The modern day Clumber spaniel is a very coarsely built dog. The eyelid condition known as ectropion is considered a breed trait.
Not all Clumber spaniels throughout its history were like this dog.
One of the most bizarre comments I ever received on this blog appeared on a post refers to the Clumber spaniel that lost its BOB win at Crufts this year after failing its mandatory health check:
I breed Clumbers in the US and in our standard, their eye should come to a V on the bottom lid…in other words, ectropion!… I have seen the bitch and her eyes are fine. The Ophthalmologist’s finding wer drom a much more though exam then the Crufts vet did and would have mentioned any lid problems, if they existed.
This is called cognitive dissonance.
Ectropion is a real health and welfare issue, but this breeder has declared it okay because the standard says so!
This is a winning Clumber spaniel in the UK. It has the breed feature known as ectropion. Rational people would denounce anyone who intentionally bred a defect like this. They would be even more incensed that a breed club would make it a point of excellence in a breed standard.
Breed standards were not written by God. They aren’t even divinely inspired.
They aren’t holy scriptures that cannot be revised or added to.
They are written by humans. Many of these humans are so full of dog show dazzle that they cannot reason properly, and when it comes to revising standards, a lot of politics goes on. Very often these standard revisions are nothing more than attemps to codify new fancy points that have been rewarded in the ring.
Standard for the AKC Clumber spaniel standard has some very contradictory language on ectropion. It does include the nonsense about the “v” on the lower eyelid, but then it states that ectropion is fault:
The eyes are dark amber in color, large, soft in expression, and deep set in either a diamond shaped rim or a rim with a “V” on the bottom and a curve on the top. Some haw may show but excessive haw is undesirable. Prominent or round shaped eyes are to be penalized. Excessive tearing or evidence of entropion or ectropion is to be penalized. Ears are broad on top with thick ear leather. The ears are triangular in shape with a rounded lower edge, set low and attached to the skull at approximately eye level.
Ectropion is defined by the US National Library of Medicin as “the turning out of the eyelid (usually the lower eyelid) so that the inner surface is exposed.”
That’s what that “V” on the lower eyelid is!
So this breed standard says that a dog must have ectropion to be a fine example of its breed, but then it says that ectropion is a fault.
Talk about stupid!
The truth is that Clumber spaniels haven’t always had this feature.
One of the biggest lies ever told about this breed is that it hasn’t changed in hundreds of years.
Here’s the way Stonehenge had them depicted in The Dog in Health and Disease (1859):
Now, these dogs are quite different from that modern version, but even more recent individuals in the breed haven’t been ectropion-laden monstrosities.
These following images can all be found on Pai’s Dog Breed Historical Album on Photobucket:
1898 Clumber spaniel.
1898 Clumber spaniel.
1898 Clumber spaniel.
1901 Clumber spaniel.
1903 Clumber spaniel.
All that would have to be done is for the breed clubs to drop this nonsense about the V on the lower eyelid, and these dogs would be very similar to these dogs from over a century ago.
Now, it is true that when one peruses the images in Pai’s Photobucket album, there are some dogs with droopy eyelids.
I don’t know why these dogs were preferred over the ones with the tighter eyelids. It seems to me that is nothing more than the idiotic caprice of the fancy that picked upon this defective feature.
Dog showing has intentionally selected for an unhealthy feature in this breed, and it’s a good thing that the Kennel Club, the main registry in the Clumber’s country of origin, has decided to take this feature seriously.
The Dale Gribbles of the dog fancy continue to make up crap about this breed. They also are spreading easily falsified lies about the health of the dog that got disqualified at Crufts this year.
But it really doesn’t matter.
The facts are notoriously stubborn things.
Clumber spaniels didn’t always have ectropion as a breed feature.
And for the breed’s long-term health and welfare, its fanciers must embrace a back to the future breeding program that produces nice looking dogs with normal eyelids.
And if they don’t like it, then we can call them out for being obstructionist dinosaurs who don’t care about the welfare of their dogs.
I certainly am going to do just that.
You forgot the comment by the Basset vet explaining that ectropion is not the same as drooping eyelids.(http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2012/03/buzzed-lightyear-dqd-basset.html?showComment=1331816723072#c1291224905206983791) I guess technically you can have diamond eyes without ectropion.(http://i.imgur.com/adoU6.png)
From the same textbook:
“Most forms of Ect /OPF in the dog are congenital and breed-related or hereditary. The genetic transmission is most likely polygenic. Some breed standards tolerate or even promote the condition. Breed prescriptions vary from: “not showing much haw” (Sussex Spaniel), “some haw showing but without excess” (Clumber Spaniel); “the haw may sometimes show without excess” (Basset, Artresian Normand); “the lower lid shows a certain looseness” (Grand Bleu de Gascoigne); “red (cryptic description of inflamed conjunctiva) of lower lid appears, though not excessively” (Basset Hound); and in optima forma too: “a strongly hanging lower lid, showing the red conjunctiva” (St. Hubertus Hound = Bloodhound), and “a small angular fold on the lower lids with the haws only slightly visible as well as a small fold on the upper lids are permitted” (St. Bernhard). Strangely enough, many kennel clubs do not accept breeding from entropion- or ectropion-affected dogs in their rules.”
The difference between ectropion and oversized palpebral fizzure is a technicality.
Note that in the text you are refering to they are treated as the same abnormality!
PL
A comment by a vet on the Clumber Spaniel Club of America Genetic Health Committee:(http://www.clumbers.org/AboutClumbers/LetterForVet.php)
“Ectropion is also sometimes seen, but care must be taken not to confuse the normal, diamond shape of the lower lid with ectropion. A properly shaped Clumber lid will often be looser than other breeds. Haw often shows. The proper lid, while loose, should not roll in or out, but drooping in and of itself is not unusual.”
And that contradicts what that breeder just wrote!
Cognitive dissonance is everywhere!
What Dodo says is accurate, as is the quote from the veterinarian.
Far too often there is confusion between haw (nictitating membrane, conjunctiva, and the inner surface of the lower eyelid. this is not “merely semantics”, it is a matter of being accurate. They are not the same, they are separate tissues. If the inner surface of the lower eyelid is exposed because of eversion of the eyelid, that’s ectropion. In this case, often the conjunctiva is exposed as well. Simply having the haw visible is not, in itself, ectropion. Many completely normal dogs will have haw visible when they are tired, or irritating substances have contacted the eye.
Unfortunately, most fanciers don’t seem to be aware of the distinctions, and take statements such as permission for “a certain degree of looseness” as carte blanche to accept or promote extremes.
Dodo was posted this as a sign of cognitive dissonance on behalf this veterinarian.
Peter Lundin, who is also a vet, says it’s nothing more than a technicality. (He also commented on this post!)
It’s lawyer ball.
I will say that just an exposed haw isn’t as much of a problem as ectropion.
But I don’t think that’s the issue being discussed here.
Oops, should have had a close-parenthesis after “(nictitating membrane)” !
When did they start docking the tails, I wonder?
I honestly don’t know.
I think this dog, name “Quaille” and listed as an English water spaniel, is actually very similar to or the same as the breed we call the Clumber spaniel:
The painting is by Henry Bernard Chalon, and it was painted in 1797.
This dog has a docked tail.
These dogs are supposedly Sir Walter Scott’s: https://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/supposedly-sir-walter-scotts-gun-dogs-and-terrier/
The spaniels are undocked and very Clumbery, though perhaps a bit closer to the Welsh springer and the old working Blehheim spaniel.
See I would have called those dogs in the paintings docked. They have the half-tail dock that the working and pet type Springers around here have. I know they’re only paintings but they look just exactly like what I see on a regular basis. Spaniel tails are naturally longer than that and don’t end so abruptly with a square end on the feathering like the one named Quaille or that little whorl with abrupt taper like the Scott one. The Sussex is clearly docked to about one-third.
Very subjective, I suppose.