I have never bought that Neapolitan mastiffs represented a relic population of Roman Molossus dogs. I do agree that mastiff type dogs are pretty old, but making claims about dogs based upon whether they superficially resemble dogs that appear on old artifacts is a very dubious proposition. (My personal favorite claim is that the Ancient Egyptians had dachshunds because one can find short-legged dogs depicted in wall art from that time period.)
So what was a Neapolitan mastiff before it became a fancy show dog?
Well, the old name for this breed in Engliahs was “Italian bulldog,” a name that I initially thought was dubious. These dogs do superficially look like bulldogs, but they are much more like mastiffs than bulldogs.
It turns out that the name “Italian bulldog” wasn’t a dubious proposition. These mastiffs were used as farm dogs- most specifically as livestock guardians that watched over herds of cattle.
My source for this bit of information comes from the 1908 Diplomatic and Consular Reports from the British Foreign Office:
The Neapolitan mastiff is a heavy and useful cattle dog. He has a fine smooth coat and is generally brindled or black. He is kind by nature, but easily made savage if he is tied up or ill-treated. His original use was to go out with the cattle and goats and protect them from the wolves which in olden days were very common all over the district. Then, as now, he guarded the homestead at night (pg. 15).
The dog wasn’t a bulldog in the same way that the English used them, but it isn’t that different from the way the Southern farm bulldogs were used in the United States. Farm bulldogs were (and still are) used to guard stock and children to protect them from predators of all types.
So the Neapolitan mastiff’s original function wasn’t as a Roman war dog or a fighter in the Colosseum.
It was a type of livestock guardian dog– the indigenous livestock guardian dog of southern Italy.
It’s a lot less romantic original function than the one that connects this dog to the Roman Empire.
But it’s not unexpected.
Italians are not Romans. Italy has had a history since the fall of Rome.
And Italy itself didn’t exist as unified nation until the late nineteenth century.
The southern part of what is now Italy has been under the control of so many different political entities and royal houses that all sorts of different influences have come into the region.
A Neapolitan mastiff never existed as a closed registry breed until after the Second World War. The farm dogs of southern Italy were constantly getting new blood from different regions. There was a selection for strong guardian instincts but also docility toward the family and stock.
This also goes a long way to explaining why many early imports of Neapolitan mastiff to the United States often bonded very strongly to their owners and hated everyone else. This is exactly what one would want in a livestock guardian dog. Although North America livestock guardian dogs have been selected for a more docile temperament, those from the Old World often had tendencies toward hyper bonding toward stock and family and high aggression toward outsiders.
It also suggests that the traditional spiked collar that these dogs wear has more to do with protecting the neck from attacks from wolves than anything else. The same goes for the cropped ears. Many livestock guardian breeds have cropped ears and wear spiked collars to assist in fending off attacks from wolves. Spiked collars prevent the wolves from biting down on the neck, and the nearly amputated ears don’t provide anything for the wolves to grab.
I’ve not seen anyone recommending Neapolitan mastiffs for this purpose. The fancy show dog is probably not hardy enough to withstand rustic conditions, though the dogs might be useful on a small farm where they can be observed more closely.
***
In my research on Lord Byron’s Newfoundland, I came across another dog he owned.
In 1819, Byron procured a “bulldog” from Italy. This dog was named Moretto.
This particular dog accompanied Bryon on his ill-fated decision to join the Greeks in their war of independence against the Ottomans,
And I don’t know if anyone has considered this possibility, but it may have been that Moretto actually was part of the landrace that gave us the Neapolitan mastiff.
I’ve seen that the Newfoundland people have taken the story of Boatswain and run with it almost as far it could go. Never mind that Boatswain wasn’t anything like the dogs we call Newfoundlands today.
But if Newfoundland dog people can make hay with Boatswain, I don’t see why the Neapolitan mastiff people aren’t making hay with Moretto.
Moretto was probably very much like the rough Neapolitan mastiffs before they became show dogs. Perhaps, he was much more like them than Boatswain was like today’s shaggy giant Newfoundland.
But people are selective in what romantic stories they want to believe.
The fact that Moretto was always described as a bulldog may have thrown everyone off.
Of course, the Neapolitan mastiff was always called the Italian bulldog in English until very recently.
I can’t imagine there ever being true English bulldog types in Italy until the foundation of the modern dog fancy, so it seems to me much more likely that he was a Neapolitan mastiff.
Actually, I’m impressed!!! However, the Neo in its present form is no more capable of killing wolves than the AKC Old English Mastiff. These are but Monstosities of the show/pet world. The Cane Courso is better known for its consistancy of type in bringing in the herds of cattle and guard duty of the farm. We see the same process of the Johnson American Bulldog, which had become yet another show/pet monstosity. Observe photos of the Cane Courso of the true farm type in comparison to the White English still used to guard farms and livestock from packs of wild dogs that threaten farms in South USA. The true Cane Courso of Sically appears as a White English Bulldog with a paint job; or is the White English Bulldog a variation of the Cane Courso? Early imports of Mastiff type war dogs into North America included Alanos of Spain and Scially, as well as even the Irish Wolfhound, (a chase dog used to kill wolves which was the early Presa war dog type of Roman-British times). As far as war dogs and pit/arena dogs and livestock guarding type mastiffs or bulldogs, as we call them in South USA, this is all the same history!!! The Alans were Herdsmen/Warriors of the Caucasus – not Hunters/Gatherers. Other breeds that fit the Alaunt/Alano breed-type is the Kuvasz of Hungry, used to guard cattle and used in the 15th century to hunt wild boar. In 1550AD, Dr Casius of England writes the job of the mastiff or bandog is to guard and protect farms. The test of pit/arena fighting is the test of the LGD’s abilty to fight the wolf. Thus, bull-baiting, the pinning of the bull in England, was a test more of the Staghound than the mastiffs that fought bear. The Staghound was no war dog. By royal decree iE
Sorry, got cut off….By royal decree of England in the Middle Ages, the Mastiff was to only be bred by the farmers. Anyone wishing to learn of the true mastiff type should therefor seek those used by peasent farmers/cattlemen who still use them to work cattle and fight preditor. One should not seek those of the show/pet world.
Interesting posts by Ray Lane.
I love Cane Corsos, Presa Canarios, Boerbols, Tosa Inus and all those eastern European and Turkish Livestock Guardian Dogs. They are still employed in the work they were meant to do.
Met an Indian Punjabi couple on the trail on Saturday with their 4 Dogo Argentinos. I just said wow to the opportunity. Handsome dogs these Dogos with people I could talk to in my mother tongue (Hindi / Urdu / punjabi mix). They also mentioned having a Neapolitan they left in their backyard for that day. Thats what I say a life I was meant to live, but couldn’t.
Needless to mention, my Kuvasz boy had an awesome time playing with two younger dogos.
I’ll soon be the owner of an estrela mountain dog. Another of the stock guardians. They’re another breed who can still be found doing their original job and who haven’t much been changed by those who show them.
I’ve enjoyed reading the above on Neos and the subsequent comments, interesting stuff, I love breed origin stories both the fact and fiction.
Before I forget, Fila Brasilieros are super impressive too, but certainly looking less intimidating due their bloodhoundish looks than what they actually are.
The original Filas looked more like the Cao de Fila Sao Migal aka Azore Cattle Dog. Compare to the Cuban Bloodhounds before the US Army paid high prices for 33 specimens, thus causing other countries and breeders to create bigger and more impressive looking dogs – despite their inability to travel through jungles South America or swamps of South USA.
I’ve always wondered about those.
There’s another ‘original use’ that we don’t hear much of . . .
Historians write about mastiff-type ‘war dogs’, bred to attack ‘enemies’. Coren, S. (2002: The Pawprints of History) writes at length of Colombus’ use of such dogs against the Indians, and of subsequent cruel use by Ponce de Leon, Balboa, Cortez, De ‘Soto, … Pizarro . . .to name a few.
Are such dogs occasional offshoots of various guardian dog strains? Or does their blood lineage contribute to one or another branch of the mollasser family tree? Are there living remnants of ‘war dog’ strains.
I would love mastiffs if they were healthier . . . . but want no part of breeds deliberately bred for human aggression. My guess is that the Spanish / Portuguese land races were more likely to preserve ‘war dog’ traits . . . but I’m guessing. Has anyone studied this systematically?
keep in mind that the Romans (and the Roman Empire did include “Italy” as well as large parts of France, Spain and Britian) didn’t breed “war dogs”. Just as the modern military “K9” is co-opted from herding dogs, it’s likely that the Roman soldier co-opted dogs from farms (since prior to Marius, the Roman soldier actually had to own farmland) and other dogs they happened to come across. The use of dogs against large game would have been known from accounts from Egypt and Persia. While direct decent of a “breed” from any ancient source is unlikely, the assumption that those going from one country to another wouldn’t take their dogs with them (and that then dogs would do what dogs do), is unrealistic. Obviously, dogs from ancient times are “here” — and landrace selection for form/function would have preserved any useful characteristics some visiting dog provided. The evidence is that travel was much more extensive than previously thought, both during and after the Roman empire. Probably a Roman would have recognized a livestock guardian dog up to the creation of a conformation standard — and the subsequent transmogrification of breeds for “aesthetic” purposes.
While dogs were simply taken from farms in Roman times, as they were in England in the Middle Ages, the nomadic barbarian tribes of the steppes of Euro-Asia who domesticated the horse, are in fact most resposible for the spread of the Alaunt/Alano type. But, such nomadic lifestyle not only interbred dogs – but also man. Tracing tribe to tribe and intermarriages accross Euro-Indo-Asia and into Africa, those known as the Caucasian Race can trace their roots back to this central area of the steppes. The Egyptions, Hindu, etc, are of the Caucasian Race which derives its name from the Caucasus Mt where the opening between these ranges is still in control by the decendants of the Alans – the Ossations.
“From the close of the 13th century untill the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713, Sically was ruled by princes of Aragon and by the Spanish crown.”
The Lincoln Library
The Alans had an outpost in Albania and even fought as Soilders for Hire for the Roman Empire. Albani boders Epirus of Molossi. While Molossi was conqured and enslaved by Rome, no such happening with the Alans. According to Ossation (Alans) history, Rome failed to conqure them about 100BC. The dogs of the Alans were used to herd/guard their livestock, and to plunder, as their way of life. The Spanish Conquests did bring dogs of Sicially as well as Spain, and were used on my ancestors, the Natives of Florida in USA. Spain lowered its flag in 1819 at the Forts in Florida, but their decendants remained mainly as cattlemen known as the Crackers. As late as 1989, no white man dare step foot south of Kississmi Florida, as the Spanish Cracker cattlemen ruled this land.
The true old type American Bulldog, often called White English, is not English at all, but decends from these war dogs used with cattle, as did the Alans in the past.
“The Corsican and Spanish bulldogs closely resemble the English breed, but are larger.”
The History of the Dog, Martin, 1845
This is the ancient Mastiff war dog type – NOT A BREED- a type that differs from the Dogo and Scott type American Bulldog of today.
“Subsequently, further north, Ridinger and Riedel illustrated this type too, and with Tempesta, Snyders and Desporters, show the difference between a running mastiff, exemplified today by the Great Dane, and the killing mastiffs, now represented by for example the Neapolitian Mastiff and Perro de Presas of Spain.”
Hancock, MBE
Since only about 2% in USA are still farmers, this original funtion of our old type Bulldogs is nearly forgotten.
This particular topic has become very informative indeed. I have learnt a lot. Thank you everybody.
I would just like to correct a sentence in Ray Lane’s excellent post above:
“Most of the Egyptians, northern Indians and Pakistanis (i.e. North and Northwestern part of Asian sub-continent), etc, are of the Caucasian Race.”
Btw, Pakistanis have their own Molosser breed – bully kutta – that is considered to be descendants of the war dogs of Alexander the Greek (and the invader of peaceful lands ;-)). This dog breed has reached the UK, and Canada seems to be the next on card.
As a matter of fact, Alexander the Great’s tiny 13 year conquests can not even compare to a life of the Nomadic Herdsmen known as the Barbarian tribes like the Alans who conqured their way to China where the Great Wall was built to keep them out. The Alans intermarried with the Mongols and gave rise to a new tribe called the Huns (as proven by DNA) who drove the Alans as far as France and Spain to help cause The Fall of Rome. The Huns mainly settled Hungry where the Kuvasz is found.
The Caucasian Race of man comes in many variations as do the landrace of dogs. To think migrations left the dog behind is not even plausible, especially of the shepherds/herdsmen who required them for their herds. Interbreeding of dogs took place as well as intermarriage of people. Most plausible was the selection of the lighter dog during migration, thus leaving the larger dogs in their homelands.
“The progress of the northern mastiff parallels the migration of a variety of fierce, nomadic people originally from the Turkistan areas of southern Russia. During the millenia before Christ these nomads migrated east into western China, conquring as they went. Their mastiffs were lighter in body, perhaps because the wandering lifestyle required a nomadic dog.”
The Atlas of Dog Breeds of the World
Are we to think the Mastiffs were not brought to the New World with those that migrated here? A rather pointless argument……
“As the political winds changed, the nomads migrated back to the West. A group called the Alans arrived in eastern Europe five or six centuries BC to settle what is now Albania, and others arrived in waves around 400AD.”
The Atlas of Dog Breeds of the World
The original Molossus was and still is – a seperate family from the Alaunt/Alano, despite any crosses. For example, the Cane Courso used to drive and defend cattle and farms is of the Alaunt/Alano family, but the Sarplaninac is of seperate origins. This due mainly to migrations and interbreeding along the path. Let us look at the description of the typical Alaunt/Alano type introduced into Epirus of the time, as it differs from the Sar of the area once known as Illyria, now called Macedonia of Yugoslavia. The region of Epirus is but a central location of dogs brought from Illyria, the Alans, and others that were interbred with the dogs of the Hellenes, thus the name Molossus is more than one family of dogs….
“The author Marius Terentius Varro, who died in the year 27 B.C., reports in his book on agriculture of two kinds of dogs that were bred in this country. The first were hunting dogs and the second large herding dogs, who effectively protect sheep and goats. From his description of these herding dogs we quote: The lower jaw is undershot. From it grows two teeth, one on the left, the other on the right, which are only slightly exposed…These dogs have large heads and drooping ears, a strong nape and neck…The tail is thick, the bark sonorous, the jaws large; the color usually is white, so that it can be distinguished from predators at night.”
Fighting Dog Breeds, Dr Dieter Fleig
These herding dogs most plausibly derived from the Herdsmen/Warriors – the Alans. This typical Alaunt/Alano type is seen in what we call White English used to guard farms and livestock of South USA, despite the fact this breed developed from various imports, starting mainly with Spain…
“The Molossus belong to the tribe of the Illyrians, who invaded northern Greece from the North around 1200B.C., drove out the Hellens, and occupied Epirus in their place. The descendants of the Illyrian Epirians are the modern Albanians.”
Die Rassen des Hundes, Studer, 1894
And, here is the confusion, as different peoples and dogs arrived in this same area, yet different type dogs still remain today….
“The aboriginal people of Albania, on the southwest coast of the Balken peninsula, where they have lived since very ancient times. They are probably descendants of the earliest Ayran immigrants into Europe. Their language seems to be Ayran, resembling the Slavic rather than the Greek.”
The Lincoln Library
As we know, the Ayrans are a Caucasian tribe that extend to the Hindu of India.
“A family of peoples assumed to be of kindred race because their languages show common characteristics. The original home of this race is thought to have been either northern Europe or Asia. They had already domesticated the horse by 2500B.C., at which time they first appear in history….The race is often known as Indo-European or Indo-Germanic.” (While migration was always common, the horse sped up this process – lighter dogs were then chosen to keep up with horsemen like the Alans).
The Lincoln Library
It has been advanced by Dr Carl Semencic that the undershot jaw of the Bulldog originated first by the Alans who had conqured their way to China, interbred with the Chinese dogs and returned with this trait.
“The most distinct trait of the northern dog was the first appearance of the brachycephalic (undershot) jaw. Whether this was a spontaneous trait (a mutation) or came from crosses with Chinese dogs is unknown.”
The Atlas of Dog Breeds of the World
Whether outcrossed with the Chinese dogs or not, it is still a mutation, one that remains today even in the APBT. However, recent crosses with Chinese stock, such as the Pug, has not proved benificial. Perhaps it proved benificial in ancient times as the dogs were required to return via a long migration back to Euro-Asia, and were required to fight or die. Thus refinement of the fittiest would only arrive, making use of this mutation. This selection process had continued for over two thousand years before the reintroduction of the Chinese breeds. This became known by many cynologiest as the modified brachycephalic dog. However, brachycephlic refers to head type which is short, and the correct head type of the Alaunt/Alano is long. As the UKC standard for the APBT calls for a “brick-like” head, yet any old school pitman will tell you that a slightly undershot jaw is quite common in the game APBT, as it is in our old farm Bulldogs. (It is actually most useful in breaking bones to defend cattle of the wolf – not in holding or pinning as supposed by so many who have no first hand experiance with fighting dogs).
“By the Middle Ages the racier, undershot ‘mastiffs’ were known throughout Europe as Alaunts or Alains.”
The Atlas of Dog Breeds of the World
During the Spanish Conquests and Mission Period (occupation) the Alaunts of Spain and Portugal came in three variations, the Mastin, Alano, and Lebrel. Alaunt type Mastiffs were inported from England from 1556 to 1649. Alaunt types were imported from Sicially and France, and the combination of these Alaunt types gave rise to our Bulldogs of South USA – to include the APBT.
While the Bullykutta may decend to the few dogs brought back by Alaxanader the Great – though far less plasible than our firece Brindle Bulldogs found along the Desoto Trail of South USA decending St8 from Desot’s Bruno himself. Instead, many of the basic type fierce Brindle type Butcher’s Dogs were brought to guard the forts of the Spanish found along the De Soto trail over the centuries. The likelyhood of Bruno in the peds of my Brindle Bulldogs is pointless to even consider.
I would just like to correct a sentence in Ray Lane’s excellent post above:
“Most of the Egyptians, northern Indians and Pakistanis (i.e. North and Northwestern part of Asian sub-continent), etc, are of the Caucasian Race.”
No need to correct me. I agree. The very concept of hunting wild boar with the knife by the Spanish Herdsmen originated with the Sighthound Hunters of the Hot Desert Sun. The Sighthound is the ancient Big Game Hunter – the Mastiff is the ancient war dog used to guard the herds from the wolf and enemy.
This following link of migrations according to DNA is far too difficult for me to commit to understanding at this time (I’d rather wait for a complete camparison to dog breeds as well, but may be of interest to some….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a1_(Y-DNA)
“The Medes, Albanians, Gelonians and Hyrcanians, as the various breeds of Assyrian mastiffs were called in after times, came from the north of Persia and the wide districts which extended between the Caucasus and the shores of the Caspian Sea, and there appears to have been something about this wild region which enabled its hounds to retain their supremacy for long ages afterwards.”
De Canibus, Dog and Hound in Antiquity, by RHA Merlen, 1971
The Hyrcanians are the Indians, decendants of the Ayrans….
“In the Rig-Veda, the ancient Sanskirt religious writings treasured by the Hindues, of two thousand years BC, there are accounts of ‘boar-desiring’ huge watchdogs, brindle and brown, broad of nostril, ‘man-observing’ and ‘road-watching’, very strong, fierce guardians.”
Hancock, MBE
Most likely, these Mastiffs were brought by the Ayrans, with cattle…..
“It will be seen that the legitimate uses of the mastiff among the Britons were to defend their homes and property, and also to assist in driving cattle, while in times of war they afforded a guard for the women and chariots. The Romans fought animals in their amphitheatres, and from their savage fondness for such sights as gladiatorial shows and pitting animals against each other in all probability arose the introduction of baiting animals with dogs in Britain. The antiquity of such sport is shown in Pliny’s account of the Albanian dog that successfully baited the boar, lion, and elephant before Alexander the Great some 300 B.C.”
The History of the Mastiff, Wynn, 1886
It is this original use of driving cattle and defending the herds/family that is the legitimate use of Mastiffs, as they developed from ancient times.
“Hyrcania was south-east of the Caspian Sea, where today the modern states of Iran, Turkmenistan and Afghanistan meet, and was part of Parthia in the Persion Empire.”
Hancock, MBE
The Persian Empire predated Alexander the Great, as did the Assyrian Mastiff, a combination of the Sumerian Hounds and Hyrcanian or Indian Mastiffs with the Hounds of the Alans – thus the Assyrian Mastiffs were of the Alaunt/Alano Landrace – not the Molosser…. .
“Herodotus tells of Cyrus the Great, founder of the Persian Empire who, about 550B.C., recieved a Mastiff as a gift from the King of Albania. Cyrus matched the dog against another and also set it against a bull. But the Mastiff was meek, so Cyrus, in disguest, had it killed.”
AKC (American Kennel Club)
The dog was meek as it is a Shepherd’s Mastiff used to defend cattle…..
“News of this reception of his gift came back to the King of Albania. He sent messengers with another Mastiff – a bitch – to Cyrus, telling him that a Mastiff was no ordinary cur and that it scorned to notice such common creatures as a Persian dog or a bull. He urged him to select a worthy opponent such as a lion or even an elephant. The King of Albania concluded by saying Mastiffs were rare and royal gifts and that he would not send Cyrus another. Whereupon, says Herodotus, the Mastiff bitch was set to attack an elephant and did so with such fury and efficiency that she worried the elephant down to the ground and would have killed it.”
AKC (American Kennel Club)
Few people even today understand this meek nature of fighting dogs among those, like women and children, who do not pose a threat. A fighting dog is not turned on by fear of the hunted, but by combat of the fighter. In hunting big game, like the wild boar, the bay dogs entice the boar to fight them, and the Bulldog comes to their rescue.Hunting Mastiffs are Mastiffs crossed with Hunting Dogs – the Mastiff Proper is a guard dog (fighting dog of man or beast). It is the guardian of women and children as well as livestock.
“In this larger variety, used to guard the doors of the houses of the Britons, and to protect their flocks and herds we can plainly trace the mastiff and its superiority over the true molossus.”
The History of the Mastiff, Wynn, 1886
The Alaunt/Alano is no molossus, but was introduced to the area by the Alans before 300BC….
“It is even more interesting to know that Albania was the land of the people known as Alani an Asiatic race. Also that similar names stand for ‘mastiffs,’ e.g. Alano, Alan, and Alaunt.
AKC (American Kennel Club)
Two Albanias existed, with one that bordered Greece only a small outpost of the Alans…..
“Many people therefore, erroneously think the word molossus necessarily means a mastiff, whereas the Greeks only became acquainted with the true mastiff about the time of the Macedonian conquest at 336B.C., being about 300 years after the breed was cultivated by the Assyrian kings.”
The History of the Mastiff, Wynn, 1886
This being – the Assyrian Mastiff….
“Cyrus pushed the boundaries of his domain westward to the Mediterranean and the AEgean coasts, eastward almost to the Indus. He subdued Babylonia and Lydia….His successor, Cambyses (529-522 B.C.), brought Egypt within his control, and Darius the Great (521-486 B.C.) added Macedonia and Thrace in Europe and the Punjab in India to the Persian dominions.”
The Lincoln Library
While the Alans had already introduced their fierce strain of cattle herding/guarding war dogs to Cyrus, the Alaunt/Alano prototype could be found among these earlier Ayrans that arrived thousands of years before this with their Mastiffs and interbreeding gave rise to the new strain called the Assyrian Mastiff. It should be noted, this process of interbreeding of Mastiff types or strains had been the norm since ancient times, and continues today….(however, few today even known the difference between a Mastiff and a Molosser)…..
“Artifacts depicting broad-mouthed dogs have been found at Lagash and Larsa and dated at two thousand BC. Only in the twentieth century did scholars discover the importance of Sumer as an advanced civilisation; it may well be that the Sumerians migrated southwest from Tartary taking their huge hunting mastiffs with them. Certainly their artifacts of mastiff-like dogs are the oldest ever found. In this part of the world, Persia was a central Asian power the link between east and west.”
Hancock, MBE
It just so happens, the Mastiff is the dog of the conqurers as well as the hedsmen and were thus spead and interbred – making them a breed-type – not a breed. However, it is the Alans that refined the Mastiff strain that arrived in Europe – introduced to Cyrus whose successors aquired Punjab in India centuries before Alexander the Great, and introduced to Mongolia and China, and eventually to Epirus…..
And, I’d like to sum this up with…
“Despite this, scholars with no knowledge of dogs still attribute the origin of the mastiff group to a small isolated group of mountain people in Epirus, rightly famous for a different type of dog.”
Hancock, MBE
The Mastiff and the Molloser are two completly different genetic types or races of dog. Keep in mind, Mr Hancock uses the term – “type” – not breed….
“The Alani were a people of Asiatic, Sarmatia, or Tartary, living in the valleys of the ancient Caucasus. This south-western portion of Asiatic Russia lies between the Caspian and Mare Sarmaticum or Black Sea, and stretches southwards from the high ridges of the Caucasus to the frontiers of Asiatic Turkey and Persia, embracing the ancient Colchis, Albania, and a portion of Armenia, including Mount Ararat, the cradle of the canine as well as human race.”
The History of the Mastiff, Wynn, 1886
There is absolutly no proof, but only idle speculation that Alexander the Great even brought dogs to India. There are no drawings, nor written record of such dogs, except for speculation on the part of a few writers. Therefore, without any tracable artwork or description, I find such a story to be conjectur. In my own speculation, it is likely the Bullykutta decend from an amalgamation of various imports from as early as 2000BC untill the last few centuries, when Portugal opened trade in a monopoly from 1500 to 1600, followed by the Dutch and English.. From about 1500, dogs found along the coasts of many countries were traded and interbred, which made their way to America, thus even our breed called White English in South USA, developed from an amalgamation of various imports. Some of these imports may well have come from India and brought to the West Indies in the New World. The migrations into the New World brought various Mastiff type dogs to a world which had never seen such dogs. To think Mastiffs simply developed in various areas with no interbreeding of migrating tribes is pointless when considering the process of colonization of America.
[…] This breed has been designed for the vanity of man. It is not the ancient molosser dog of the Romans. That romantic fantasy hasn’t been confirmed in any genetic literature, and the real origin of this dog is with the farm guardian mastiffs of southern Italy. […]
Sorry but using an automatic translator.I wrote a book on the history of the dogs of war, by the Egyptians at 2011. The book was published this year in Italy.The molossians romani in Europe existed long before Alan dogs and their breeds such as Rottweilers descended, English Mastiff, Bulldog, Swiss mountain dog, Spanish great Danes and many others. Where would the army and the Roman conquest came the Roman dogs. The Romans looked after to efficiency and so if another dog was suitable the crossed with them. Dogs of war Romans don’t actually fought in battle but guarding borders and camps. The protection of livestock was entrusted to the Maremma Sheepdogs, because the legions were always accompanied by flocks of sheep and cattle traders providing troops. Then with the Roman legions moved war dogs military and Sheepdogs civilians. At one time the Neapolitan Mastiff was an excellent dog but now it has been ruined by the breeders. However there are still valid but in the countryside. Are like dogs, first courses were the same breed, until a few decades ago.
You have no proof, and you ignored my evidence from the British consulate.
I don’t care if you wrote a book.
I need GENETIC evidence.
And there is none.
It’s just people making up crap and speculating.
Dogs of ancient Romans were often breed, introduced in Europe by the persian armies of Xerxes and Darius. Prior to what we know historically there were not born that dogs of the tribe of Molossians were not breed but Sheepdogs, sometimes even crossed with wolves. Then the dogs of the Molossians were originally lupoidi. First I read of dogs of the Spanish conquistadors, probably the fiercest dogs that humans have ever selected and trained, from whom descended the horrific cuban bloodhouds and then the fila brasileiro, that war breeds descended from Portuguese and Spanish then crossed with other Dutch and English dogs, always war and then used for slaves and livestock. Certainly the fila brasileiro from work is not as great as those of today show and even a time was so fierce as it happens sometimes to see. The difference between the neapolitan mastiff/cane corso is that it is balanced race that while doing their job very well and are reliable not ferocious, unless really necessary. In short, reason and often better than us humans. Show breeders have ruined many great breeds of dogs.
Again, you can’t just make these claims from Ancient History.
How many dog breeds to the folklorists who think they are dog historians say come from Ancient Egypt?
I love the claim that dachshunds and Dalmatians are from Ancient Egypt.
Not even remotely possible.
The mastiff-type dogs are not all derived from a single source. It’s an absolute lie that they all derive from the Tibetan mastiff. It’s simply been disproved through genetic studies.
None of these mastiff-type dogs group with “Ancient” breeds, which are usually breeds that have been remained without crossing with other dog lines for a long time.
Please be more careful in trying to claim ancient status for breeds without any evidence from the genetic literature.
Historians are often quite wrong, and dog historians are quite prone to flights of fancy that make the whole enterprise ridiculous.
Do you not realize that the southern part of Italy has had a history since the fall of Rome?
This part of the world has had lot of trade, war, and conquest since then. Nothing has remained static. There is absolutely no way that a pure line of mastiffs existed in southern Italy since the fall of Rome. The Italian people aren’t “pure” Romans or Etruscans. They have genes from Arabs and Goths and Normans and other people who came into the region since then. The dogs are exactly the same. Closed registry breeds didn’t exist until very recently, and with this breed, not until after the Second World War.
Retrieverman, sorry but I did not understand what you mean. The report by the British Consulate says the true and 1908 that the southern free-tailed bat was and is used for cattle. As you know neapolitan mastiff is a name devised table and is incorrect, because these dogs were and are spread throughout Central and southern Italy since antiquity. The collar is placed with the points not only for dogs but also to the neapolitan mastiff by labour in the countryside, and even similar to dogs as courses still defend livestock from wolves, which we have always been. Indeed usually breeds a cane corso/neapolitan mastiff with a Maremma Sheepdog to have a better specimen with the qualities of both. I don’t know you but here the wolves there have always been and there are also very appreciated today, luckily number.Which genetic tests would you have for dogs of thousands of years ago? Let me understand. But if the races only exist by the end of the 19th century what you want if you knew before and you control you think there are? Where are the genetic evidence and how do you evaluate them today in relation to the past?It is true that today the Italians are not more Romans, as the Norwegians today not the Vikings or the Americans aren’t Sioux. But for sure the Romans were much more relevant to today’s Italians than any other people. Or not?Certainly a breed or type of dog does not remain pure for centuries if other peoples arrive with dogs. Applies to all people. But this does not mean that the type remains that or almost because it serves. I am also convinced that only certain breeds or types of dogs descended from the tibetan mastiff and certainly not all. Indeed, with regard to dogs of war who arrived in Europe had nothing to do with the Tibetan mastiff. Dogs spread with the conquerors: Persians, Romans, Mongols, British. Tibet was never a country of conquerors. And the tibetan mastiff was never a war dog. So how do not think at all that dachshunds dogs descended from dogs and Dalmatian Egyptians, isn’t it.I notice that you have a direct language and aggressive, I like, I’m going to use myself toward you.