I actually did not hear how this controversy worked out.
Do any of my bulldog-loving readers know?
I particularly like the fellow’s attitude about changing the standard.
It’s really quite amazing, isn’t it?
Can’t change ’em.
No evidence that the conformation would cause any health problem.
Not at all.
Probably one of those border collie trial people or an animal rightsnik, aren’t you?
Any chance of a transcript lurking anywhere? This doesn’t have captions.
Just keep in mind he’d have a hard time understanding us.
I am not sure of the results of the Bulldog breeding controversy, however I will say that I believe with proper breeding practices, the bulldog can be brought back to being a healthy dog once again.
I did a blog post about the difference between the bulldog of today vs. the bulldogs of 100 years ago after seeing the Sherlock Holmes movie. Here is a link to that post: http://historicalhound.blogspot.com/2010/05/its-elementary-watson-you-have-wrong.html
There are still those who will flatly deny that the modern bulldog is at all noticeably different than it was 100 years ago. It’s amazing. They seem to really believe that to change the current standard is to betray the ‘historic type’ of the breed:
http://smg.photobucket.com/home/Pietoro/tag/bulldog
It is amazing.
A lot of those old bulldogs– have long tails!
Pietoro – amazing album of historical dogs. I am thoroughly enjoying myself looking at all of those pictures.
Amazingly enough, I can date many of the dog collars that the dogs are wearing. A few of them look like exhibits that are currently in the Dog Collar Museum in Leeds, England or that have been auctioned at Bonhams.
In the next few months, I hope to recreate several of those dog collars.
I’m glad you enjoyed it. Mind if I add one of your photos (the old and modern style bulldogs side by side) to it?
Please feel free to add any of my photos. I spent an enjoyable three hours looking through your album yesterday.
The dogs I love best are mastiffs & terriers, but I found some older pictures of schipperke that I posted to my parent’s facebook page since that is their breed of choice.
I make dog collars for working dogs, but my passion is recreating historical dog collars. I found several images that I haven’t seen or have in my collection that had collars in them.
When my parent’s pups are full grown, I’ll make them jeweled collars just for fun.
Wow, even the historic bulldog was very cow hocked. Can an animal be an effective working dog with such cow hocked legs?
That’s because they weren’t really worked after 1835, when the Cruelty to Animals Act was passed.
The son of a butcher named Bill George then began promoting the old butcher and baiting dog as a family and gentlemen’s pet.
He bred toy bulldogs and even went as far as importing Spanish Alano dogs to make new strains of them.
They were never really worked for anything after 1835.
They were pets– less exaggerated perhaps than today.
But more like the modern Spanish Alano and the boxer are today.
The bulldog didn’t need to run far, or to have an “endurance gait” as do many other breeds. Strength and stability were of greater importance, and hindlegs with feet pointing somewhat outwardly can give more stability, especially against laterally-directed forces. As when tussling with an annoyed bull.
And yes, a lot of the early dogs (of many breeds) may well have been cowhocked because of poor nutrition, or other causes or simply because it wasn’t recognized as undesirable.
those old bulldogs look like a cross of the modern day boston terrier & american bulldog… which, coincidentally, my neighbor had a mix of and she had a long tail and could breathe easily.
You’d have to be blind and dumb (in the sense of “stupid”) to believe today’s English bulldog has anything to do with the bulldog of 100, much less 150 years ago. It’s an extraordinarily well documented breed. Most illustrations/photos before 1900 don’t even show the underbite, short nose and bow legs. They show dogs that look a lot like the dog that became the “pit bulldog”, or American pit bull terrier…. or Jen, the boston (bull) terrier which was just a regional version of the APBT.
Today’s English bulldog is a disgusting slug.
One of the problems in the UK was that indeed, the bulldog lost any function after 1835. In the US, the “American Bulldog” was still used for protection and to catch cattle. In Australia, a bulldog or “pit bull” type also was used as a catch dog. Consequently, the form of the dogs in the US remained very similar (if not identical) to the original working Bulldog of the UK.
Without a functional requirement, the old “more is better” syndrome set in — the competition in the show ring drove dogs to not just “meet the standard” but to “stand out” in some way — generally by exaggerating breed characteristics. If it was “broad” then somehow “broader” was better. Slightly undershot? More was better.
Obviously, one can’t institute bullbaiting. But weight pulling requires some kind of reasonable physical structure — it’s very popular in some American bulldog circles. It’s possible to breed “back” — or to simply bring in some American Bulldog genes to modify the British dogs. That the breeders will be willing to do so? probably not. I would have been thrilled if some well funded soul had started showing “old type” dogs and swung the breeding direction on their own as people tend to resent being “told” what to do. What remains to be seen is if there are to be any real adjustments in the dogs and if so, if they will disseminate out of the UK.
Peggy Richter.
Two posts mentioning bulldogs (well, brachycephalic dogs), that I read recently and found interesting.
http://dogzombie.blogspot.com/2010/08/day-in-life-ethics-from-large-and-small.html
http://dogzombie.blogspot.com/2010/08/veterinary-fact-of-day-chemodectomas.html
The cancer thing really threw me. Who knew a dog could be predisposed simply because of the way it’s shaped?
I heard that Boston terriers and boxers were cancer prone because they may have cancer genes associated with their very similar phenotype.
I had no idea that brachycephalic dogs were cancer prone because they were brachycephalic.
I am trying to think of HOW to improve the (British) Bulldog. Crossing it with an illegal (illegal in England) pit bull dog would NOT be an option.
What outcross (upgrade) would they want, that might work best? What traits would be desired? What traits shied away from?
Assuming this would work like the corgi into the boxer:
1. Bulldog breeders want to get away from the Bulldog’s too short of muzzle, so that might leave out the pug, ditto the screw or curled tail (said to be related to curves in other parts of the spine). Probably ditto the Boston Terrier as too many of them (the ‘properly’ bred ones) also have too short of a muzzle for the desired new look in the new Bulldog.
2. Probally leave out ALL of the terrier breeds because breeders fear recreating the bull/terrier aka the early pit bull type and don’t want another (locally) banned breed? NOT going for the agile look.
3. Probably leave out all large breeds? Not trying to make the Bulldog a larger breed, because what the public needs (and hence what the breeders should aim for) is a dog large enough that toddlers can play with it, but small enough that grandmothers, pregnant women, and older children can handle and control the dog by grabbing its collar and pulling.
So maybe, a dog of a weight that toddlers can NOT lift (so not drop and get bit) but that teenagers and elderly can lift and control. Someone with kids of various ages might find out what weight of bags, various people can EASILY lift (without pain, injury).
4. Most definately a breed/type of dog where the outcoss dog(s) can be reasonably assured to NOT be bringing in new inherited diseases into the Bulldog breed.
5. A good disposition for a pet dog. National symbols should not bite their families nor cause neighbors to hate the breed. Maybe no outcross to yappy barking noisy breeds?
6. Retaining the Bulldog look. Maybe we should stay away from an outcross that might change the Bulldog look? But look at the boxer/corgi dogs, after a few generations there was no signs of the corgi blood, except the short tail.
7. Coat. Would people want to stay with a short-coated out-cross? If so the beagle might be the right choice: short hair, no prissy image or looks, plenty of different lines to choose the outcross from, good nature, long history as a British breed, popular.
But might some people like there being two coat varieties on the Bulldog? Maybe, in addition to bringing in a less extreme face and form, and new variety of coat could be brought in too? Of course, some people would call only the new-coated Bulldogs an out-cross, but there would be both coats that are from the out-crossed line. Maybe that confusion would be good?
But in the end, most likely the main factor will be up to whoever is willing to do the work. Unless a group pays for someone else to do the work, much will depend on who is willling to step forward and take up the hobby.
One big factor is club acceptance. Would this be a more traditional improvement like the corgi X boxer outcross?
Or could it be left up to individual Bulldog breeders? For example: Could the Bulldog club make show classes for half, 3/4, 7/8, and “high percentage” Bulldogs from recognised outcroses? This would be where eligible dogs a) at least half bulldog, but less than 3/4 Bulldog, b) at least 3/4 Bulldog but less than 7/8 bulldog……….and so on.
But all Bulldog breeders could apply to make one outcross. They would have to apply as an acceptable dog breeder, and they would name the exact outcross that they wished to make. For example: My Bulldog Lady (X to) Sir Beagle is Good. Or Golden Retriever Lady (X to) Sir Bulldog Shortnose.
Those outcrosses would be shown as 1/2 Bulldog, their pups as 3/4 (after backcossing to a Bulldog, of course.) It would have to be done right with well planned rules and decisions.
Because otherwise why complain – except to warn the public about the health and conformation problems? People need to find a way to fix the problems not just point them out. Pointing out the problems is just the first step to saving the future of the breed.
Have you seen the boxer/corgi crosses?
http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES1.html
I don’t trust anyone that makes a profit off animals. If you love the breed, breed one or two litters a year — let them in your home, instead of cold cement kennels like what is shown in this segment and personally vet every home that gets one of your bulldogs. This guy’s “kennel” looks like a pound in the States where animals are regularly euthanized due to over population. I know I’m a bit off topic here so let me get back on: Breeding something that cannot even be born or survive on its own is just cruel. I think they should change the breed standards. But I guess my overall opinion is that we shouldn’t be BREEDING at all when animals are dying by the millions in shelters, or living horrid lives on the streets as strays across the world. It’s just plain irresponsible. And this is coming from someone who absolutely ADORES English Bulldogs — my own, Gertie, passed away from horrible complications of epilepsy (another ailment common to the breed) and I spent $30K on her vet bills in the last year of her life. It was horriible watching her go through all of that — she had it all – skin allergies, breathing issues, epilepsy – pancreatitis…. so many issues it was hard to count. I love her so much and love the breed so much that I don’t think they should be bred to the current standards AT ALL.