ears is most likely going to be a golden retriever crossed with something else, which is normally gold with prick ears.
This is simple Mendelian inheritance.
Going to pick up a border collie x golden retriever pup in two weeks time. Saw both mum and dad and can fully vouch for the fact that all the puppies were very black with the occasional white toe tip or chest marking. Seemed so strange to see a pile of ten black pups with such a golden mum and black and white dad. Although this litter was never meant to be, our vets opinion is that you couldn’t wish for a better cross in terms of temperament and personality. Will post pictures of pup when she arrives.
We just recused a puppy, who is mostly golden, some white, reddish tan, and some black, wanted to know what type of temperment are you who own these dogs seeing?
That could really be anything. Those colors are very common in dogs from a variety of lineages.
I have a dog who I’m about 90% sure is a BC/GR mix (doesn’t look like yours though as she’s solid black and greatly resembles the second dog in this post). Her temperament? Sweet, calm, doesn’t bark much, very smart and easy to train, has enough energy for hikes in the hoods and agility but is not out of control. She loves everyone, loves other dogs, loves the cats upstairs, good with children. She’s just an amazing dog!
Very interesting site here… And now I’m a little confused about our Chewie. The parents were BC/ Golden Retriever. Unless they showed us dogs that weren’t her parents. She does grab onto the hind legs of our other dog, (and me when we’re running). She also loves the water and very much looks like my uncles GR at times (especially in the summer when she seems to overheat easily). Any thoughts on our Chewie?
http://patrickivan.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/chewie/
Her coat has grown a little longer and a little wavey at points since in these photos. She’s about 50lbs. Such a sweet dog. Territorial, friendly, independant, yet very snuggly at bed time. Best dog I’ve ever had!
There is a very rare gold color in border collies, but if the border collie in the mix isn’t carrying it, it’s impossible for that dog to be of that cross. Most border collies in the US are either black or liver in color. When crossed with a golden retriever, almost all of them will look like flat-coated retrievers. Black is dominant. Solid color is dominant. Drop-ears (in general) are dominant. (There is a recessive black in some herding breeds. It’s not been confirmed in border collies.)
You can always get fence jumpers with mixed breed litters, and it’s possible (and more likely) that this litter had multiple fathers. Golden retrievers can exhibit pointing behavior that is similar to a border collie stalking.
https://retrieverman.net/2012/11/04/rabbits-in-the-brush-pile/
I’m not disputing the GR- stalking- just haven’t seen it myself. It is an interesting thing to watch Chewie when she does it. She’s crouched so low practically crawling like a stalking cat. It’s funny because we have another mix with a BC that exhibits absolutely no BC traits. More like boxer. They are so night and day. It’s really- interesting to see how dominant traits play in mixed breeds.
More of curiosity, I’ve asked to see a pic of the BC parent of Chewie. I honestly can’t recall if she was B&W or red or red merle. We seem to have a lot of those in our area (simcoe country Ontario)- maybe there are some breeders.
How long have you been researching the science behind breed colourations and traits? It sounds really quite interesting and I’m actually going to look into myself to see if my mother (who breeds Shetland Sheepdogs CKC reg.) has a methodical approach vs instinctual approach to breeding.
I don’t go by “instinct” or “gut.”
I’ve been looking into color inheritance in dogs ever since I saw a golden retriever that was bred by brindle boxer gave birth to a litter of 10 black puppies.
The golden retriever in that photo actually points or rather sets like a setter.
Holy crap of a coincidence. Three years later and we’re going to look at them this week! My wife got a hold of them and we’re actually going to look at getting a wee one for Chewie!
Our Katie is a year old. Do you folks think she is a Golden Retriever/Border Collie? Excellent swimmer, Frisbee catcher, retriever of sticks and balls. Energetic around people and other dogs. Loves all people, children, and dogs. Very soft coat. Cuddler. About 45 lbs. Thick white chest. Tail is fanned.
Im curious about the hybrid behavior . Should the golden be predominant or the BC? I ask because we adopted our puppy Sami about 40 days ago and he looks exactly like these dogs.His looked like a golden retriever..Sami has a very smooth longish black coat, white chest and some white on his chin and paws too..he also has that monkey BC face too..haha He is very energetic and intelligent ( for his own good) but we don’t know if he will calm down with time or not…If he has more of a BC temperament in the end I will take him to puppy kindergarten :)
I really would assume that depends on the dog. I have a BC/GR mix and she’s fairly calm and relaxed most of the time. But others may be moer high strung and BC-ish.
I would take your dog to puppy kindergarten anyway. It’s much needed socialization that they need.
Thank you for your reply Crysania. Sami started puppy kindergarten 2 weeks ago and he is way better to handle now. Also, we get all kind of compliments on how good are his manners around other dogs and people in general. He is going to become an excellent therapy dog :)
So, can an F1 golden cross be mahogany, like sn Irish setter? I have what i think is a golden and newfoundland cross (i am assuming it would have to be a bronze newfie). He has a white patch on his chest, is very big-boned with a large head. The stop is fairly pronounced (similar to that of a pyrenees, nut not as strong as a newfie). He is a
very fit 90 pounds (could easily carry 100 or so if we let him). I have seen of golden/newfie mixes that look similar, but they are almost always black (many have the white chest blaze). But, given that most newfies are black, i guess that is not surprisingly. I just cant see any way he has irish setter in him. Guess i am just trying to narrow down the possible routes by one could get what looks like a very large golden in terms of body and hair length, but has mahogany red coat, is bigger than most make goldens I have seen, and has a very large maculine head. Thank you!
Here is a link to his pic: https://m.facebook.com/home.php?refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Fcheckpoint%2F&_rdr#!/home.php?refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Fcheckpoint%2F&mds=%2Fsharer-dialog.php%3Fsid%3D4435732923898&mdf=1&__user=1006450610
I have a brindle mix. Im thinking she is a retreiver collie mix due to her temperament and how she acts. Exactly like a collie!
[…] itt egy érdekes cikk, angolul. A lényege, hogy a border collie-t és a golden retrievert azért akarták keresztezni, […]
This is really interesting to read. I have what I thought for sure was a GR/BC mix, but since she has the coloring of a golden, she must not be mixed with BC. Her coat is very interesting though,because if you look up close there are many black hairs mixed in with the gold, all throughout her coat, but just looking at her she looks all gold. She does have a decent amount of black on the tips of her ears and at the base of her tail. As a puppy, she also had a black stripe down her back.
I adopted her from a GR rescue and they didn’t know what she was mixed with. I began to assume BC as she got older because she can jump like crazy and gets the zoomies around the living room every night and also has some of the slightly neurotic behaviors sometimes attributed to them.
Here are a few pics. She’s 54 lbs now (15 months old). As I said, you can’t see the black mixed in with the gold, but it’s there.
As a puppy:
Any chance she is a GR/BC mix? Aside from an Aussie, I can’t think of another breed that can jump like that and is that size.