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by Scottie Westfall

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« World’s largest carnivoran vandalizes cars in New Zealand
The potential for a breed of silver retriever »

The British white retriever?

October 2, 2012 by SWestfall3

Breed formation that results from fights over color is a pretty common occurrence in the modern dog fancy.

After all, the golden retriever only exists as a distinct breed because the flat-coated retriever fraternity of the early twentieth century shunned dogs that were of yellow or red coloration.

I’ve actually suggested that the much maligned silver Labrador retriever become its own breed. The color is not recognized in the AKC Labrador standard, and the current position of the American Labrador fancy is that it is nothing more than a shade of chocolate (liver).  It’s actually a diluted liver, which is a chocolate dog with the dilution trait. The color was said to have been introduced through Weimaraners, but a more likely source is the Chesapeake Bay retriever.

But in golden retrievers, a similar debate exists.

It’s a debate over what the “true type” of golden retriever is.

My personal position is there really can’t be a true type of this breed. It’s always been very diverse in terms of its conformation. It shows traits of the old Newfoundlandish wavy-coated retrievers and more gracile modern flat-coated retrievers. Everyone has his or her own aesthetics and preferences for a golden retriever. I prefer a darker-colored dog with less bone and coat, but someone else might be ga-ga over very pale creams with very strong Newfoundland features.

I’m okay with this diversity.

The problem is that the dog fancy at large abhors diversity.

There can be only one true type, and anyone who disagrees is a heretic worthy of the worst persecution.

The Canadian and American Kennel Clubs use a very different breed standard to evaluate golden retrievers.

The “native” strains of North American golden retrievers are derived from stock that was imported from the United Kingdom in the 1920’s and 1930’s.  The fashion in golden retrievers of that time was for more lightly built and darker dogs than the ones that typically win in the ring today, but the working strain dogs that are bred in North America are usually of this type– as are the ones bred in Europe.

The show dogs, however, have changed rather dramatically in both North America and Europe. Darker colors have largely been shunned in the show ring, and there has been a strong tendency to breed for cream colored dogs.  These cream dogs are often more heavily-built than the working dogs.

In North America, these lighter colored dogs are novelty.

And that leads to mass promotion of them.

There are many mass producers selling “white” golden retrievers online. The dogs are derived from European companion and show lines, but they usually inferior specimens. Europeans aren’t going to sell their top dogs to the Americans.

The AKC standard clearly states that very pale or very dark individuals are undesirable, but the Kennel Club and FCI standards call for gold or cream but penalize red or mahogany.  These colors are not defined in the least. Many dark gold dogs appear quite red, so they might be penalized.  Thus the show lines of goldens in Europe have focused on breeding for cream dogs that can’t be confused with red.

So we have this difference of standard.

And in the United States, people are mass producing “white” golden retrievers, which is ticking off a certain constituency in the golden retriever community.

The dogs are not according to the Canadian or American standards, but people want them.

And if this conflict continues, we’re going to see a breed split in the United States.

I honestly hope I’m wrong, but the growing popularity of the lighter colored dogs means that there is a constituency for them.

They could create their own club, draft their own standards, and if they really gained momentum, the golden retriever could be split in the same way cocker spaniels now are.

I’ve noticed that some of these European lighter golden retriever breeders are selling their dogs as “British white retrievers.”

They already have a name.

All they need is a registry and a studbook, and we have a breed in the making.

If the breed splits in this way, I think it would be very bad.

There are breeders who cross different types of golden to produce greater genetic diversity in their strains.

This is actually a very good idea.

But if the “white” dogs become their own breed, that entire gene pool will be sequestered off from the rest of golden retrieverdom.

This would be a major error.

I don’t have a good answer to this question, but my view is that the standard ought be more reflective of a diversity of color in the same way that yellow Labradors are.  In the AKC Labrador standard, it clearly says that yellows “may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog.”

That’s precisely the variation we have in golden retrievers.

I don’t know what would happen if British white retrievers became their own breed.

I think they would be cut off from international lines of golden retriever in the same way that American toy Manchester terriers were cut off from international lines of English toy terriers.

It’s unlikely that these American strains of cream retrievers would be sustainable, and it wouldn’t take long for any potential health problems to pop up.

I don’t know how to solve these problems that could lead to a possible breed split, but we do need to have a constructive dialog about it.

I think we have to respect the desires of other people to have a particular type of golden retriever.

If we can start from that understanding, then we might be able to move forward.

 

 

 

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Posted in golden retriever | Tagged American golden retrievers, English golden retrievers, golden retriever | 19 Comments

19 Responses

  1. on October 2, 2012 at 2:17 pm UrbanCollieChick

    Could you explain why a split off of “white” or lighter colored goldens woudl be bad, but a split off of color diluted labradors would be okay? To me they are both just narrowing of gene pools, and color dilutions have been known to cause alopecia in many breeds.

    Honestly, I’m just trying to assess here. I’ve always been up front about my limited knowledge of color genetics. I should really bookmark more sites or get a vet/college text or something. I know there’s a color genetics text just for horses.


    • on October 2, 2012 at 2:22 pm retrieverman

      Because they are going to have to outcross them to Chesapeakes and Weims to establish the breed. I think there is great potential for a silver retriever if they just left the Labrador altogether. If you look at photos of silvers they are all American field type Labs. You never see a really blocky silver.

      The lighter colored golden retrievers are already established, and you can’t really breed them with anything to maintain the temperament or the color.

      The lighter colored goldens are also the same color as the darker ones. It’s just the chinchilla gene working on the e/e.

      It’s really quite silly to fight over a shade that no one defines clearly. To me, red can be gold, but where one draws the line is a very good question.

      There is more room for reconciliation over the golden retriever color debate than there is with the silver and charcoal (diluted black) in Labradors.

      I think in the end, they are better off as their own breed.


      • on October 3, 2012 at 9:30 am UrbanCollieChick

        Well if you would have to OUTCROSS the labradors, then voila! Genetic vigor has a chance. That was my main concern. I haven’t seen enough silvers to notice if they had a field build vs the cobbier show build, but it sounds like a good retriever could come of this!


  2. on October 2, 2012 at 2:55 pm The potential for a breed of silver retriever « The Retriever, Dog, & Wildlife Blog

    […] Comments « The British white retriever? […]


  3. on October 2, 2012 at 3:33 pm lois

    This has been happening a lot, not only in this breed. Little bits of diversity going on in a whole bunch of breeds. I am seeing an evolution of the dog dome right before my eyes. The reason that i believe this is happening is: 1. Dog sports is not in the forerunning.
    If the sport of dogs took off and got more publicity and was more inviting to dog owners, easy to do, easy to join, easy to register, etc… Then i believe the old breeds could survive. As it is the greatest pull of dog ownership is heavily on companion dogs and not working dogs. Thus i go back to the all important Breed Clubs…
    There is no better time for the breed clubs to put it in gear! They must find away to protect each and every breed. They must hold fast and steady, use addvertising to their best abilities and to bring in the dog sport fanciers.

    I do not agree with changing standards of any of the breeds, but i do agree with opening up stud books. I also believe that the Breed clubs should appoint Breed Masters that are not dictators, but those who will work together with breeders from all over to help keep the breed healthy and to outcross when and where necessary in well written and democratic form within the clubs. That i think is the only answer to saving the breeds.
    As far as the white retriever goes, i respectfully disagree with you and i do believe that the white retriever should be split off to go its own way. If the white retriever owners would form a club and outcross as necessary there should not be a problem with the genes. It can be done correctly. It isnt easy and will take a long time, but this is ok… We all have time, the new breed has time and time is what is necessary to make a good strong strain.
    I am constently reminded of the loss of the American Cocker Spaniel of my time. gone forever are their true genes and ancestors.

    I wish the white Retriever well and if i could be of any service to them, i wouldnt mind. But i do think the Golden Retriever Breed club should be the ones to help them all out. Maybe have some board members show them the way? I’m sure AKC would go along with it as it is right up their money tree to bring in another rare breed.


  4. on October 2, 2012 at 5:51 pm Susan

    I recently got back from the GRCA National in St Louis and I have to honeslty say I cannot recall any really light or cream Goldens in the show ring. We (some traditionalists leaning slightly more towards field lines) commented how pleased we were with this.
    Another concern I do have though is the trend to longer bodied shorted legged Goldens, like a dwarf gene is being cultivated.


    • on October 2, 2012 at 6:11 pm retrieverman

      I’ve actually had that same thought;

      I don’t know if they are dwarfs or not.


      • on October 3, 2012 at 8:39 am massugu

        A neighbor owns an English-bred White Lab and she’s quite small. There may be a genetic linkage somewhere.


    • on October 3, 2012 at 12:26 pm Chris M

      Hi Susan – there were several “creams” in the breed ring at the Specialty. And last year the first Award of Merit went to a very light dog that I bred. The cream is becoming more common in the show ring but Tweed, Sydney, Max, Tanner and others were all in the ring at one point at that show. Also the judge often dictates what style of dog shows up.


      • on October 4, 2012 at 12:45 pm Susan

        Hi Chris,
        You are right – looking at the photos on line I do now see some creams, but did not notice any when I was watching the breed rings. I am not a breed ring afficionado (I was competing in obedience) but did watch some between obedience trials and when our dogs were in gun dog sweeps. Overall I just did not see a lot of light/cream Goldens there.
        I have to say that there were some really good looking dogs competing well in the hunt and field events the next week, beyond the WC/JH level. Nice to see CH dogs performing well in the field at Master level and field trials.


  5. on October 2, 2012 at 7:53 pm kittenz

    I’ve seen a lot of “white” Labs advertised, too. They are yellow Labs so light colored as to appear white. Most of them that I’ve seen have just a trace of yellowish color across the tops of the ears and back, although you can’t really call them “white”. They’re more of a very pale cream color.


  6. on October 3, 2012 at 9:34 am UrbanCollieChick

    One of my friends has a “white” lab that he is quite proud of! I would not call this dog a dwarf but he does lean more towards the cobbier English lab than the American lab. He thinks he has an “American Lab” simply because the dog is large – hitting 95 pounds when he is NOT overweight – but he isn’t taking proportions into account.

    The guy is your usual pet owner, although quite dedicated to his dog. I am not about to tell him his dog resembles the sausage labs more than the true hunting dogs. I would just be considered a meanie if I opened my mouth.


  7. on October 3, 2012 at 12:36 pm Chris M

    The AKC standard for the Golden says Color – rich, lustrous shades of gold. Extremely pale and extremely dark are undesireable. There is a photo of the colors at http://www.grca.org/pdf/education/AKC_BreedStandardforGRCAStudyGuide09.pdf
    The color inheritance of the cream and the dark golden is still a yellow dog – it is ee.


    • on October 3, 2012 at 1:15 pm M.R.S.

      Yes, the “cream” is an ee dog, as are all Golden Retrievers, but what is sometimes called “true cream” has an additional genetic factor that pales the coat color even more. The same factor can be found in White German Shepherds, Kuvasz, and several other breeds commonly known as white dogs.

      What one person calls “cream” may be “pale golden” to another. And so on, as there is an infinite gradation of the variations of the ee dog, especially when combined with the modifying effects of the various patterning genes (as those for bicolor, saddle-marked, sable, etc) that Goldens may carry.


  8. on October 4, 2012 at 5:31 am Peter Dawson

    No experience of golden retrievers, but we had a very contentious issue about ‘correct’ colour in soft coated wheaten terriers here in Britain in the eighties and nineties – and when I look at some of today’s near white specimens I can see the matter was never quite resolved. There always was a consensus based on the standard, which requires the colour to be “a shade of ripening wheat” which – no one disputed – is very attractive. However, although none of us knew exactly how it worked genetically, it did seem maybe there were different genetic routes to achieve similar “shades of pale” – and this confused most of us genetic illiterates back then!


    • on October 4, 2012 at 11:36 am M.R,S.

      Yes, the terriers are more complicated in regard to color genetics than are the retrievers. Wheatens, I suspect, have both the sable gene (which accounts for the dark tippings) and the gene for fading color (dogs get lighter as they mature– Kerry Blues show this very plainly). Goldens and yellow Labs, on the other hand, tend to darken as they age. Keeps life interesting!


  9. on October 5, 2012 at 10:35 am kittenz

    Coincidentally, I saw an ad on my facebook homepage this morning advertising “Lakeside Goldens-Community Page about English Cream Golden Retrievers”. I guess that people here in the US are also deliberately breeding for the pale cream-colored Goldens.


    • on October 5, 2012 at 12:41 pm M.R.S.

      There are good breeders here who simply prefer the British style of Golden; and there are some others happy to get on the bandwagon to market “rare English/British cream/creme/white/platinum” (?) retrievers. What is ironic is that so much of the latter’s stock is bought from Eastern Europe — Croatia, Estonia, etc. breeders happy to sell to the US for whatever purpose. Most responsible breeders in the UK (and other countries) are now very wary about selling overseas.


  10. on October 10, 2012 at 12:59 pm Choosing the right Puppy – Different Types of Golden Retrievers « Anna and I – A Retriever's Life

    […] a taste for the light cream colors, short legs and blocky heads. For more info, check out the Retrieverman‘s […]



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